2004 cadillac deville Emissions monitor smog problems

[John]

Here the problem  the readiness monitors for the catalytic converter will not set to ready status have no error codes, have had the catalytic converter replaced. How to talk to the garage after was there for 2 weeks their conclusion was the fact that it was hard to find the problem because there was no codes I plainly told him if there was a code I have some idea what the problem was so I paid them their money and had the car towed home.

 2004 Cadillac Deville with 183000 miles

All suggestions will be welcome so that I can get tags on my car this is a California smog issue, all other monitors are set to ready.

[Bruce Nunnally]

  Welcome John.

A complete drive cycle may enable your Cadillac Deville to be ready for inspection:  http://www.obdii.com/drivecycle.html

Each step of the drive cycle must be completed to allow the Cadillac to complete a thorough self-diagnostics test:

 

Quote

 

General Motors Driving Cycle

A complete driving cycle should perform diagnostics on all systems. A complete driving cycle can be done in under fifteen minutes.

To perform an OBDII Driving cycle do the following:

1. Cold Start. In order to be classified as a cold start the engine coolant temperature must be below 50°C (122°F) and within 6°C (11°F) of the ambient air temperature at startup. Do not leave the key on prior to the cold start or the heated oxygen sensor diagnostic may not run.
2. Idle. The engine must be run for two and a half minutes with the air conditioner on and rear defroster on. The more electrical load you can apply the better. This will test the O2 heater, Passive Air, Purge "No Flow", Misfire and if closed loop is achieved, Fuel Trim.
3. Accelerate. Turn off the air conditioner and all the other loads and apply half throttle until 88km/hr (55mph) is reached. During this time the Misfire, Fuel Trim, and Purge Flow diagnostics will be performed.
4. Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for 3 minutes. During this time the O2 response, air Intrusive, EGR, Purge, Misfire, and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.
5. Decelerate. Let off the accelerator pedal. Do not shift, touch the brake or clutch. It is important to let the vehicle coast along gradually slowing down to 32km/hr (20 mph). During this time the EGR, Purge and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.
6. Accelerate. Accelerate at 3/4 throttle until 88-96 km/hr (55-60mph). This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 3.
7. Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for five minutes. During this time, in addition to the diagnostics performed in step 4, the catalyst monitor diagnostics will be performed. If the catalyst is marginal or the battery has been disconnected, it may take 5 complete driving cycles to determine the state of the catalyst.
8. Decelerate. This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 5. Again, don't press the clutch or brakes or shift gears.

 

 

 

[John]

Hi Bruce

Thank for the info, unfortunately I have tried the drive cycle for over 500 miles .I'm trying to find out when the test diagnostic start, I know that the diagnosis have run because all the other monitors have change to ready-state.

Regards John

Thanks for info Bruce

 

[OldCadTech]

This is a generic drive cycle - often times the drive cycle would have to be repeated ESP on some imports, I know it is not an import but sometimes it works !

This is from the days I worked in an independent shop. Came from ALL-DATA I think.... It is a generic OBD2 operation anyway

------->> Note the IAT (Intake Air) value during engine startup. The driving time must be adjusted during step “a” based upon IAT (Intake Air) value at startup.

a. Drive the vehicle at 40 – 55 mph (64 – 88 km/h) for the time described below:

If IAT (Intake Air) was less than 50F (10C) when the engine was started, drive for 7 minutes.

If IAT (Intake Air) was greater than 50F (10C) when the engine was started, drive for 3 minutes.

b. Drive the vehicle at 35 – 45 mph (56 – 72 km/h) for approximately 7 minutes.

NOTE: A lot of this is assuming you have access to some form of a scan tool to monitor the status.

Drive with smooth throttle operation. 

Avoid sudden acceleration. Avoid sudden deceleration as much as possible with the throttle fully closed.

If readiness status does not switch to “ready” ensure preconditions are met, turn the

ignition OFF, then repeat steps “a” and “b.”

 

If there is an exhaust leak the cat may not be getting hot enough during the drive cycle. Add a little trans fluid to the intake and check for leaks.

It could be an O2 sensor problem or O2 sensor wiring.

Could be an IAT temp problem

Is the AIR system operating? it is designed to help "light" the cat. 

Is it safe to say there are still NO CODES????

 

[John]

Hi oldcadtech.

Thanks for the info,I will try the drive cycle tomorrow  ( if the temperature is not 104' been hot here) you where talking about the 02 sensors about a bad wires, if there was a open would it set a code?. Also the monitor ready

Should it change the monitor ready status? 

.(Could be an IAT temp problem) I don't know what this is!

Yes the air conditioning is working great 

Off the subject, I was curious if you had a opinion on the Northstar engine, how many miles you should be able to get on the motor before you will have to rebuild the engine.

Thanks for help!

[Bruce Nunnally]

Did you have this issue before the catalytic converter was replaced?

If the DTC codes are reset, or if the battery is disconnected, then the readiness is reset as well.   Do you have any signs of battery issues, engine ground issues, etc?

[BodybyFisher]

Do you have any current codes?, especially P codes? 

ANY emissions codes will cause the engine management system to run in OPEN LOOP and the system will not go into closed loop.  

Please extract all codes and post them

[OldCadTech]

IAT - is Intake Air Temperature - the sensor is in the intake air stream between the air cleaner and the throttle body. 2 wire connector.

AIR - is AIR Injection Recirculation it pumps air into the exhaust to help heat the cat up. See pic, there is one in the rear of the engine too.

Yes - the O2 wiring should set a code but see the posts above from @Bruce Nunnally & @BodybyFisher

You have a 2004 with 180k+ it probably still has the factory crosshatch on the cylinder walls, so I doubt if it needs an overhaul. It probably needs the head gaskets replaced and the head bolt holes "time-serted" @BodybyFisher can fill you in on that with some links, and the engine case halves need to be resealed. While the case halves are being resealed the main bearings should be inspected/replaced. Rear main seal, timing chain and timing chain tensioners and you're good for another 180K. 

 

[John]

Hi OldCadTech,Bruce

I would like to thank you gentleman for your time and effort I appreciate it.

I have one code for the fuel pump sending unit,but it is a hidden code,information Only. As to the converter question I was having the same problem before replacing it, (when I talk to the Cadillac dealership mechanic he stated that when they get old they won't set a code but could be marginal so I invested had a new catalytic converter installed)  From now on out. I can talk or listen to people if they can give me some data on why you should replace the part. I guess it would be okay if you had you own a Part Supply.,LOL

How do I test for the IAT sensor,  AIR Injection Recirculation pump?

On the head gasket,reseal, who would recommend to do the work,in central valley CA,I have talk with two different job organizations ,one in Los Angeleslone Mesa AZ.How would you recommend? 

Regards John

 

[Bruce Nunnally]

I don't think the catalytic converter ever sets a code -- the O2 sensors before/after the cat may detect that the cat is not converting, but there is no read on the converter itself.  The mechanic could possibly have deteted that the materials inside the cat had broken up (it rattled) and concluded it needed to be replaced.  Or as you note perhaps he just wanted to sell you something.  Now, the O2 sensors do get 'old' and need to be replaced now and then, but don't think that is causing your inspection issue.

First is get it to complete the readiness cycle.  I am interested to see what is keeping your systems from getting to ready.  Do you note any symptoms that might suggest an electrical issue that could be resetting the readiness?

I would only redo the heads if I knew the gasket/bolts were blown/loose, not as a precaution.  Likewise one would only reseal the blook if it is leaking or weeping oil.  There are solutions for each of these in other words, but they are not preventative maintenance.

[BodybyFisher]

John, how are you checking for codes?  The response you gave that it was informational is a little odd.  You do know that you have an on-board diagnostics system and YOU can retrieve the codes correct?  

Please pull all codes for us and tell us whether they are history or current.  

Take your time, and write all down, start over if you have to.  Here is a link to the 2004 Deville and how to extract the codes:

http://www.caddyinfo.com/readingcodes.html

You have a great car, have patience, we will help you get it right.   If you have difficulty pulling the codes come back and let us know.  We NEED to know what is going on from the codes.

Mike

[BodybyFisher]

By the way, did I gather that you failed the state inspection?  

Did you fail because the system isn't ready?

Or did you fail because of an emissions problem?

If you are having an electrical problem that is resetting your pcm that would start the drive cycle over.  The codes will help is know if the battery power is being knocked out intermittantly

[John]

Hi Bruce

 The only thing that I can see that could be a possible a problem sometimes when I start up in the morning it just  runs a little bit rough some times, other than that it doesn't smoke, it has a lot of power,there could possibly be a small minor head gasket leak because there's a small Trace amount of hydrocarbons in the engine coolant but it was just barely large enough to read it.

The car does have oil leaks that started about 2 to 3 weeks ago before that not a drop unfortunately I believe that the people who sold the car,they could have used stop leak in it.I'm hoping that they didn't I use head gasket in a can.no water in the oil,that a good SIGN.Also who would you recommend for headgasket,reseal work, I can no longer work on my car,I can do little repairs,wish I could do all work.

Regards  John

[John]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the help!

I'm failing the smog because of the monitor status,they will not do a tail pipe test.

As to codes,I have had three one for the TCC solenoid which I had fixed it was

during that repairs the battery was disconnected.ABS code for the right rear disc

Which didn't come back after resetting DIC,the last one is for the fuel pump sending

Unit,have not fix it. Also who would you recommend for headgasket,reseal work, I can no longer work on my car,I can do little repairs,wish I could do all work. Years back I love working on My cars.

Regards John

 

[John]

1 hour ago, BodybyFisher said:

John, how are you checking for codes?  The response you gave that it was informational is a little odd.  You do know that you have an on-board diagnostics system and YOU can retrieve the codes correct?  

Please pull all codes for us and tell us whether they are history or current.  

Take your time, and write all down, start over if you have to.  Here is a link to the 2004 Deville and how to extract the codes:

http://www.caddyinfo.com/readingcodes.html

You have a great car, have patience, we will help you get it right.   If you have difficulty pulling the codes come back and let us know.  We NEED to know what is going on from the codes.

Mike

 Hi Mike

I have been us both the on board computer and a snap on code tester.also battery reading is 14.5 volts only thing that I could say was electrical problem is sometimes when you get out of the the stereo doesn't  turn off

 Regards John

[OldCadTech]

I wanted to clarify - IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT - When I suggested the head gasket repair and case half reseal I was not implying it was a requirement at that mileage.

If you are considering keeping the vehicle forever and want to bring it back to "Cadillac Excellence" condition then do the work I suggested.

1 hour ago, John said:

Hi Bruce

 The only thing that I can see that could be a possible a problem sometimes when I start up in the morning it just  runs a little bit rough some times, other than that it doesn't smoke, it has a lot of power,there could possibly be a small minor head gasket leak because there's a small Trace amount of hydrocarbons in the engine coolant but it was just barely large enough to read it.

The car does have oil leaks that started about 2 to 3 weeks ago before that not a drop unfortunately I believe that the people who sold the car,they could have used stop leak in it.I'm hoping that they didn't I use head gasket in a can.no water in the oil,that a good SIGN.Also who would you recommend for headgasket,reseal work, I can no longer work on my car,I can do little repairs,wish I could do all work.

Regards  John

But, after seeing this (marked in red) I'm thinking  maybe you should consider something. I'm not sure what the coolant could be doing to the cat readiness either. If the roughness on cold start up is caused by coolant leaking into the cylinders it might affect your timelines even more for the drive cycle. If you do decide to do something along the lines of major engine work send me a PM, I have some excellent referrals for you.

Also, with the design of the NStar you will not get coolant into the oil like the 4.1 thru 4.9 HT engine.

[BodybyFisher]

John, I am not speaking about the charging rate at all. 

There are a few codes that will show that the battery has been disconnected either intentionally or as a fault, that CAN start the drive cycle over again and it could be why you can not complete a drive cycle.

Please use the ON BOARD computer and run through the code dump and post every code you have.   That is the starting point of any diagnosis here, otherwise there is not much we can do.   14.5 volt charging rate appears high, this can be a bad battery also.  I want to see ALL P and B codes both CURRENT and HISTORY.

Please take time and do this, post the actual codes for us, it is important.   I have a reason for it, once you do that I am going to ask you to do something else.

With regard to the headgasket, you have a 2004, the bolts are beefier, the 2004 is the third gen bolt, and while there have been head gasket issues, the incidence is less beginning in 2004.  There is no need to do a head gasket unless there is need to do it, you are not overheating.   Your engine could run for 300,000 miles with no issues, the best thing you could do is keep changing the coolant every 2 years (drain and refill) and drive it!  No need to cross that bridge until you come to it, and you may never come to it.   Keep the cooling system, it tip top condition, fix leaks, change cap regularly every 3 years, fix pressure leaks, etc., your cooling system will be happier for it.  Keep in mind that if you can smell coolant, you are leaking it under pressure, in a good cooling system you won't smell coolant.  Consider adding the AC DELCO cooling system supplement tablets for additional protection. 

[John]

5 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

John, how are you checking for codes?  The response you gave that it was informational is a little odd.  You do know that you have an on-board diagnostics system and YOU can retrieve the codes correct?  

Please pull all codes for us and tell us whether they are history or current.  

Take your time, and write all down, start over if you have to.  Here is a link to the 2004 Deville and how to extract the codes:

http://www.caddyinfo.com/readingcodes.html

You have a great car, have patience, we will help you get it right.   If you have difficulty pulling the codes come back and let us know.  We NEED to know what is going on from the codes.

Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for the help!

I'm failing the smog because of the monitor status,they will not do a tail pipe test.

As to codes,I have had three one for the TCC solenoid which I had fixed it was

during that repairs the battery was disconnected.ABS code for the right rear disc

Which didn't come back after resetting DIC,the last one is for the fuel pump sending

Unit,have not fix it. Also who would you recommend for headgasket,reseal work, I can no longer work on my car,I can do little repairs,wish I could do all work. Years back I love working on My cars.

Regards John

 

[BodybyFisher]

John, see my post above your post, Mike

[John]

Hi bodybyfisher

OK I will get the codes it will be a couple of hot weather in the 100",is there a way to dump the codes to a device?

Regards John

 

[BodybyFisher]

John, I read some place that it was necessary for the ambient temp to be less than 90 degrees, that could be your problem, it has been very hot by you. 

See this OBD2 drive cycle, it is a generic drive cycle, as you can see drive cycles can be very detailed. Note the fuel level of 15 to 85%, you are getting a fuel sender code, I don't think that would be a problem, but keep that in mind, I think the fuel level has to do with the EVAP test.    If I were you, I would go to the dealer and see if he can print out the 2004 drive cycle for you and follow that exactly.  That is unless someone here has a 2004 FSM that has the drive cycle.

[John]

Hi Bodybyfisher

This problem has been going on for five and a half months now yeah I also read about the fact that the temperature have to be below 92 degrees or the temperature had to be within six degrees between the intake and the ambient temperature. Sure can not drive in this heat! They run  by very quickly when you use the on board computer 

Regards John

[BodybyFisher]

They do, but you can easily start the code dump over, I am not sure what button it is, but if you push one button when you get to the end, it will begin again.

Also, if you have a smart phone, have it ready on video, start dump and tape it!, play it back at your leisure, with pause... 

[John]

Hi Bodybyfisher

Here are the codes from the Cads,on board computer. 

CURRENT CODES  PCM P0468, IPM B0429,PCM P0463

HISTORY CODES ABS ID:8101,AMP ID:7426,DDM ID:2510,,DDS ID:3666,DIM ID:8937,IPC ID:3020 I'M ID:9470

IRC ID:2109,LRD ID:2509,PDM ID:2510,RCC ID:6334,RFA ID:7282,RIM ID:2833,RRD ID:2509,VTD I'D 3382,

HERE ARE CODES I LIST THEM ALL.

THANK MIKE

 

[BodybyFisher]

DTC P0463 Fuel Level Sensor Circuit High Voltage

DTC P0468 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit High Input

B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance

I believe what is happening is that you have a current P code that is related to emissions, the P0468, which is related to the EVAP system, it is related to the recapture and burning of gasoline fumes from the tank, and is surely emissions related.  It is possible that because you have a current P code that is related to emissions that the PCM can not complete all tests, as a result.   Have that P0468 fixed.  As it is, you will not pass with that code current I don't believe.    Do you have a check engine light currently on?  With these current codes you should have a check engine light.

Others will chime in on this, my 96 manual tells me nothing about this code, and there isn't a lot on line.