Caddyinfo.com forum -vs- Clublexus.com

[theGman]

Bad *smurf*? What *smurf*?

No offense, but honestly that Lexus looks just like the other 108 models of 4 door sedans, with a face only a mother could love. How can one distinguish it from a Toyota, Honda, etc? I frankly looks very boring. Is that a Taurus? That new Chevy thing? It could be....! LOL

It might be a fine mechanical piece, but the looks just aren't there. Left brain engineers they have, but right brain stylists they don't...obviously, but for a reason...the Japs are fine people, and do have a humility about them as a nation that we could surely use. Unfortunately, that's why it shows in their styling...they don't want to stand out from the group. That's why no mass produced Japanese car will ever look "different" from the group. It's no accident, just the culture.

Remember Pearl Harbor; don't be a useful idiot. Buy American; yes, I know about all the foreign content in our cars, but at least the profits stay here.

I know it's a new era, but use a little common sense; a "one world economy" hurts us. We have nothing to gain and everything to lose in the long run.

[JasonA]

I think the fact that they over-engineer everything helps in the overall quality of the product.

I'll second that notion, but I'll only apply it to those vehicles I have experience with. For example, another compact truck example, I had a '95 Nissan 4x4 truck. 5-speed, 4-cylinder. My brother has it now. I love(d) that truck. Clutch was original. The rear axle ring gear was a 233 mm ring gear, 33 spline axles. Do the math --- that's a full 9.2 inches. That's bigger than a Dana 60, bigger than a GM 8.5" (obviously), bigger than the storied Ford 9" (obviously). And those are under full-sizers. Compare to the competition (GM 7.5" or 8.5", Ford 7.5" or 8.5", Dodge Dana 35 or Dana 44) and there is no comparison. Even Toyota didn't compare on that one (8"). I wouldn't put any compact American truck (S-10, Ranger, etc.) against my old '95 Nissan. It IS sad.

I think there are some vehicles the Japanese traditionally excel at, and I'm sure that's because they've been building them forever in their own country: small vehicles. The old Cavalier...going head-to-head with a Civic? No way. Unfortunate but true. But this is why I embrace free enterprise. Check out the new Cobalt!! That's such a different car from the Cavalier it's not even funny. Even auto rags are raving about how refined the new Cobalt is. I have no doubt some of the "premium" compact cars out there (like the Civic, the Jetta, etc) were the targets for GM. Without outside competition, domestic product would fall into mediocrity. I look to the cars of the 1970s as evidence of that. Japanese brands had not yet gotten a stronghold in this economy, and domestic auto makers were fat dumb and happy. The 1980s were troublesome, and we had some really poor product out there. I see many more '88 Accords running around than '88 Celebritys. I think we (domestic brands) have recently made great strides, and it will understandably take time to folks to start to accept domestic vehicles as equals to some imported brands...because we admittedly haven't been before, especially in certain vehicle size classes (like compacts).

Buying American SOLELY because it's American does us absolutely no good. If we did, Japanese competitors would never have had an effect on us, and would never have pushed the domestic brands' envelopes (because we, the comsumer, wouldn't have been buying them). The technology of domestic vehicles would probably be set back at least a decade. HOWEVER, that didn't happen. Japanese brands DID show up, and DID steal sales away from domestic brands, and domestic brands DID improve. There's no doubt about it.

Dumb it down to a REALLY simple example. You have two products: a Chevy Nova, and a Honda Accord. If we as Americans completely ignored foreign makes, there would be only one choice then...the Chevy Nova. Chevy ain't dumb -- if they realize they have no reason to improve they won't. What's the reason to improve? Losing sales. But that won't happen, because we're blindly buying American products. Suddenly our vehicle is in the stone age, because there's no incentive for the producer to improve the product. Let's widen the example to say we have two choices: any American brand, and any Japanese brand. Here again, if we confine our selection set to only the 3, 4, or 5 major American brands, they only end up competing against themselves. There are only so many innovations that 5 companies can come up with and compete with. Product development and competition would be stymied, because we're dealing with such a small selection set. But then, all of a sudden, open our selection set up TO THE WORLD. Now, all of a sudden, consumers have many more products to choose from, and many more innovations to awe at. Let's say for example that Mercedes-Benz invented anti-lock brakes. I don't know if they really did, but just for example... Would Cadillac have thought of ABS? Maybe. Was Cadillac FORCED to think about ABS, given the fact that Mercedes-Benz, an open-market competitor, was featuring that on their vehicles. Absolutely.

Buying American SOLELY because it's American does us absolutely no good...but buying American because the American vehicle is superior to all others on your shopping list...now THAT is good stuff! Outside competition is the one driver that improves our products here at home. That's why I don't like public subsidation...blindly buying a product simply because of the address of the home office. Diamler owns Dodge. Where do the profits go? Who knows.

I said that there are some vehicles that the Japanese traditionally excel at, and I don't believe any of us think "luxury cars" fit in there...and I say that because most of us don't have one. I'm sure the engineering is fine. I second the notion that styling is my biggest tripping point about Japanese luxury vehicles. They're jelly beans! They have no character at all. No prominent body line, no bright work, no hood ornament, nothing. My mother-in-law's '98 Camry was a nice car, but it was a complete appliance, a snore. I've only ridden in one Lexus, an ES300, and have the same sentiment, but I would since that's really a dressed-up Camry. I'm sure that's why most of us here like Cadillacs. That's certainly why I love the 92-97 generation Seville, and it's why I have one. The body lines are crisp and the car looks like no other. These (biased) eyes can spot a 92-97 Seville from a mile away. On the other hand, most Japanese luxury or mid-lux cars look all the same. Especially their roadster, the something-something 430. The car is so forgettable, I don't even remember the name.

[Scotty]

Jason, was that by chance your college thesis paper on multi-national corporations, the benefits of foreign competition, or the fall and rise of the american car industry? Very well written and thought out. Its sort of written from a Fox New perspective, balanced! I kept on saying let me read a little more and a little more and then I was done reading it! Good writing. Save that one! Mike

[gygmy]

Capital does not care about wether you're chinese, american, japanese or whoever. It just wants to flow uninhibited to the place of best return. It has no concious or loyalty. Some idealogs love this stuff. Paul Wolfowitz is up for head of the world bank. Blind belief in the system marches on as americans go into hock while working longer and longer hours. Religious zelots are our supposed enimies,[ they are ] maybe it it is those whose blind belief, or pretend belief, in one wonderful economic model who are leading us to a life of diminishing returns and restriction of individual rights. If you like american values, buy your products from those countries that hold those same values. Free elections, freedom of speech, equal rights. Choose to pay a little more because you think that if a person works 40+ hr.s a week they should be able to afford a roof over their head and some food. Elect representatives that act instead of making bogus sound bites. And above all, drive a Cadillac. Rant Rant Rant.

[Scotty]

gygmy, and this is why I have a problem with Chinese products, very low wages/benefits, poor working conditions and poor overall quality. We were wondering where our manufacturing has gone, walk through home depot, look at everything you buy these days its made in China. The quality is not good, but we somehow are benefitting from this with cheap goods while we continue to loose employment to the world. I don't know what the answer is.

Here is an interesting clip (Dec 11, 2001):

After 15 years of diplomatic struggle, China finally has become a fully-fledged member of the international trading system WTO.

But it comes after a long set of negotiations in which China has had to satisfy its trading partners, notably the United States and the European Union, that it is doing enough to open its economy to international competition.

The key turning point came in November 1999, when the United States and China signed a trade deal that was narrowly endorsed by the US Congress.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1702241.stm

http://www.taiwandc.org/wsj-2000-14.htm

Vote Smart

Sorry about this rant, its a sore subject of mine

[STYES]

If it wasn't for imported competition, the domestics would still be garbage. It is true the the Japanese learned everything they know about automobiles by learning from the mistakes of the US. But the trade defecit, and the need to be true to your nationality are still prevalent.

Scotty, you are not the only one here who knows what a SCSI (scuzzy) hard drive is. Years ago I bought a computer for nothing that had duel SCSI drives, and ran NT. Little did I know that this was a business computer, not meant for PC or internet use. It took me 6 months, but I managed to make it work just like a PC. Years later, I am still the PC "guru" to my friends, family, and at work. I had "ghosted" my final creation to transform many a two year old "workstation" into a reliable, indestructible, ultra cheap PC's for many people. But today's PC's are so cheap that my "invention" is not worth it anymore. A SCSI drive is like the ancient brick phone. Great for those who need it, but few need it anymore. I still have my original workstation, although I don't use it anymore. But it taught me so much about persistence, and the knowledge that anything can be modified. That experience still helps me to this day! Sorry for the tangent.

[KevinW]

The rear axle ring gear was a 233 mm ring gear, 33 spline axles. Do the math --- that's a full 9.2 inches. That's bigger than a Dana 60, bigger than a GM 8.5" (obviously), bigger than the storied Ford 9" (obviously). And those are under full-sizers. Compare to the competition (GM 7.5" or 8.5", Ford 7.5" or 8.5", Dodge Dana 35 or Dana 44) and there is no comparison. Even Toyota didn't compare on that one (8").

...snip...

I see many more '88 Accords running around than '88 Celebritys.

...snip...

Let's say for example that Mercedes-Benz invented anti-lock brakes. I don't know if they really did, but just for example... Would Cadillac have thought of ABS? Maybe. Was Cadillac FORCED to think about ABS, given the fact that Mercedes-Benz, an open-market competitor, was featuring that on their vehicles. Absolutely.

You might consider that the ring gear size was a requirement of the absurdly high final drive ratio (because of the anemic engine). What is the failure rate of GM 7.5" rear gears under normal use? I haven't been able to break the 7.625" unit in the Brougham despite 4400 lbs and almost 400 lb/ft of torque. The goal is to use the lightest rear axle assembly for the task at hand in order to reduce unsprung weight and driveline losses. Check out the EPA fuel economy ratings on that Nissan...

Around here, the remaining 1988 Accords are bondo barges or have holes so large that the contents of the trunk can be observed or you can't see anything through the thick blue smoke trail; Celebrity sheetmetal does not perforate so easily. Once you consider the costs of head gasket and timing belt replacements, you'd wish you had the Celebrity. I would check the production figures before drawing any "conclusions". Next time you see an old Accord, pull the oil filler cap and feel the blow-by. Be careful though, you may burn your hand.

Cadillac offered rear wheel ABS in 1970, known as TrackMaster Skid Control, well before MB. Buick had the first traction control system. I think you know already that Olds/Buick/Cadillac offered Air Cushion Restraint System in 1974. Why were both discontinued after 1976? There was no perceived benefit by the buying public!

[JLAWS]

Hey guys you know what's funny? I sent a copy of my 1st post to the clublexus.com site to the "Car chat" section and out of the 30+ post over there only one guy brings up Cadillac. And he just stated that they are now looking boxy looking. NObody is even mentioning Cadillac or commending them for trying to turn around the brand name. They don't even seem to "bat an eye" at the mention of Cadillac. What is really halirious is that I mentioned Mercedes briefly and all hell broke loose and things get off track. Former owners go on to bash Mercedes and call them basically garbage and inferior in quality. I guess Lexus owners don't even feel threatened by Caddy yet and the only brand to eventually conquer is Mercedes.

[Scotty]

If it wasn't for imported competition, the domestics would still be garbage. It is true the the Japanese learned everything they know about automobiles by learning from the mistakes of the US. But the trade defecit, and the need to be true to your nationality are still prevalent.

Scotty, you are not the only one here who knows what a SCSI (scuzzy) hard drive is. Years ago I bought a computer for nothing that had duel SCSI drives, and ran NT. Little did I know that this was a business computer, not meant for PC or internet use. It took me 6 months, but I managed to make it work just like a PC. Years later, I am still the PC "guru" to my friends, family, and at work. I had "ghosted" my final creation to transform many a two year old "workstation" into a reliable, indestructible, ultra cheap PC's for many people. But today's PC's are so cheap that my "invention" is not worth it anymore. A SCSI drive is like the ancient brick phone. Great for those who need it, but few need it anymore. I still have my original workstation, although I don't use it anymore. But it taught me so much about persistence, and the knowledge that anything can be modified. That experience still helps me to this day! Sorry for the tangent.

I wasn't implying that no one else knew what SCSI was. The statement was made that we are not computer savvy as a group, I was defending us as a group and touting this groups computer and technical abilities. If you could see the way I use a computer and the incredible speed and capabilities it possesses you would retract the ancient brick phone statement. And yes your tangent went straight at me, I have a long memory however, not to worry!

I am using this Adaptec adapter, it has two SCSI Seagate Cheetah X15 (5.6 ms access, 15,000 RPM) hard drives connected to it, along with a SCSI CDROM, and a NIKON SCSI FILM AND SLIDE scanner. To call the Seagate Cheetah a BRICK is like calling the Northstar a Briggs and Stratton. Maybe you weren't up on your SCSI, and yes IDE drives (mostly 7,200 RPM but now peaking at 10,000 RPM) are catching up.

http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/p...tra160+SCSI+PCI

Read about the Cheetah family

http://www.seagate.com/products/discfamily/cheetah

[Scotty]

I stand corrected the Seagate Cheetah X15.3 is a 3.6 ms seek time, try to match that with your IDE drives! Brick phone my arse!

http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsa...081,544,00.html

[Randy_W]

Hey guys you know what's funny? I sent a copy of my 1st post to the clublexus.com site to the "Car chat" section and out of the 30+ post over there only one guy brings up Cadillac. And he just stated that they are now looking boxy looking. NObody is even mentioning Cadillac or commending them for trying to turn around the brand name. They don't even seem to "bat an eye" at the mention of Cadillac. What is really halirious is that I mentioned Mercedes briefly and all hell broke loose and things get off track. Former owners go on to bash Mercedes and call them basically garbage and inferior in quality. I guess Lexus owners don't even feel threatened by Caddy yet and the only brand to eventually conquer is Mercedes.

Check the sales #'s before you assume who the competion is or isn't. Also if Toyota wasn't selling Avalons and Camry's with Lexus badges on them, they wouldn't even be close. (I've never gotten past the fact that the Camry based Lexus SUV, still has the Camry muffler and exhaust system hanging underneath.I guess they figured Lexus buyers were just worried about the badge it carried.)

Hey if you want to drive a V8 Toyota that looks like a '70's MB, go for it, just don't expect people that know better to love it, too! BY the way, the original LS400 was a much better looking car, at least it had some unique characteristics and wasn't a blatent knockoff.

[dkedrowitsch]

Hey Mike! I too have Ultra 160 SCSI drives in my PC. The drives support Ultra 320 but they don't make 32-bit PCI Ultra320 controllers. Doesn't matter, I'd never saturate the 160 bus anyway. I went with Quantum (Maxtor) instead of Seagate because I was still afraid of Seagate drives after a few problems with their drives a couple years ago. I recently bought a 300 gig Seagate ATA drive as a cheep solution for more storage required for my video editing because Seagate is now the only drive maker that offers 5-year warranty on ATA drives. So far it's been flawless so I'm starting to get my warm and fuzzys back when it comes to Seagate. I consider it to be the Caddy of ATA drives...cool, silent, reliable, and great performance although not a screamer.

Anyway, how many people here spend $1200 on their video card....raise your hand. *Raises hand*. Quadro FX 3000.

Anyone here know what an Amiga is? How about a Video Toaster?

[JasonA]

You might consider that the ring gear size was a requirement of the absurdly high final drive ratio (because of the anemic engine).  What is the failure rate of GM 7.5" rear gears under normal use?  I haven't been able to break the 7.625" unit in the Brougham despite 4400 lbs and almost 400 lb/ft of torque.  The goal is to use the lightest rear axle assembly for the task at hand in order to reduce unsprung weight and driveline losses.  Check out the EPA fuel economy ratings on that Nissan...

The final drive ratio wasn't out of line. Mine was a 4.325. Most 4-cylinder GMs are 4.10 if I recall correctly. People used to break them all the time, in G-bodies. They may not have been as strong as current models, though. In fact, I'm sure they're not. The 442 and Buick GN came with the upgraded 8.5" corporate axles, over the 7.5" in most of the rest and the 7.625" in the Monte Carlo SS. Off road, the thin 7.5" axles break like twigs. A few Toyota guys were on Nissan off-road forums looking for H233B axles to swap into their trucks, because they kept breaking the 8 inchers.

Fuel economy on my little 4x4 truck is better than any other 4x4 compact that I know of. I got 22 mpg, city and highway, it didn't matter. I've never seen an S-10 that would come close to that! Of course, you couldn't get a 4-cylinder 4x4 in most domestic brands. If you wanted 4x4, you had to get a V6 because the 4-cylinders were so anemic. Nissan did have the most powerful/torquey 4-cylinder in the truck market back then (134/154 respectively). No domestic 4-cylinder even came close. The Nissan KA24E engine (what I had) came out in 1990, with identical power/torque as my '95 model. The most recent DOHC 4-cylinder you could get in a Jeep Wrangler? 120 hp and 140-something torque. Over a decade later and still not even close.

Obviously I'm not a Japanese vehicle fan (I own two domestics now), but I do try to give credit where credit is due. With over 185,000 miles on that Nissan truck, it ran better than any 50,000 mile S-10 or Ranger I've ever driven. In the compact truck market, the domestic brands have fallen short for a long time. Hopefully, the new Colorado/Canyon will turn it around for GM, but I'm not hopeful. At only 2300 miles, our '05 2wd Colorado at work already is a rattle bucket.

[Scotty]

I consider it to be the Caddy of ATA drives...cool, silent, reliable, and great performance although not a screamer.

Anyway, how many people here spend $1200 on their video card....raise your hand. *Raises hand*.  Quadro FX 3000. 

Anyone here know what an Amiga is?  How about a Video Toaster?

Yes the Seagate IDE drives are INCREDIBLY quiet and I use them exclusively now, I built an almost silent computer for my cousin recently, the Seagate IDE drive is amazing. Don't scare me with the durability issues my drives have been running flawlessly.

WOW I thought I spent a lot for a video card at $400...

I have to laugh everytime I see a DELL on TV for $499...... when I consider that my video card alone costs $400.....NA there is NO difference in PERFORMACE

Wasn't the Amiga one of the original gaming computers, I recall the name I can't recall the details, was it like Commador?

[JasonA]

I guess Lexus owners don't even feel threatened by Caddy yet and the only brand to eventually conquer is Mercedes.

Why don't you go count how many of US go to ClubLexus.com, gush about our cars, and call them "bad *smurf*". THEN decide whom is really threatened by whom. We appreciate your comparisons between the actual forums, but what do you really expect when you start posting pictures of a Lexus and calling it "bad *smurf*"?

[dkedrowitsch]

The Seagates I had problems with were their bottom-end ATA drives....the Metalist I think they were called. I've had many Seagate SCSI drives and not one failure. I have had tons of failures of Fujitsu SCSI drives at work. We have a huge SAN with tons of fiber channel SCSI drives and we were loosing on average about 1 drive per month. Thank god for RAID.

Any old-timer SCSI user will remember Micropolis drives too.

The Amiga was WAY ahead of it's time. Back in the late 80s Amigas had a 4000 color high resolution display, stereo sound, 32-bit CPU, automatic interrupt selection "plug and play" expansion with their 16-bit Zorro bus, SCSI interface, preemptive multi-tasking OS with a Unix-like architecture and file system and a Windows-like GUI (when MS will still pushing Dos 3.3)...WAY ahead of their time. They were owned by Commodore and poorly managed and eventually went belly-up in the early 90s. I did some video editing on an Amiga 4000T with the Newtek Video Toaster system. A really cool platform that's less popular then it deserves. Actually, some places still make hardware for Amigas....I added a PCI bridge to my A4000T and ran a Voodoo PCI graphics card, SoundBlaster PCI, and PCI Ethernet on it for about a year before selling it. Anyway...I get nostalgic about them all the time.

Now they are back in some form called Amiga Inc. I think, marketing their new Amiga One. I nice idea, but will NEVER catch up to PCs or Mac.

[JasonA]

Jason, was that by chance your college thesis paper on multi-national corporations, the benefits of foreign competition, or the fall and rise of the american car industry?

No, but it was similar to a paper I wrote for a Global Economics class I had at Virginia Tech. Not a thesis, but a paper nonetheless.

I have these debates with my dad a few times a year, so I've had plenty of time figure out how I really feel about the subject. Although he's owned four Datsuns in the past, he's pretty strong on "buying American" now. I disagree that that's the best for our country and our products, to only consider what country the headquarters office is in, but I guess time will tell...

[JLAWS]

[Check the sales #'s before you assume who the competion is or isn't. Also if Toyota wasn't selling Avalons and Camry's with Lexus badges on them, they wouldn't even be close.  (I've never gotten past the fact that the Camry based Lexus SUV, still has the Camry muffler and exhaust system hanging underneath.I guess they figured Lexus buyers were just worried about the badge it carried.)

Hey if you want to drive a V8 Toyota that looks like a '70's MB, go for it, just don't expect people that know better to love it, too! BY the way, the original LS400 was a much better looking car, at least it had some unique characteristics and wasn't a blatent knockoff.

"Hey if you want to drive a V8 Toyota that looks like a '70's MB, go for it, just don't expect people that know better to love it, too!"

With irrational comments like these, I've decided this is my last post on "this topic." I'm not even going to bother looking at more of them. It is not worth my energy. Some of the post have been at the same level as those coming from an elementary school playground.

I looked at other topics on this site, mainly the ones re: 2 instances where owners blew their low mileage engines and needed a new one without a warranty. I was just disgusted at the fact it seem like these people who made their legit complaints were attacked and accused of trying to bring Cadillac/GM down. Most went on to call that person a troll and continued to harass rather than help.

I really sense some strong insecurities from Caddy owners and close mindedness. I've owned 3 Caddys and I'm still in my 20's. I took one test drove of the LS430 and I bought the car that same day. From that experience I've decided to consider other brand of vehicles.

However I do like the fact that you guys attack all non Caddy owner like piranhas after fresh bait

Oh yeah, here is a black 70's MB, yeah I really see the comparisons ..

[Scotty]

video editing

We sure do have a lot in common, the reason I built this machine was for video editing. I need to install an HT processor soon, its sitting here on the shelf looking at me!

[Scotty]

JLAWS, could you post the link to the Lexus site?

[Randy_W]

JLAWS, could you post the link to the Lexus site?

Scotty , he can't, he isn't reading any more posts here!

[Randy_W]

Oh yeah, here is a black 70's MB, yeah I really see the comparisons ..

You're right, I was in a hurry, I should have said "looks like a knock off of a '90's MB", my mistake. I know you won't see this, since you aren't looking anymore, but if you do, you are the insecure one. You posted a Toyota on a Cadillac forum fishing for approval. Now that's insecure!!!

[dkedrowitsch]

With over 185,000 miles on that Nissan truck, it ran better than any 50,000 mile S-10 or Ranger I've ever driven.

jadcock: FWIW I drove a old 92 S-10 for about a year while I was finishing up my current every-day driver. It had 235,000 miles on it's all origonal TBI 2.8 and clutch and hummed along like the day it pulled off the lot and only burned about 1/2 qt every 3,500 miles. The only thing it needed the whole time I drove it was a heater core, and that only took 2 hours to do myself. I personally knew the people who owned the truck from new and the most major work they had done to it was ball-joints at 175K miles. I drove that little truck HARD! Flat shifting, floating valves, thrashing in mud, bed-hopping burnouts, AND did $3500 damage to a minivan (other drivers fault) with only a little mark on the front bumper. I'm not sure what the hp/tq specs were on the truck but I could fry first and second and churp 3rd pretty hard.

I'll agree it must have been a freak truck, it prooves Japanese stuff isn't the only reliable long-term vehicle. Oh and I also got about 20 city 26 highway with it.

[KHE]

We were wondering where our manufacturing has gone, walk through home depot, look at everything you buy these days its made in China. The quality is not good, but we somehow are benefitting from this with cheap goods while we continue to loose employment to the world. I don't know what the answer is.

Here is an interesting clip (Dec 11, 2001):

After 15 years of diplomatic struggle, China finally has become a fully-fledged member of the international trading system WTO.

But it comes after a long set of negotiations in which China has had to satisfy its trading partners, notably the United States and the European Union, that it is doing enough to open its economy to international competition.

The key turning point came in November 1999, when the United States and China signed a trade deal that was narrowly endorsed by the US Congress.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1702241.stm

http://www.taiwandc.org/wsj-2000-14.htm

Vote Smart

Sorry about this rant, its a sore subject of mine

Some of the goods may be inexpensive but we are paying a lot more for other items - oil, gasoline, steel, aluminum, and copper come to mind....

[1SICKLEX]

China is going to really change the world. We are talking about over 1 billion people and the country is just ripe for new business. Their demands will only increase.