83eldo Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Alright I really need help on this one as the problem is still eluding me. I own a 1983 cadillac eldorado. I bought it off my friend for 100 bucks. Here's the beginning of the story on what happened...My friend took the car with less then 100,000 miles on it down to las vegas and back when he got back to washington his car started to act up and his check engine light came on. It started pouring in a bunch of gas and not burning it. Thus blowing out black smoke when he started it or pressed on the pedal and he couldnt go above 40mph on the freeway and 10-20 up a hill. I never heard it when this was going on but he said the engine sounded normal it just had no power. He replaced the whole exhaust thinking the catelltic (however u spell that) convertor went. He also put a new dis/rotor on, plugs, and wires. Midas had told him that it was the egr and that the fuel injectors need'd cleaning and so did his intake manifold. He replaced the egr himself and brought it into midas as that only seemed to help a little tiny bit for a day. Midas put a new fuel regulator on it. Well actually just the diaphram inside the fuel regulator. I'm not 100% sure on what else they did but I dont think they did much else...cleaned the fuel injectors and intake manifold prob. like they said they were going to. They gave it back to him after the new diaphram and stuff and according to him and the mechanics at Midas it ran good for 2 days then all of a sudden it crapped out again and he was going 40pmh witht he pedal to the floor on the freeway. He broguht it back to midas going 15mph. I guess they tried to start it after he brought it in (or maybe they smurfed with it first then tried to start it and didnt tell hmi or me) and it didn't start. I bought the car off of him for 100 thinking that it was a faulty ecm. I replaced the ecm and still have a no start. My friend tested the fuel injectors and they were good. It's getting gas, spark, and air. My guess is the timming. I ran the trouble codes on it and it came up with 16, 20, 36, 52 i believe it was 36 and not 32. anyway 16 is open crank circuit. 20 is open fuel pump circuit (however it is getting fuel I can see the fuel injectors spraying. (btw I'm reffering to a 4.1 liter engine with TBI (2 fuel injectors) ). The car just doesnt start...every so often while I'm trying to crank I can hear a piston move and it sorta gurggle a little bit like it wants to start but It seems to me like the timming is off or something? It could be the prom possibly since I replaced the ECM. I am deffently thinking it has something to do with timming but then again i am also not sure at all at this point. Has n e 1 heard of this happening before? Or might know whats going on or what direction to send me in? Id GREATLY appreciate any insite you guys can give to me. Thnx!!! Also I checked the smell comming from the exhaust when i try to crank it...it just reaks like gas. Checked all spark plugs they get spark...deffently gets air (im pretty sure) I havent used a pressure tester yet. PLzzz HELP!!!! thank you to every1 that replies!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 I read this and many of the items that I would have considered you have repaired/replaced already, the CAT, the FPR, dist rotor plugs and wires. Was the resonator also replaced? I have seen the resonator collapse inside and block the exhaust. what concerns me here is that at some point you got it to run good for a couple of days and then bam it went back to its old self. I would re-look at the FPR and PCM, you may be able to get a PCM at a junk yard and swap it in cheaply, someone here however just got a price of about $80 for a 92 PCM. Hopefully they replaced the CAP, take a look at the COIL if it has one for cracks. Look for bad grounds, whereever you see a ground, take it off the frame clean it and put it back. What does the fuel pressure read at idle and while running at 40 mph, get a fuel pressure guage with a long hose and tape it to the windshield, you may need to fabricate one. In addition, consider that your timing chain might have jumped a tooth or more. I don't know when Cadillac started using steel timing gears but for a while they used gears with fiber teeth and the teeth tended to wipe off over time. Put a timing light on the car and check the timing according to the manual. I really don't know this engine well at all, let us know how you make out, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 The problem with your post is that their is too much to read.. Next time you post try a bullet format, its much easier to read. Pull each plug and see if they are wet, you won't be able to start with wet plugs. Did you replace the PCM? There is a way to see if your timing chain jumped, if I am not mistaken, you should bring the engine to TDC and the rotor should point somewhere in the area of the number 1 plug tower on the distributor cap, then look at the timing mark on the harmonic balancer, it should be (and don't quote me) near zero.... or at least visible to you. Change the oil and look for bits of plastic fiber in it I believe that if the timing chain teeth came off you should have some bits in the crankcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 DTC 16: Generator voltage out of range DTC 20: Open fuel pump circuit DTC 36: Open baro sensor circuit DTC 52: ECM memory reset I would start by looking at the connections in the baro sensor circuit and the fuel pump circuit. It is possible that the fuel pump is on it's way out but you need to do some troubleshooting rather than throw parts at it. One other thing to check is the vacuum line that connects to the underside of the throttle body. The main line is plastic but the connection is a piece of rubber hose. Over time, the rubber hose rots and a vacuum leak results. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkedrowitsch Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 I just went though something similar with my 92 4.9 SFI. Got it for free cause it didn't run. I can promice you the 4100s will NOT start with wet plugs. My car had Autolites and they didn't cut it. They fouled so bad that even though they sparked when I tested them, it was very weak and the car wouldn't fire. Same thing, smells like gas, every once and a while I'd get a sputter. I put the AC Delco platinum plugs designed for the car in and it fired right up and ran like a raped ape. Except for I also had a bad PCM that would freak out and read all kinds of crazy sensor readings as if an A/D converter was on the fritz. New PCM and it runs like a swiss watch now. So, my advice...get new plugs. If it calls for the AC Delco platinums, use them! I'm not sure about the TBI version but I bet they are the same because it uses the same motor except for different sized valves I think. I'd also think about trying a MAP sensor and coolent sensor if the plugs don't fix it. They are both pretty cheap and probably could use replacement anyway. The MAP helps control mixture based on engine load and VE, the coolent helps it to control the mixture for temp changes...if thinks it's cold, it'll keep the PCM in cold-start mode (sprays all 8 injectors at the same time) and flood it. Good luck! EDIT: Oh yeah, don't forget to check all engine harness grounds. Those will thow things for a loop too. A easy check is to hook a jumper cable to the engine somewhere like an alternator bracket and the other end to the '-' battery cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks, I'll check all that tomorrow. I was also wondering how do you get rid of the fuel in the engine if it is flooded? If I'm not mistaken if it isnt starting and gas keeps pouring in there it should be flooded because the gas istn going anywhere? So how would I get rid of the gas sitting in the engine? Oh and btw it was a code 18 not 16 *open crank circuit* And yes I did replace the PCM/ECM but I didnt replace the PROM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkedrowitsch Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 You could crank it over for a minute with no plugs in it...that'll air out the cylinders. I didn't bother. As soon as I put the new plugs in, it fired right up. I doubt the PROM is bad. If the PCM sees a corrupt prom, it'll throw a code. Every prom has a checksum that's verified every time you turn the key on before it reads it into RAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I was also wondering how do you get rid of the fuel in the engine if it is flooded? If I'm not mistaken if it isnt starting and gas keeps pouring in there it should be flooded because the gas istn going anywhere? So how would I get rid of the gas sitting in the engine? If you suspect it is flooded, hold your foot on the floor while cranking. That puts the PCM in "flood mode" and shuts off the injectors to clear the cylynders. I beleive that is correct even for the 4100's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I read that the baro sensor is built into the ecm why would it read an open circuit when i just replaced the ecm/pcm? **EDITED** I'll use alldata to locate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 It's been a long time since I've had a 4100 but I don't think the baro sensor is in the PCM. I would suspect you'd find it in the manifold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkedrowitsch Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Ranger: Correct. However, in my case that didn't help. The plugs were so fouled it was hopeless. The only thing that solved it was new plugs. Now, they were high milage autolites and may have had other problems...but once they were flooded, that was the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I tried holding the pedal to the floor while cranking. My friend said he still saw the fuel injectors spraying...I tried holding the throttle open from underneath the hood while cranking the car he said one fire more then the other. The other looked like it was spraying and sorta dribbling (however I didnt see it myself). The wires running to the fuel injector ready 15 ohms on one and 8 ohms on the other. My teacher said this did not matter however I am not so sure. What do you guys think? *I'm going to take the spark plugs out and crank the engine to unflood the engine* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Hook up a fuel pressure guage, you can buy one at Sears or your local parts house and report the pressure with the key on and then while cranking, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 HEY EVERY1!!!! thanks for all ur help I am now the proud owner of a running Cadillac. However I cant locate my trouble codes list yet and while it was running the service engine light was on. Code read: 30, 52. 52 if I remember right is nothing its normal when u run the truoble codes. 30 however is what is wrong with it if n e thing. Does any1 know what a code 30 is? Ill be able to go to school tomorrow or the library to look it up on alldata but If some1 could let me know before hand that'd be really cool. Thanks again every1!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 I just found my paper. Code 30 is a ISC curcuit problem. ummm Ill look around the internet tonight and ask some friends...what is a ISC? What does ISC circuit problem mean??? **edited** alright i found that ISC means...Idle Speed Control I havent took a electrical class yet so what would it mean by circuit problem? What should I test/replace/etc? could anything else stimulate this code? oh yea and I dont have the air filter hooked up to it with anything else that attaches to the air filter so could that cause/stimulate code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 ok third post and no1 has replied yet. I dont know much more then i did yesterday. The Idle speed control circuit problem is what was initially wrong with the car when it getting to much gas and not burning it. When i started the car it left a black spot on the ground. I tried driving it around the block once but it kept stalling and it was a real *smurf* after a while to get it to start back up and make it back into the driveway haha. Any1 ever had problems like this with their ISC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Okay, let's back up a sec... What was the ultimate fix for you writing yesterday that your car was up and running? It sounds from your last post that it's not running right again. Can you post again what your current symptoms are...go slow and please be detailed. Does it currently run different from when you got it? What parts have you installed since you bought it? The ISC is the idle speed control, as you know. Typically, problems with this include incorrect idle speed...either too high (engine racing) or too low (engine stalling). With your current problems, I'd try to fix those first, before looking at the ISC. A bad ISC should not cause it to run insanely rich and blow black smoke like it sounds like it's still doing. If it sits there and floods while the engine is off, it sounds like you still have a leaking fuel injection component...either an injector (maybe the one that was "dribbling"?) or a pressure regulator. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 83 eldo I have tried to read thru all your psots & the other responses. The item that sticks out in my mind is the part where you say that Midas replaced a diaphragm in the fuel pressure regulator. This may be possible on a 4.1, I don't know, but I would look there first. Also, get a fuel pressure gage like Scotty recommended to see what it is doing fuel pressure wise. I don't have a manal for a 4.1, but some of the others can give you the fuel pressure readings. ( I think Scotty's post mentioned something about the pressures.) Since you can see the injectors on your engine, turn the igniton on & look at them without the engone running. If you see fuel spraying or dripping, then you possibly have (a) bad injector(s), bad fuel pressure regulator or both. Once your plugs get fuel fouled, they are almost impossible to clean them to where they will operate normally. The black coating that you see is conductive and will short the plugs out. So even if you fix the problem that caused this mess to begine with, you will have to have good plugs before it will run correctly. But the #1 item that would be on my list is to ascertain that the FPR is not over pressurizing the injectors. Remember eliminate one thing at a time. Don't change several parts at once. Remember the old saying KISS (keep it simple sonny or something like that ). Good Luck, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 When I bought the car it wasnt running *replaced by my friend and midas* EGR replaced Dis/rotor/plugs/wires replaced intake manifold cleaned fuel injectors cleaned exhaust replaced FPR diaphram ***************************** Original problem: blowing out black smoke...getting to much fuel or not burning the fuel it gets correctly. top speed 15-45. It was brought to midas the 2nd time after they replaced fpr running 15mph midas tried to restart it to work on it wouldnt start. I replaced ECM (electronic computer modual). Still wouldnt start. Sparks where so bad that I had to replace then it started up. after it started the service engine light came on so i shut it off. It read code(s): 30, 52 (code 30 is ISC circuit problem). The next day (today) I restarted it. Service engine light was not on. I noticed black stuff on the ground from when i started it. Car ran fine while i was letting it idle. I let it Idle for 5-10 minutes then went to drive it. While i was reversing out the idle dropped so low or something the car cut out and died. I restarted it with little effort and went to drive it around the block. It died about 4-5 times each time getting harder to restart until finally i barely was able to restart it and get it into the driveway. Shut car off codes read: 30, 52 same as before. Took out a spark plug and they are getting all black again :'-( . I just spent 58 dollars on +4 spark plugs. The car runs as long as you just let it idle. But try to put it into gear and it might go for a second before cutting out. Thus the Idle Speed Control sounds plausable to me. Maybe the idle is to low and when i throw it into gear it drops to low and it dies. The black spark plugs and stuff comming out the exhaust maybe that is caused by the gas not all being burnt because of the idle being off and cranking it so much while I was trying to drive around the block. Also I would like to add while I was driving if I could get it into gear and go for a secon I would press down on the pedal. Sometimes I would go other times it would hesitate and die. And If I did go forward it wasnt for very long. Also I think while I was cranking it and it started to catch it started moving the car forward while in Nutural. I am pretty sure it was in *N* other wise I wouldnt of been able to crank the engine and start it... I tried to make this post easier to read and understand whats going on. I hope this makes it easier for you guys to help me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Did you use the Bosch Platinum +4? Be advised that if your idle is not good that eventually it could be the BOSCH. These engines run best on AC Delco plugs, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 ahhh uhhh ummm yea i used the bosch +4's lol. :-( wrong ones? wooops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
83eldo Posted March 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 ahhh uhhh ummm yea i used the bosch +4's lol. :-( wrong ones? wooops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 ahhh uhhh ummm yea i used the bosch +4's lol. :-( wrong ones? wooops... Well I dont know, I do know that I used them in an 86 Corvette and it would not idle correctly. See the AC Delco plugs are the correct heat range for the Cadillac and GM engines, and the engines are sensitive to this. If you find that the engine is not smooth don't overlook the plugs. Note that others have had good results with aftermarket plugs, but too many times I have seen problems using aftermarket plugs with GM engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 83 eldo, Hopefully you can return the Bosch plugs. I have not had good luck with them either. Until you discover what is causing your engine to overfuel to the extent that it fouls the plugs, I am afraid that your are going to spend a lot of time and money changing plugs. Possibly you could get some plugs that are one or two heat ranges hotter to use until you get the overfueling problem licked. One thing that wasn't mentioned was the aircleaner and the ductwork to the injector body.. I would make sure that the element was clean and not wet. A wet element will choke off the air flow to the engine. Probably not your problem, but you need to eliminate the simple things first. I try not to throw rocks at any business but a shop that primarily works on exhaust and brakes may not be the best choice for troubleshooting Cadillacs. I wish I had a manual on your engine. It is difficult to diagnose things at a distance with out any literature. As I think about your problem, I keep comming back to the excessive fuel/not enough air. it has to be one of these or a combination of these. When the engine does run, does it miss or is it hitting on all cylinders? You should probably check to see if the plug wires are installed in the proper order. As you can see, I am shooting in the dark here. I keep thinking (fuel pressure regulator). If they did in fact replace the diaphragm, did they reassemble it correctly? A missing spring or poppet valve misalignment could be the cause of all your troubles. Good Luck, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CadiKing Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 83 eldo, Hopefully you can return the Bosch plugs. I have not had good luck with them either. Until you discover what is causing your engine to overfuel to the extent that it fouls the plugs, I am afraid that your are going to spend a lot of time and money changing plugs. One thing that wasn't mentioned was the aircleaner and the ductwork to the injector body.. I would make sure that the element was clean and not wet. A wet element will choke off the air flow to the engine. I wish I had a manual on your engine. It is difficult to diagnose things at a distance with out any literature. As I think about your problem, I keep comming back to the excessive fuel/not enough air. it has to be one of these or a combination of these. Good Luck, Britt navion, Nice Job! Well Written! Thank You for the concise Explanation... I agree, best to find out about the gas coming in the cylinder... Acts just like my roto tiller when I forget to kill the choke under load! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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