Car needs work, tough choices

[maydog]

Greetings,

I posted a while regarding a hard starting condition with my STS (167Kmiles). Well things have gone from bad to worse. It appears that a head gasket is leaking. On startup the exhaust reeks of coolant and steams. Now it is blowing coolant out the resivoir (sp?).

I have not taken it to do any pressure testing - that is the next step I guess. I have been mulling over my options and have done some looking at possible replacement vehicles. Here are my options as I see them:

1. Have dealer fix the car

I think this is my preferred option. I got a quote of $2200 if the head gaskets need replacing. The interesting thing is, they say they only timesert all the bolt holes if 2 bolts have stripped threads. This seems odd and it is a reputable caddy dealer. I would insist that all holes were timeserted.

My reservations on this route is that it seems that there is another problem with the engine that may drive up the cost. My car smokes pretty bad on a hard deceleration and it may have had slight hydrolock (due to stupidity on my part) some time ago. How much would valve work drive up the cost of gasket repair?

Also I have several small electrical gremilins popping up. Sometimes I get a stability message and have to restart the car to make it go away, the steering system does the same thing. The codes say something about reference signals - I have not looked too hard into it yet. The seat is haywire too - but I am pretty sure it is the switch.

2. Replace engine

Costlier than a repair, probably will not do this

3. Replace car

I do have the funds to get another vehicle, but I was saving it up for a new minivan for the Misses. I have done a preliminary check, test drive, of possible vehicles

2001 up Olds Aurora

2000 up Pontiac Bonnevile SSEI

1999 up Seville (SLS or STS)

1999 up 300 M, have yet to test drive

2002 up Dodge intrepid

The cars are nice enough, but I am pretty attached to my STS. Its hard to justify the cost for a vehicle that I just do not really want.

4. Fix engine myself

I am good enough, smart enough and gosh darn it, people like me. I feel that I am capable to do a replair and I have a engine lift, manuals and most of the tools. However, I do not think I could yank the engine from the bottom in my garage - it is not large enough to manuever the car and the engine module. The caddy is my daily driver, I do not think I could go weeks without it.

And that is where it is at right now. I have been doing a lot of thinking and really have not gotten any clarity on the issue. I does seem to help to writing my options down.

I guess I am looking for any advice, experience from folks in the same spot. If anyone knows a good shop that will perform reasonable repairs in the Minneapolis, St. Paul or Northeast Suburbs of Minnesota, that is a plus as well.

By the way, if I do decide to replace the STS, I would probably attempt to sell it person to person. I thought about asking $3000 or so, given its condition

[MAC]

You might want to try SolderSeal, Block Seal or some other sealant that will seal head gaskets. The stuff will likely do the job, but from what I remember the system will have to be completely flushed if Block Seal is used. It’s probably the same for other heavy duty sealers as well. I guess that $2200 must include a complete Time-Sert job? I would rather try my luck with sealant and see what happens.

[Barry94]

Tough decision, as there is no definite right or wrong approach.

In some cases a person simply gets tired of a car and any excuse to replace it can be found.

The only comment I can give is that when I purchased my STS several years ago, I discovered it had a burned exhaust valve. (Rear head)

I also believed I could pull the head and fix the valve.

So I did, with the engine in the car, as I did not have the facilities to lift the body.

Pulling the engine out the top looked more difficult than doing the job in the car.

Unfortunately I knew nothing about timeserts, and the service manual does not address the possibility of bolt thread failure later.

It did fail, about three years later. Three pulled head bolts.

By that time I had been on this forum and was armed with an abundance of information regarding timeserts and head bolts.

So, off with the head again. (In the car)

Without working too hard, it took about a week to complete.

That was about three years ago.

Since I have low miles on the STS, I never really thought about replacing the car.

If you decide to attempt the job yourself, there are plenty of members that can provide assistance.

Keep us advised of your progress/decision.

Barry

[maydog]

Barry,

So you were able to successfully timesert the engine, including the rear bank, within the car? I would have assumet that it would have been difficult to get the drill at the correct angle to perform the procedure correctly.

I still have not determined which bank was giving me trouble, maybe if I was lucky it would be the front bank, I could imagine that the front is a much easier repair to do in the car.

If an in car repair is doable - then the diy route is much more attractive. I would still need to find wheels for a week or two while I am working on the car. Finding the time to do the repair would be difficult. I have a job, a kid, a wife and school work I can not afford to neglect.

Are there any opinions on the block seal route? I have done some searching but, most of the feedback has been sceptical (as am I) about such a product. I suppose, however, it may be worth a desparation $20 to find out.

Thanks

[MAC]

Maydog,

I can only attest to Block Seal working for me. I did not try it on a Northstar though. It was a 4 cyl. Datsun B210. You might first want to see if there is sealer for head gaskets that doesn't need to be flushed. I think there are a couple of products that may do the job. Otherwise, Block Seal or something similar would be my first choice. I'm not guarantying it will work, but I think it's worth a shot considering the cost.

[KHE]

The only cooling system sealer recommended for the Northstar is the Bar's Leaks/GM pellets/powder. I would not recommend adding "solder-seal" or anything else other than what the manufacturer recommends.

If you have the dealer do the head gasket job definitely have them time sert all the head bolt holes.

If you do the job yourself with the engine in the car, I would bet that you'd need a right angle drill. That should be easy enough to procure - the money you save would definitely pay for any special tool you might need.

[Scotty]

How difficult is it to drop the carriage out for your average DIY home garage mechanic, does anyone know? How high must the car be to slide the carriage out? In my mind getting the carriage out without a lift appears impossible, what do you guys think?

[Ranger]

I recall a while back someone did this and had pictures of the front end raised. He and his father in law made a dolly for the engine out of 2x4's. As I recall the front end was raised quite high to get the engine out the bottom. Not the average DIY job.

[maydog]

I have the lift and equipment to pull the undercarriage out. My thoughts were concerning what to do with the dismembered vehicle - I cannot really roll it out of the garage - my driveway is slanted and my wife would not be strong enough to help me lift the frontend and roll out.

Due to my time constraints I am considering having a professional do the job. Unless I purchase another vehicle to drive while the repairs commence.

[maydog]

Yo, I have been out this holiday weekend and spend a lot of time with the wife doing some serious thinking.

I was able to test drive a few vehicles (300M, bonnevile SSEi and regal GS), and was able to wrangle a few good deals with the dealers, but I did not follow through with any replacement purchases. The cars just were excellent vehicles; they can not match my caddy however.

I figure if I can spend $3000 and get more than a year of good use out of my car and still be able to trade/sell it for a small amount then I about break even with the repair costs. If I spend >10K on a different car, then I have lost about $7k in opportunity cost - since I will be dipping into our minivan fund.

So it is off to the dealer shop tomorrow for a compression test and an eventual head gasket job I think. I also think there my be a valve issue as the engine smokes upon deceleration. I was quoted about $2100 for the headgaskets, does anyone know what valve work costs?

I am also a little worried about my exhaust, I had some issues with the cat in the past. Consequently, I hollowed it out and wired in a few resistors to fool the computer and avoid a light. I plan on asking to install a new cat if the engine is to come out - could I get in trouble for my previous mod?

I plan on taking the car to the Cadillac / Hummer dealer in the area unless someone reccomends another shop in the NE burbs or St Paul / Minneapolis area in MN.

Thanks

[navion]

Maydog,

On the 1994 at least, the manual describes pulling the engine from the top. I did it, and is wasn't fun. But it can be done. I made a check list from the manual and followed it pretty closely. I didn't have an engine tilting device when I did mine. (I do now.) And I would say that it is a must have item. As long as the engine is being pulled, Possibly you should give some thought to getting a lower milage engine from a donor car. I think that one with half the milage that yours has could be bought cheaper than what you have been quoted for the head gasket repair.

This is just a suggestion. I bought one that was still in the car & I started it up, drove it around the parking lot & checked for codes, checked for blowby & leaks etc. It has been a good engine. If you go this route, I would try to find a donor car that has been hit in the rear. And one that you can hear run. Even if they guarantee the engine, it costs to pull & replace it. So it is best to be sure. Before you reinstall either your engine or a donor, you should think about having those pesky case seals replaced.

Good Luck

Britt

[fubar0715]

Hey,

Just my 2cents........If you decide to go with a new vehicle, skip the Chrysler 300..

What a POS that thing is....I drove my brother-in laws a couple of times and it really is a heap of S#%T in comparsion to my STS ....Nevermind, that my STS was 5 years older and has 146k on the clock....That thing rode terrible and made lots of noises a car shouldnt make that is only 3-4 years old with 50k on the clock... The Intrepid has be an even cheaper POS!!!!! Just my opinion!

[maydog]

Hmm.. the 300M I drove was very nice (2002 with 60K), the only thing I did not like was its eagerness to downshift. It would downshift with the slightest application of throttle, otherwise its powertrain was smooth and rode nice. The interior was roomier than the STS or the bonneville.

But a 300m is not in my future, I decided to page through the phonebook for local garages that may work on my car. To my luck, the first place I called was a winner. I spoke with a guy about my symptoms. He said that he was familiar with the engines, he relayed the textbook story about how he had fixed others and the headbolts strip out after a few thousand miles. He even talked about trying helicoils, which failed.

Anyway he said that he would replace the engine for $1500 and give me a minimum 6 months warranty. Some of his engine suppliers apparantely guarantee the engines for 1 year, he would pass that on to me if that was the case. I was lucky enough to call him as he is changing shops, the current shop is about 1 mile from my house. He is relocating to St. Paul and will tow the vehicle to the new location for no charge. I will be his first customer at the new location.

I brought the car over this afternoon with my bike in the trunk (to get back home). I discussed the timesert procedure with him for a short period. He said that he had heard of it but has never used it. I also discussed a few other tricks I have learned about bypassing the strut electronics, etc. He seems to be a straight forward guy, I guess I will see because I made a downpayment on the engine and left him with the keys.

I will let you all know how this turns out, he says he gets a lot of business word of mouth. If you are interested in contacting him I will give you his number.

[scottfc]

The junk yards have lots of NS's and you should be able to get one for 850.00 ask them what the milelage was when it came in, you never know you may luck out. I bought a 635 bmw motor from one and it spec'd out at factory compression, looked brand new even in the oil cap. Would you buy a used car?, why not a motor...it's much cheaper then the dealer.

[maydog]

850 is a bargain basement price. I used several web searches and called several yards. The asking price for a sub 100K mile engine is in the $1200 - $2000 range. Even the 200K engines I found were over $900.

Maybe you could get such an engine from a yard without a computerized inventory system. I think these systems help the yards keep the prices competetive across geographies.

Even the 97 3.5L SOHC chrysler engine I bought a few years ago was $700 at a local yard.

If you have the hookups to source a N* that cheaply, please divulge the location - I am sure it would benefit others in the forum.

[maydog]

Howdy,

I picked up my car this morning and started it up. The grand total of the engine swap was $1845 for a 62K motor.

There are a few items that need attending, the car is dirty and there are some nagging codes:

ACM 1312 ???

ACM 1348 ???

TCS 1242 brake pressure modulator valve.

I assume that the 1242 is just a plug somewhere, can somebody tell me where that is? I have no idea what the other codes are, I cannot find them on alldata and my shop manuals are at home. They may be related to the AC system, because I am getting the "AC refrigerant very low" message.

Also I notice some vibration and noise in the tires upon deceleration - I hope that this is just an alignment issue, since I figure they did not realign after the install.

The mechanic told me to drive it a few days and note down anything that is wrong - leaks, etc and bring it back in for the final tweaks. I figure that I will just fix the things causing the codes myself and let him handle the mechanical nuts and bolts parts.

[adallak]

I assume that the 1242 is just a plug somewhere, can somebody tell me where that is?

I would check all the brakes for proper operation. If something wrong with ABS hydraulic modulator one or several brakes won't get fluid.

[Scotty]

1312 - A/C High Side Temperature Sensor Open

1348 - Very low refrigerant pressure condition

1312 may be a loose connection at the temp sensor

1348, did they discharge the AC system when they did their work or just move the compressor to the side?

[maydog]

I do not know if they discharged the system, they did not mention anything so I would figure they did not. Maybe they left one of the pressure switches is disconnected as well as the temp sensor.

I figure that they did not attach the BPMV ground wire to the motor. I found the diagram on alldata. The brakes work but, I think abs in inoperable. I will look at my car over lunch as I found all the needed diagrams to check out my hunches.

[adallak]

I figure that they did not attach the BPMV ground wire to the motor. I found the diagram on alldata. The brakes work but, I think abs in inoperable.

Check th ebrakes one by one. If one od rear brakes does not work you will not even notice.

[navion]

ACCK!

If they left wires unhooked, discharged the A/C & did not recharge it, etc. sounds like VERY sloppy workmanship.

Do you know if they dropped the cradle or changed it from the top? If they dropped the cradle, there is a chance that they pulled some wires in two.

Hopefully they just forgot to hook them up again.

I would say that a VERY close inspection of all wiring connections, both above & below is in order. Ask the mechanic point blank if any wires were stretched when removing the engine. Even if they are hooked up now the stretching could have broken the wire inside the insulation.

As for the vibration & noise from the tires? Unless there is something left loose, there should be no noise & very little if any vibration. Something is WRONG. Especially if you did not have these issues before. I would be checking ALL of this out before I drove it very much. If it needs an alignment, by all means do it ASAP. You can ruin your tires in just a few miles with an "eyeballed" alignment.

What kind of noise are you getting on deceleration? Hopefully they did not damage a CV joint.

The price installed sounds good for a 62K engine. I hope that all the problems are minor & they didn't actually break anything.

Let us know what you find.

Good Luck with your new powerplant!

Britt

[maydog]

I went out over lunch to do my inspection. I found that the temp sensor wires were pulled out of the plug. They were still connected to the metal tabs. I was able to place them back into the plug and snap the cover on - it should be okay.

I was also right about the BPMV ground, it is disconnected. I cannot get to it in my work clothes in the work parking lot. I will revisit it at home.

I also noticed that the bottom splash sheild is missing. I figure they may have left it off to look for leaks after their test drive.

I called the garage, my mechanic was out so I talked to this other fella. I asked about the splash shield, wether I would need an alignment and if the AC was drained. I would hope there are not any problems with the CV joints, but he did write on my reciept that I have a 6 month warranty on the work. He seems to be a decent guy and I do not think I would have any issues getting him to honor it.

The vibration and noise is a little deceptive. I will have to drive it again to really describe it fully. It felt like I was driving over those alert patches (??) on the road, you know, the rough patteren that they sometimes put on shoulders or in front of stop signs. Most of the time the ride felt smooth however.

[maydog]

You get what you pay for...

I would say that there is definitely something wrong with the driver side CV joint. On the drive home there was vibration, thumping and all sorts of racket coming from the wheel area. When I jacked up the car the joint had 20 degrees of total play and i can shake it up and down, the boot was shredded and grease is everywhere.

I fixed up the BPMV and charged the AC so the nag codes are gone now. Unfortunately now I get the Battery no charge message - I thought I was done with that. It appears that when the car warms up the alternator quits working. I am on my 4th alternator now and dont really want to get another. I am wondering if the guys at the garage spilled oil on it, I am pretty sure that is how my 2nd to last quit.

Up to this point I cannot recommend that anyone use this garage. I am expecting them to pick up the bill for the CV repair and to look at the alternator (I have a lifetime warranty on the alternator, so maybe I will have them replace it). Tomorrow I will give them the call, I feel a little bad though - the cost of another CV will almost offset their labor cost for the engine install.

I wonder if my car will make it back to them?

[maydog]

Its alive...

I think that I can finally say that the caddy is back to its ol self. Since I last updated this I had to take the car back to the shop twice. It is kind of funny really ( at least it is now), I took a look at the driver side inner CV joint after my first test drive to find that the axle had a lot of play and that something inside the joint had come loose and ripped the boot and shot out. I called the shop to complain and they told me to bring in the car. I picked up the car after the repair and I was a little confused when they said that the joint was bad because the clamp had busted. They said they replaced the axle and were going to use the old axle on another car after regreasing and fixing the boot.

After I drove the car 2 blocks, I was furious - because nothing was fixed. I had to get to work so I did not drive back to the shop. As soon as I got the car home I jacked it up and took off the tire to see the same ripped up fubar CV joint. Now I was really mad, what were these guys trying to pull?

After a timeout, I jacked up the other side (passenger) and noticed a nice looking clean new (or reman) axle. I had to laugh, I was pretty clear about what the boot and axle looked like - they probably thought I was trying to pull something on them. Anyway, I had to wait a week before they had time to take the car in again - They used the axle they had saved.

I got the car back Monday and after hooking up a few electronic items they missed, recharging the AC and getting the Axle replaced twice, I am code free and the car runs smooth and strong. I took it up to 110 nice and easy on an open stretch of freeway and everything felt tight.

I hope this is the end of this chapter.