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Otten33

Cadillac Deville crank but no start

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So I bought a 2005 Cadillac Deville Base 195K on it about a month ago.  Paid 1k for it because it didn't run and it looks like new.  Previous owner came out to the car one day and it wouldn't start and he couldn't figure it out.  This was about 2 weeks after he had fuel pump put in.  I have owned this car before, 2004 Cadillac Deville DTS, and pretty familiar with these cars as I was constantly having work done on it.  Anyways I bought the car and towed it on a Uhaul car hauler to my garage where I have been troubleshooting for the last couple weeks in my spare time.  I immediately figured it was a ground fault problem as I have seen this before on my previous Deville.  I checked all the ground locations: off the battery, ground to body, ground to engine and they all checked fine.  I checked all relays and fuses that were related to Ignition and fuel.  I also checked with a multimeter and was getting 12.4 volts at the engine.  This led me to believe that it wasn't a ground issue and must be a starter issue.  So I ordered a starter and dove into that project.  Again I had to replace starter on my 04 Cadillac Deville so I know how to do it.  However once I accessed the starter the bolts were seized on and eventually I stripped the bolts.  I tried using extractor sockets on it with little success.  Must be really seized.  I talked to a local machinist and he suggested breaking the bolt tabs on the starter to access the bolts and allow penetrating oil to work.  This is a last resort to me.  Little worried that I could do more damage.  I had previously soaked with penetrating oil and even candle wax but the bolt was so tight I can't imagine any was working its way in.  I also tried using a propane torch to heat the bolt up but only got heat on it for a couple of minutes as my propane canister ran dry. So I decided to test the starter while still on the car by jumping the ground post to other post and then ground to little post on the starter.  Hopefully that makes sense.  Both actions showed the starter working as it should.  So led me to believe the starter was fine.  I had battery load tested and it showed bad battery.  I replaced with new Group 79 battery 840 CCA.  This is the battery designed for car.  Still no change.  Crank but no start.  I hear the fuel pump run.  I even disconnected the fuel lines at the engine and placed in a container and turn the car to on.  There seems to be plenty of fuel.  Not sure on pressure but I would think there would be enough to start the car.  Maybe I'm wrong on that.  I checked the codes on the dash screen and with my cheap scan tool.  Scan tool picked up: P0016 Crankshaft sensor, P0122 Throttle Pedel, P0171 Lean Bank 1, P0174 Lean Bank 2, P0300 random misfires.  Sorry for abbreviated code terms.  The dash screen were several driver and passenger door module codes and a few lost communication codes which doesn't surprise me because of the bad battery and draining battery several times trying to start car.  I did some research on crankshaft sensor and that could cause a no start situation.  Last night I replace both crankshaft and camshaft sensors.  It was a real P.I.T.A, took me way to long and was very tight but I got it done.  Tried to start car and no change.  I know from the Lean Bank 1 & 2 codes that the coil packs are probably bad but could this cause a no start situation?  Again I had to replace coil packs on my 04 Deville.  They were kind of expensive if I remember right and had to replace whole pack instead of individual ones.  Does that sound right?  Is there way to check these in a junk yard?  Multimeter and checking continuity maybe?  Should I go back to looking at starter?  With mileage, I am sure that it needs spark plugs but would that cause a no start?  Thanks for any advice!  Kind of tired having this car in my garage and I want to drive it!  

 

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Lean codes P0171 and P0174 means you have a vacuum leak they have nothing to do with the coils.  

The lean codes could cause the P0300 misfire code also

Borrow a fuel pressure gage and test fuel pressure, the presence of fuel means nothing.

You did not state what engine this is 3.6 or NS?, unless I missed it.  The 3.6 had timing chain issues that would cause a no start.  

Just a constructive advice, huge tight paragraphs like that are difficult to absorb.  Next time try breaking up similar thoughts.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Thanks for advice.  Just wanted to let people no what I had done so that they don't mention those things.  This is the Northstar V8.  When codes revealed lean BANK 1 and Lean BANK 2, I assumed they were talking about banks of coils.  Thanks for reply!

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A few things to try.

Check for spark. Spark testers are cheap.

Spray a small amount of throttle body cleaner into the throttle body. See if it fires. If it does it is fuel related. If it does not it is likely spark related.

To date I have never had to change a starter on a northstar. Been to them but not to replace them. Ingenius place I say. protected under there.

When the engine cranks does it sound normal, or does it spin a little faster?

That generation was notorious for the crank sensors. Thus likely why you are seeing those code(s) I would say it is a possibility that one of those would cause a no start as If it does not see rotation it may not fire. 

 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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@rockfangd  , he stated that he replaced both crank sensors and it still doesnt start.  I thought that would have solved the no start.  Isn't it difficult to check spark on coil packs?

One thing, were you careful to keep the top wire on the top sensor, after the swap.

 

If the starter rotates the engine I would not be concerned about it.  

The lean codes 171 and 174 mean that unmetered air is entering the intake, there may be a rubber plenum between the rear of the throttle body and the intake, they develop holes in the bottom from EGR condensate.  Check the bottom of that rubber plenum.

If you can borrow or rent a fuel pressure gage, checking fuel pressure is easy and you can eliminate that.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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44 minutes ago, BodybyFisher said:

@rockfangd  , he stated that he replaced both crank sensors and it still doesnt start.  I thought that would have solved the no start.  Isn't it difficult to check spark on coil packs?

Lol. I can read so far before it blurs

 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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I agree, large paragraphs are draining lol


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Sorry guys! Next time I'll try and keep them shorter.  I'll try starter fluid in throttle body.  I cleaned throttle plate when I had it off.  I also checked for hole in plenum but there was so much soot, black greasy stuff, I really couldn't see one.  I'm thinking spark as well and trying to borrow and if need to buy a fuel pressure have.  Thanks for advice.

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If it looks that bad replace it. That will cause issues for sure. 

The more descriptive you are the better it is. Just takes time to read it :hatsoff:


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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Tried starter fluid in throttle body and no go.  My mechanic buddy came over and listened to it crank and said he thought it was not getting spark.  He didn't have his scan tool with him but is going to bring it over this week sometime.  How do I check for spark?  Way to test coils for spark?  The car has a 195K on it.  I'm sure it needs spark plugs and probably new coils.  My buddy thinks its probably computer related because he didn't think that eight coils would all go bad.  Sounds possible.  If it is computer related, where should I be looking?  We checked all fuses.  Not exactly sure how to check relays except with a multi-meter and checking for resistance.  Is there a better way to check them?  Does it matter which way they are put back in?  I'll let you know what scan tool reads!  Thanks again for help!

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You have 2 coil types, the original came as 4 in a strip and the updated design allowed single coil replacement.  

The updated design according to rockauto is "updated GM desin will have a black ebony fill"

If you have the updated design you can pull a single coil and use a spark tester on it.   Maybe someone knows how to test for spark on the 4 in a strip type, 4 spark testers?, you do no want high voltage sparks flying around.

Post all your P codes in a line below


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Pretty sure 2004-on had individual coils for each plug. 

Only the 2000-2003 had the (4) coil cartridges. 

Is there a aftermarket alarm or remote start installed on the car?

 

 

04coil.jpg

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@Logan

My info came from the 05 Deville parts listing on Rockauto.  The attached photo talks about 2 types one of which is an updated design?   Maybe I have interpreted it wrong.  I get the impression that the updated design can have single coil replacements but the prior design is 4 coils?   Did I miss something?   Thanks

2005 Deville Coils.jpg


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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When you said "4 in a strip".....I thought you were talking about the 2000-2003 coil cassette(s). 

coilpack.JPG

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I have the 4 coils that can be replaced individually.   So I need to get a spark tester.  Am not aware of a remote start but don't believe so.  Thinking antitheft is not letting car start?

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You need a HEI tester.....it should produce a distinctive visible spark and snapping spark sound. Think they are about $10. 

 

Aftermarket alarm or remote start systems on Cadilllacs.....seem to work for a year or 2 and then stuff like this happens...If it has one it needs to come out. 

hei.JPG

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Was able to put buddy's scan tool on car today.  Pulled two codes: U1301 High Voltage On Class 2 Serial Data Circuit and P0341B camshaft sensor.  I just replaced both the crankshaft and camshaft sensor with AC delco ones.  Pretty sure they werent backwards.  Grey on top and black on bottom.  Is there a relearn im supposed to do?

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He also said he wasn't getting half the readings he should have been.  Some computer not reading is my guess.  This is why I think the camshaft is not working even though I just replaced it.  Computer not communicating with the sensors.  Any ideas to which one?

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Have you disconnected the battery to 'reboot' the system?

Have you checked PCM, INJECTOR fuses?

I would pull, check and reset all fuses, especially the big 50 and 60 amp fuses

Check for open and corrosion


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I checked all under hood with test light but forgot to check ones under backseat again and I'll disconnect battery. Thanks.  I'll let you know if that changes anything 

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Did you determine if you had spark?

Did you connect a fuel pressure gage?, what was pressure with key on?

Is the fuel good?, while the fuel pressure gage is attached, usually you can drain fuel with a release button, get a glass clear jar and drain about a quart of gas into it.  Let it sit covered so you dont accidently cause a fire and see it separates, in a level of fuel and WATER.  I have seen water cause a no start.  

Its doubtful that its related to underseat fuses.

Need spark and fuel pressure info


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I ordered the HEI spark emitter.  Haven't done fuel pressure gage yet but will try this weekend.  Test light method reliable?  

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Test light method reliable for what?, testing fuses?

Yes and no, since you are getting weirdness, I consider that you 'may' get voltage with no load, but you may get a voltage drop with a load.  You are having problems here so I am reaching here.

Corrosion can cause fits, work and then not work.  Just pop off power.  

It is difficult to further diagnose without the fuel pressure and spark data.


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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The U1301 is somewhat ominous.....is that a current or history code? Might be why there is so much scan tool data missing...if that is a true condition.

It is a network error.....something like the network is shorted to voltage. I think the car will have a hard time starting if the network is out.

From the GM service manual...I changed the font to bold at a interesting point about the power mode.

I also added a chart that shows which modules can cause a U1301.

DTC U1300, U1301, or U1305

Modules connected to the class 2 serial data circuit monitor for serial data communications during normal vehicle operation. Operating information and commands are exchanged among the modules. In addition to this, Node Alive messages are transmitted by each module on the class 2 serial data circuit about once every 2 seconds. When the module detects one of the following conditions on the class 2 serial data circuit for approximately 3 seconds, the setting of all other class 2 serial communication DTCs is inhibited and a DTC will set.

DTC
 Condition
 
U1300
 Low voltage on the class 2 serial data circuit
 
U1301
 High voltage on the class 2 serial data circuit
 
U1305
 Either high or low voltage on the class 2 serial data circuit

Some modules will set DTC U1305 if they are not capable of distinguishing between a short to battery voltage or ground.
 

DTC Descriptors
This diagnostic procedure supports the following DTCs:

    •  DTC U1300 Class 2 Data Link Low  

    •  DTC U1301 Class 2 Data Link High  

    •  DTC U1305 Class 2 Data Link Low or High 

Conditions for Running the DTCs
    •  Voltage supplied to the module is in the normal operating voltage range. 

    •  The vehicle power mode requires serial data communication to occur. 

Conditions for Setting the DTCs
    •  No valid messages are detected on the class 2 serial data circuit. 

    •  The voltage level detected on the class 2 serial data circuit is in one of the following conditions: 

       -  High 

       -  Low 

    •  The above conditions are met for approximately 3 seconds. 

Action Taken When the DTC Sets
The module uses default values for all parameters received on the class 2 serial data circuit.

Conditions for Clearing the DTC
    •  A current DTC clears when the malfunction is no longer present. 

    •  A history DTC clears when the module ignition cycle counter reaches the reset threshold, without a repeat of the malfunction. 

Diagnostic Aids
    •  These DTCs cannot be retrieved with a current status. Diagnosis of current DTCs is accomplished via the symptom, Scan Tool Does Not Communicate with a Class 2 Device. Refer to Scan Tool Does Not Communicate with Class 2 Device . 

    •  An intermittent condition is likely to be caused by a short on the class 2 serial data circuit. Use the Scan Tool Does Not Communicate with a Class 2 Device procedure in order to isolate an intermittent condition. Refer to Scan Tool Does Not Communicate with Class 2 Device . 
 

u1301.JPG

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@Logan Wow, this a new one, is a tech2 needed to proceed here?  

I really need to get up to speed on networks


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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