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Got a free 92 Eldorado, need help!


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To make a long story short I got a 1992 Eldorado 4.9 PFI for practically free. It has 172K miles on it in physically near perfect shape and brand new tires. The interior needs some cleaning and the Bose Gold system just squeals at me when I turn it on but this is minor stuff I can easily take care of. I was given the car with the understanding that it doesn’t idle and it’s not drivable. I really like the car and would like to straighten it out and make it my every-day driver when the weather gets nicer. I’ve never owned anything this nice! Here is what’s happening….

The battery was dead so I hooked up a jumper pack and the car fired right up and ran smooth. It also ran smooth in drive. After a minute or two it started to idle down then it simply quit without a stumble or hiccup. Two things I noticed while it was running was the display said it was in "Set Timing Mode" between telling me all systems were OK and to press the brake to put in drive. The other thing I noticed was the tach wasn't working. I couldn't get the car to turn over again because the jumper pack wasn't charged enough to start a warm V8 so I gave up and went home.

Two days later I put a fresh battery in it and tried again. This time, it was hard to start and when it finally did, it ran like crap and was cutting out and smelled like it was running rich or lean...couldn't tell. I was getting messages on the display about engine overheating but I just started it so it was impossible. I also noticed that this time the tach was working. The SES light was also erratically flashing. I grabbed the snap-on scanner and ran the drivability scanner program and there were all kinds of codes stored like both banks running lean, temp sensor low or open, and the display on the dash said to service the ride control. So I used the scanner to cleared the codes, shut the car off, and turned the key back on. The SES no longer signaled there was a code, but the car would no longer start. It cranks fine and tries to start but won’t “catch”. It almost sounds like it’s not getting enough spark or the cold start function isn’t working. Last night was much too windy and cold for me so I gave up.

So, this is where I’m at with it.

I don’t have a service manual and this is my first Caddy. I’m pretty familiar with GM EFI, TBI and TPI…I’ve customized my own fuel trim tables to adjust for camshaft changes etc. But I’m totally new to this early 90’s Caddy SFI system.

If I had to take a guess I’d say it might be a bad ground, bad ignition module AND bad temp sensor, or a bad PCM. Tonight I plan to take a closer look if it’s not so frigid out so maybe I’ll have some more info later tonight. I’d like to try replacing the temp sensor first, perhaps it doesn’t know the engine is cold and therefore isn’t engaging the cold start injector or firing all 8 at the same time or whatever it does for cold start (I’m not sure how this caddy EFI stuff works!).

In the meantime, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction!

Thanks!!

Dieter

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Welcome to the board, and congrats on your find! I love my 92 eldo! Post whatever codes you are getting, and I'm sure someone here will be able to help you out. I have the Service manual for the 92 eldo, so I can look up codes if you need me too.

-dave B)

Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k

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davedog: That is a gorgeous car! I love those newer style wheels! One thing I noticed on everyone’s pictures is their Eldorados have the emblem in the grill. Mine is like a hood emblem and not in the grill. Is it possible for me to swap the grill out so it's like yours? BTW, my car is white. I'm not sure what trim package it has, but it loaded. It has power everything, power moon roof, Bose system (broken), and the heated windshield.

Where is a good place to find those wheels? I'm missing two center caps for the original wheels but I'd rather find new wheels then pay out for new center caps.

JimD: Thanks for the tip!! I'll be sure to order one ASAP.

.

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dked,

Looks like you have a lot of work ahead. First things first- drain the coolant by removing the lower radiator hose and refill with fresh 50/50 green prestone mix . ADD 2 -3 TUBES OF BARS LEAKS POWDER. Clean the throttle body and the EGR tubes inside of it. Check all the cables and connection. Change the motor oil. Check the ATF. Write down the codes.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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adallak: Actually it just had a new radiator installed 6 months ago due to one of the tanks leaking so it has somewhat fresh fluid. I doubt anyone dumped any bars leak in it but I happen to keep a spare tube in the trunk of my Sundance so I'll add that as soon as the car runs enough for me to make sure it mixes in rather then lump into the bottom of the tank. :)

Hopfully the cold wind lets up soon beacuse i'm stuck working on it in the shop parking lot since it currently can't move. I plan to check all connections etc when I plug in a new temp sensor tonight, as well as cleaning the throttle body etc.

The trans fluid is slightly dirty but not burnt. I normally never touch the ATF on high milage auto trans unless it's low because in past experiences it has done more harm then good.

Thanks!

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davedog: That is a gorgeous car! I love those newer style wheels! One thing I noticed on everyone’s pictures is their Eldorados have the emblem in the grill. Mine is like a hood emblem and not in the grill. Is it possible for me to swap the grill out so it's like yours? BTW, my car is white. I'm not sure what trim package it has, but it loaded. It has power everything, power moon roof, Bose system (broken), and the heated windshield.

Where is a good place to find those wheels? I'm missing two center caps for the original wheels but I'd rather find new wheels then pay out for new center caps.

JimD: Thanks for the tip!! I'll be sure to order one ASAP.

.

I believe the emblem on the hood means it's a regular base eldorado instead of the touring coup model, but i could be wrong (help me out on this guys). As far as switching it out goes, i'm sure you could swap grills for one with the emblem if you could find one, but if you removed the one on the hood you'd be left with a hole. I've seen some eldos with both the hood emblem and the grill emblem, presonally though, I prefer the grill emblem only.

I found my wheels on ebay, they were brand new OEM GM wheels, never installed on a car. They are supposed to go on a 2002 Devile, but I think go great with my eldo, IMO.

Cardio-doc (a member on this board) can probably find your center caps, or new wheels if you choose to go that route. PM him, he'll help ya out.

Post some pics of your eldorado, I'd love to see it! Good luck, and don't give up, you'll LOVE driving it!

-dave B)

Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k

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davedog: Cool, thanks for the info! Actually, the hole isn't in the hood, it comes out of the top of the grill plastic. So swapping it wouldn't leave a hole. Hmm...now where to find a grill. :)

I'll fix the car no problem. I'm sure it's something simple, and as soon as I understand Caddy's version of GM's EFI, it's all down-hill from there. For example, instead of an IAC for idle control, it uses an electric motor to move the throttle lever!? Haven't seen that since A/C idle compencators on carburators! LOL But on the other hand, it uses the same temp sensor as my 1992 4x4.

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davedog: Cool, thanks for the info! Actually, the hole isn't in the hood, it comes out of the top of the grill plastic. So swapping it wouldn't leave a hole. Hmm...now where to find a grill. :)

OH! Opps! LOL I stand corrected....i must have been thinking back to my old 87 deville.....it was mounted directly on the hood.

Well, if you can find the grill, that should make it alot easier!

Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k

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I would check the throttle position sensor. Sounds like the computer does not know how open the throttle is. I would also find out how the computer reads the RPMs. If your tach works every now and then it could be the device that reads the RPMs

But after re-reading your initial post, you have probably already thought of that. Looks like a job for bobinski

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Ok, I had some time to mess with the car tonight. It's not getting spark. This is verified by plugging a screw driver into one of the plug wires and holding it near ground while cranking the engine. I then tested for power to the HEI and wasn't getting any when testing between the coil ground and ignition +. However when testing to the engine ground got steady power. So there was a grounding issue at the connector or in the distributor. So I cleaned the ignition module connector and then got good power readings but it only tried to start for a second then went back to dead cranking. I checked for spark again and still none. Just to double check I shot some ether down it's throat and still nothing.

So....I'm hoping I have a bad ignition module, bad pickup/hall effect sensor. I'm not familiar with this version HEI, but I do know on remote coil HEIs they will spark without the ECM so hopefully this is the same way and I'm on the right track. I'm sure I am because a bad ignition module would explain why the car thought it was in set-timing mode. If it's like the TPI motors, removing the tach signal from the ECM allows you to set the initial timing without the ECM affecting it.

Any comments?

I didn't get to write down any codes but I did figure out how to get the car to display them by using the diagnostic mode so I don’t have to mess with the Snap-on scanner. Tomorrow I'll write them down.

Does anyone have a list of possible codes and what they mean? How about some information about the 4.9 PFI HEI?

I may pick up a new module, cap, and rotor on the way home tomorrow and give them a try.

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I have the '92 manual that covers the Seville and the Eldorado. Post all the codes you are getting and I'll translate them for you.

Email me through this site when you are ready and I'll check back on this message.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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A traditional GM flash paper clip 'code' reader on a Cadillac 4.9......will put the car into 'set timing mode'

The ALDL paper clip trick does not work on Cadillacs. You must use the onboard dignostics or a scan tool.

That being said, the timing could be a mile off by some tire store tune up. Same as on Chevy trucks. There is a specfic timing set mode.

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Oh don't worry, I'm not using the paper clip type of scanner. It's a $7000 Snap-on Modis system. :) But even with nothing in the ALDL connector I still get the message that says I'm in "set timing mode".

Anyone have diagrams on where the rotor should point at TDS, and how the distributor body should be positioned in relation to the intake? A firing order would also be great. :)

Also, I'm still looking to find out if I should be getting spark even without ECM control. In my truck or Camaro, even if I pull the ECM out of the vehicle, as long as the HEI is still getting power, I could spray gas in the intake and it'll fire. I'm wondering this so I can narrow my problems down to the distributor.

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Here is the Set Timing procedure from my 91 4.9 Manual, FYI. The firing order is stamped on the engine some place, I could not easily find it in my manual. I have to go out but there is a HEI Diagnosis chart in my manual if you want I can email it to you, send me an email address in a PM. I will look through my manual and try to figure out why you are getting the set timing all the time. Post your codes and we can help.

post-3-1110461751_thumb.jpg

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In terms of where to point the distributor try this as a starting point:

Bring #1 up to TDC (compression stroke), then point the contact on the distributor rotor to #1 tower on the cap and that should give you a good starting point. Take out the #1 spark plug and with a light or hanger you will see or feel the piston at TDC. Sometimes it becomes necessary to remove the valve cover to see that you are at TDC as both rocker arms will be 'loose' when the piston is at TDC as the valve springs won't be compressed and the valves closed. Mike

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It's close enough to run smooth when it actually has spark so the cap is aligned to the rotor good enough for now. I'm wondering if the rotor is off a tooth from the cam and the distributor is turned far enough to cover it up. Example, if it's 90 degrees off, you can twist the body 90 degrees and still have correct timiming. However, this could confuse things with the SFI and the hall effect sensor.

So what I'm looking for is where to point the rotor on the engine, not the cap, when the motor is at TDC.

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Cool, same as a small block chevy. I love GM... :)

I found a list of codes as well as a HEI diagram for this car so I'm armed with some pretty good info when I get off of work to play with the car some more.

http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/dtcobd1.html

http://www.fieroaddiction.com/49wiring.html

Now all I need to know is where the rotor is supposed to point when the motor is TDC so I can verify the rotor to cam timing is correct. The reason I'm so worried about checking is I had a friend with a TPI 350 that would stall as soon as it tried to idle down and after a week of fooling with it, it end up being the distributor off a tooth. The ignition was timed fine, but the ECM was firing the injectors out of time that only affected the idle.

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In terms of where to point the distributor try this as a starting point:

Bring #1 up to TDC (compression stroke), then point the contact on the distributor rotor to #1 tower on the cap and that should give you a good starting point. Mike

Mike already told you.

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Where is a good place to find those wheels? I'm missing two center caps for the original wheels but I'd rather find new wheels then pay out for new center caps.

.

Yup, Cadillac wheels = Cardio-doc.

I purchased newer Cadillac wheels from him too.

I went with the new CTS style on my 95 STS.

As Ferris Bueler would say "It is so choice, if you have the means, I would highly recommend picking one [them!] up" lol

Congrats on the new Eldo, they are a beautiful car, underrated in my mind, yet unique because of that.

Oh, and Welcome to Caddyinfo too, this is without question "The Zone" for your Cadillac!

" ...'took my Cobra down t' the track, hitched to the back o' my Cadillac..."

- Jan & Dean, 'hey little cobra'

Scott

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rbrantlee : No, he didn't. See my reply to him:

It's close enough to run smooth when it actually has spark so the cap is aligned to the rotor good enough for now. I'm wondering if the rotor is off a tooth from the cam and the distributor is turned far enough to cover it up. Example, if it's 90 degrees off, you can twist the body 90 degrees and still have correct timiming. However, this could confuse things with the SFI and the hall effect sensor.

So what I'm looking for is where to point the rotor on the engine, not the cap, when the motor is at TDC.

He told me where the rotor points in relation to the #1 tower on the cap. The whole distributor could be twisted any which way....so I can't use it as a reference. I need to know where the rotor points in relation to the rest of the motor so I can make sure the distributor is clocked correctly.

For example, on a small block chevy, at TDC the rotor points twards the front driver side of the block. Then, to clock the distributor you line up the #1 tower to the tip of the rotor.

I could pull the distributor out, spin it 180 and stick it back in. Then just rearrange the plug wires on the cap so they match the rotor position and it would run but not be correct. See what I mean? Now do you know what i'm looking for?

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