Willie Hank Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 I'm pretty sure that the rear 6x9s for non-Bose systems is "10 ohms". I know the fronts are 4 ohms (I'd already replaced mine with Infinity 5.25s). They sound much better than OEM, and the attached tweeter is swivel mounted for directional aim. But seriously, the rears are 10 ohms. I had difficulties removing the back seat to access the rear speakers, otherwise I would have replaced them and let this forum know if using typical 4 Ohms speakers would cause a problem or not. I believe the 6 x 9 rear speakers I replaced on my non-Bose '93 STS were 4 ohm. Any decent aftermarket speaker will be an improvement over the OEM speakers. It is a pain to get to them, you first have to pull your rear seat cushion, then your rear seat back to get to the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 I think this system is going to sound great when I am done, the 6 x 9's are three-way, if I am lucky I am replacing 4 ohm with 4 ohm. I would be very surprised if they would put 4 ohm in the front and 10 ohm in the back but who knows. It looks like I am going to use my old OEM tweeter brackets, it looks like a good fit. Except I would love to redirect them upward a bit.. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 4 ohm wired in series with another 4 ohm = 8 ohms. A parallel connection would = 2 ohms. I'm thinking your front OEM drivers were wired in series (8 ohm). and the rear speakers are at least 8 ohm or 10 ohm drivers. Time will tell, sleep tight. rek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 4 ohm wired in series with another 4 ohm = 8 ohms. A parallel connection would = 2 ohms. I'm thinking your front OEM drivers were wired in series (8 ohm). and the rear speakers are at least 8 ohm or 10 ohm drivers. Time will tell, sleep tight. You know, that lost me. I have a hard time with ohms for some unknown reason, and especially a hard time with speaker impedance it drives me crazy. The weird thing is that I use to build outstanding speakers but all the drivers were 8 ohm, but in reality the high end drivers/components were readily available, you were just making proper volume boxes with terrific dampening. I need to take a basic course on electronics, any good books on this stuff? You know Impedance for Dummies? Now I'm going to lose sleep, I get lost very quick reading a book on this, maybe a course would be better. You mean wired in series? front to back, or side to side? See im confused. Or do you mean, wired THROUGH the driver, positive in negative out, im lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 4 ohm wired in series with another 4 ohm = 8 ohms. A parallel connection would = 2 ohms. I'm thinking your front OEM drivers were wired in series (8 ohm). and the rear speakers are at least 8 ohm or 10 ohm drivers. Time will tell, sleep tight. You know, that lost me. I have a hard time with ohms for some unknown reason, and especially a hard time with speaker impedance it drives me crazy. The weird thing is that I use to build outstanding speakers but all the drivers were 8 ohm, but in reality the high end drivers/components were readily available, you were just making proper volume boxes with terrific dampening. I need to take a basic course on electronics, any good books on this stuff? You know Impedance for Dummies? Now I'm going to lose sleep, I get lost very quick reading a book on this, maybe a course would be better. You mean wired in series? front to back, or side to side? See im confused. Or do you mean, wired THROUGH the driver, positive in negative out, im lost Mike: The theory of Ohm's law for "direct current" and "alternating current" circuits is available in any number of books and I agree that reading / understanding the theory can be a pain. The problem is, outside a lab environment with expen$ive test equipment, reading is as good as it gets. Ohm's law theory for alternating current circuits is a journey into applied trigonometry. However, once you grab the concept, it all falls in place. The difference between 'resistance' and 'impedance' is simple, but significant. A college book store would be a good first stop. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Hey thanks Jim that's what I will do, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 4 ohm wired in series with another 4 ohm = 8 ohms. A parallel connection would = 2 ohms. I'm thinking your front OEM drivers were wired in series (8 ohm). and the rear speakers are at least 8 ohm or 10 ohm drivers. Time will tell, sleep tight. You know, that lost me. I have a hard time with ohms for some unknown reason, and especially a hard time with speaker impedance it drives me crazy. The weird thing is that I use to build outstanding speakers but all the drivers were 8 ohm, but in reality the high end drivers/components were readily available, you were just making proper volume boxes with terrific dampening. I need to take a basic course on electronics, any good books on this stuff? You know Impedance for Dummies? Now I'm going to lose sleep, I get lost very quick reading a book on this, maybe a course would be better. You mean wired in series? front to back, or side to side? See im confused. Or do you mean, wired THROUGH the driver, positive in negative out, im lost Now that I have removed JLAWS size 12 boot (deserved), and am sober, let me chime in here. I really don't know why 'rek' is digressing on the issue of series and parallel wiring. You are not adding additional speakers, you are simply replacing them, and I certainly bet they are being driven by a 4-channel amplifier, so each of the four speakers is wired directly to a channel and have no relationship with each other. As long as you match impedance when replacing speakers, you are pretty risk-free. Older speakers used to be 8 ohm, most speakers nowadays are 4 ohms, which allows amplifiers to push more power, and they are more stable at that impedance. I bought an MTX 2-channel amplifier that was bridgeable to twice the power output at the same impedance, that is, it was rated at 2 channel x 200 watts at 4 ohms, or bridgeable to 1 channel x 400 watts at 4 ohms. Bazooka sells both 4 ohm and 8 ohm subwoofers, so I bought (2) 8 ohm subwoofers and wired them in parallel, thus I attained a total 4 ohm load. This meant each subwoofer "shared" the 400 watts RMS load and they were wired directly to the single channel, thus would see 200 watts each RMS. The are rated at 250 watts continuous power. Same impedance speakers will share the power, odd impedance speakers gets tricky, but it is a simple formula. Now, had I wired (2) 4 ohm subwoofers in parallel, I would have ntted a 2 ohm load and I would have "overdriven" the amp at appr. 800 watts RMS (400 watts per speaker), causing distortion, clipping, and eventual failure of the amp, speakers, or both. The sound level (dB level) would have been greater. Conversely, I could have wired (2) 4 ohm subwoofers in series to attain 8 ohms, would have "underdriven" the amp at appr. 200 watts RMS (100 watts per speaker), causing good, clean sound, but wasting money as I should then have but a smaller amp. The sound level (dB level) would have been less. Again, match the speaker impedance with the amplifier rating ( or replace speakers with same impedance as the OEM has done the math), buy speakers that has a continuous power rating slightly greater than the amps RMS power level (not peak power level), and you will be okay. A simple reading of OHMs law will certainly help, but not necessary. If you know an EE (electrical engineer), ask him for one of his books on circuit analysis. I can't imagine the rear 6 x 9's are anything other than 4 ohms, power amplifiers have the same rating across all four of their channels and you have already verified the front speakers are 4 ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks Willie for your help, I plan on installing the front tomorrow. I have a question however, my tweeters have three wires connected to them one on each side of the capacitor, a red connected to the speaker (+) and a black connected to the speaker (-).. Have any idea what the extra wire is before the cap? I was just going to connec the (+) and (-) to the new crossover and connect the tweeter wires to the tweeter... Thx, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Your OEM front speaker (L or R) is comprised of two drivers (Full range and a Tweeter). If they are wired in series (amp+ to + on full range, - on full range to + on tweeter, - on tweeter to - amp) the total impedance will be 8 ohms. You can check the DCR (R=resistance) with a Digital Multi Meter. The measured resistance (ohms) will be close (usually lower) to the rated impedance, of the driver. Measure or guess, is up to you. I'm just trying to help. rek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks Willie for your help, I plan on installing the front tomorrow. I have a question however, my tweeters have three wires connected to them one on each side of the capacitor, a red connected to the speaker (+) and a black connected to the speaker (-).. Have any idea what the extra wire is before the cap? I was just going to connec the (+) and (-) to the new crossover and connect the tweeter wires to the tweeter... Thx, Mike Are you talking about your old tweeters or new ones? I am thinking your old tweeters have the filter integrated into it, and the new tweeter if just that, with a red and black lead since it has a crossover box upstream. No matter, in the end, both old and new tweeters should have only two loose wires, red and black, to connect to the source signal. It looks like you have selected a CV two-way component speaker system, so you will mount the tweeter and midrange/base speaker wherever you want, and you should have a small plastic crossover box (it should fit in the palm of your hand), which you can locate wherever also. I recommend you mount it out of sight, preferably close to the amplifier. The (+) and (-) source signal coming from each individual amplifier channel should connect to an incoming (+) and (-) on the crossover, and there should be two sets of outgoing (+) and (-) terminals to connect to tweeter and midrange/base speaker. Thus, your crossover should have six terminal lugs on it. You probably do not have control at which frequency the crossover internally divides the signal between the speakers, but that is what it does, it diverts high frequencies to the tweeter and lower frequencies to the larger midrange/bass speaker. It appears your old system did this right at the tweeter with a simple capacitor (filter), the aftermarket crossovers are more sophistricated than that, they will create an frequency overlap between the two speakers to assure full seamless dynamic range. You will find the sound noticably improved. When I replaced by OEM rear 6 x 9's with aftermarket Pioneer 3-way 6 x 9's, the bass response was much deeper and the overall sound level was louder. I attribute that to the speakers being more efficient than the old OEM speakers, as the impedence was the same, 4 ohms. I have ripped out many stock systems and have never found the OEM speakers to be of high quality. When in doubt, read your installation instructions, they should cover all of this, do not worry about the old tweeters not looking like the new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Your OEM front speaker (L or R) is comprised of two drivers (Full range and a Tweeter). If they are wired in series (amp+ to + on full range, - on full range to + on tweeter, - on tweeter to - amp) the total impedance will be 8 ohms. You can check the DCR (R=resistance) with a Digital Multi Meter. The measured resistance (ohms) will be close (usually lower) to the rated impedance, of the driver. Measure or guess, is up to you. I'm just trying to help. I now see where rek is coming from, the OEM speakers probably are wired in series or parallel, sharing the signal, as the capacitor is downstream, integrated into the OEM tweeter. I suspect they are wired in series, thus 8 ohm impedence. Don't fret, .....not to complicate things, but we are not talking about a powerful amplifier, I think your CV component system probably "nets" something close to 8 ohms, and will work fine. Bottom line, bring your incoming channel signal to the crossover and outgoing signals from the crossover to the individual speakers, just like the instructions say. DO NOT WIRE THE INDIVIDUAL TWEETER AND MIDRANGE/BASS SPEAKERS IN SERIES OR PARALLEL, you will negate the effect of the crossover, and possibly "smoke" it. If what I am telling you does not coincide with your intructions, then FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS, as I don't have the benefit of seeing the hardware, but I would be very surprised they are any different than the many component speaker systems I have installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks Willie, I will advise how this comes out this weekend, Mike I was considering tapping off the 5 1/4 speaker since signal is full range what do you think of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks Willie, I will advise how this comes out this weekend, Mike I was considering tapping off the 5 1/4 speaker since signal is full range what do you think of that? Yeah, if that is what is coming from the amplifier, but remember it will go into the crossover inputs, and then you will come off the crossover outputs to the individual speakers. If you are considering keeping the 5-1/4" speaker full range, I would not do that, when it has to mimic high frequencies along with low frequencies, the low frequencies will suffer. Let the tweeter do what it was designed to do, and allow the 5-1/4" speaker to create the midrange-low frequencies. Your full dynamic range will be much better in the end, and believe or not, probably will be easier on your 5-1/4" speaker (less taxing). Don't worry about too much low end boom, a 5-1/4" driver just isn't capble of producing deep low-frequency air pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 I replaced the 6 x 9's Friday night before a 600 mile weekend trip and the improvement is amazing. Had to pull the rear seat and seat back, drill 4 holes to mount the new speakers, soldered the connections and it sounded incredible, the improvement in bass is amazing and it goes surprisingly deep. The old speakers were 10 ohm as some here said, and I replaced them with 4 ohm three-way Cerwin Vegas....The hardest part was getting the seat snapped back in.... Thanks to all who helped me with this, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc_caddy Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 I replaced the 6 x 9's Friday night before a 600 mile weekend trip and the improvement is amazing. Had to pull the rear seat and seat back, drill 4 holes to mount the new speakers, soldered the connections and it sounded incredible, the improvement in bass is amazing and it goes surprisingly deep. The old speakers were 10 ohm as some here said, and I replaced them with 4 ohm three-way Cerwin Vegas....The hardest part was getting the seat snapped back in.... Thanks to all who helped me with this, Mike Mike, I'm glad that the 6/9 install went well... swapping 4 ohms for the 10 ohm OEMs. I was concerned about doing the swap myself. After your success, I'm going to attempt it on mine. (Also investing the hour or so to get the rear seat in and out!) Obviously the stock amp can handle the impedance. Did you have to drastically adjust the "fader control" to balance out the sound rear and front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Getting the seat out was not too bad, the hard part is un-hooking and hooking the seat cushion. The back is held in place by four nuts, two under the seat cushion and two in the trunk. I used my dremel with a drill bit to drill the holes I marked and to ream them out to size as the dremel is low profile enough to clear the rear window. On very loud volume I push the sound to the rears as my front 5 1/4's don't handle the volume well and begin to 'fibulate' On normal volume I have it cracked just a bit toward the rear, but thats my personal preference. While they are 4 ohm vs 10 ohm, these speakers have much more heft in magnet weight and total power handling capacity, that I think its good that they are 4 ohm. I get clean sound from the 6 x 9's with the volume control at 80% (have not cranked it all the way as there was no need), and the amp does not clip and there is no distortion. I would definately recommend these speakers to replace the stock 6 x 9's, while at the same time noting that there are much more expensive 6 x 9's out there that I have never heard the performance of. But I must say that these speakers with the stock amp are very impressive and handle bass very very good and they go very very deep. Sat night I picked up a Reggae station from Hartford, Ct and the bass was outstanding... I might add that the OEM amp is not capable to producing good highs IMHO, and I find myself cranking the treble up quite a bit. Now this COULD be my old ears having a high frequency LOSS , but there is definately no sizzle in the highs.. Once I determine that each speaker has two wires going back directly to the amp, I plan to purchase the plug and install an aftermarket CD unit with a flush built-in look to it.. I do believe that each speak runs back to the plug at the amp. PS: as a point of reference, I own B&W DM 2000 Studio monitors, Hafler 220 amp and Hafler 110 pre-amp and had the B&W 801 monitors on loan for 6 months once. Wow! http://stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/506/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 You will be amazed by the great sound that comes out of aftermarket receivers. On my unit you can put lows to the rear speakers and highs to the front. I have kenwood 6x9s and phoenix gold 5 1/4 componets. I really like the tilting tweeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Thanks, I think that is what I will do at some point find a nice CD unit that has a built in look to it, with some power, my highs are lacking badly. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Anyone want these old OEM 6 x 9's from my DEVILLE? They are in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_M Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Hey while were on the subject of 5 1/4 door speakers, can anyone give me a brief rundown of how to install them? I heard I may have to cut a hole in some wood or something. THANK YOU..........rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Hey while were on the subject of 5 1/4 door speakers, can anyone give me a brief rundown of how to install them? I heard I may have to cut a hole in some wood or something. THANK YOU..........rob I am sorry Rob I can't help you with your year. Do you have the Bose system? If you do all bets are off. I did not have the Bose system and aftermarket speakers were no problem at all, the Bose system creates some problems I believe. Do you have the manual, I would look your manual over. My new 5 1/4 speakers were a direct replacement no problem at all, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_M Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Yeah its BOSE, What a pain it the *smurf*. If one thing goes it all goes. I want to put a new Alpine deck with Polk Audio speakers all the way around. Just want to install speakers myself. The 6X9's are a breeze.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 I don't see the big deal about installing in a car with the bose system. All you have to do is run new wires to the doors from the new aftermarket deck to the new speakers. I guess it is time-consuming but you should have no trouble with it. Do people not want to install new speakers with a new deck or vise versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Yes that is true, its not prohibitive just time consuming, plus you get to utilize good heavy guage wire, etc! The existing wires are very thin for my car, I am considering buying a new head unit with more power, a better FM section and an AUX front panel input for my IPOD (when I get one).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Yes that is true, its not prohibitive just time consuming, plus you get to utilize good heavy guage wire, etc! That's the last time I use 4/0 for speaker wire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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