chriskoc1 Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I went to drive my car today and it would not start. I used a handheld charger to charge the battery and finally got it to start. I flipped the display to see the charge and it drove fine for a second and shut off. I tightened the cables and charged it once more and it started fine and charged all the way to 14.4 v. I drove around the block and it was fine. I parked it and got the codes PO012, PO051, PO071, IO051. I then check the voltage just to see it decrease and then the car shut down. Could someone tell me if this is just the battery or a bad alternator. I don't think it is the alternator since it was fine the second time driving. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 This is very difficult to diagnose here. After the car dies does the battery restart the car again? If you have a dead cell or if the battery will not hold a charge the engine will quit as the alternator alone will not provide enough current to support he ignition system and accessories by itself. I had this with a 91 Seville 4.9, it would jump start, and as soon as you stepped on the gas to move the engine would die. I had it charged and the battery failed a load test. I replaced the battery and all was fine. Take your battery someplace like Sears to have it charged and load tested, a dead cell will show up quickly. This way you determine if the battery is or isn't your problem. report back what you find out.. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydone Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 while you are at it check your cables for corrosion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Thanks for your replies. I had taken the battery to an autoparts store and they checked the charge which showed it at 11. I decided to buy a new battery and it started up fine when I replaced it. The battery charge with the engine off says 11.9 to 12.1. I will go out and check the charge in a hour to see if it drained or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I would also like to know if anyone knows the size of the battery hold down bolt off hand since I had a hell of a time trying to get the corroded bolt out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhead007 Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 buy a new battery at sears bought 120 i paid the bolt is 14mm or 9/16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Thanks for your replies. I had taken the battery to an autoparts store and they checked the charge which showed it at 11. I decided to buy a new battery and it started up fine when I replaced it. The battery charge with the engine off says 11.9 to 12.1. I will go out and check the charge in a hour to see if it drained or not. I am not too concerned what the battery charge is with the key off, what are you getting with the engine running immediately after startup, and after 15 minutes of driving? You will see higher charging rates in cold weather (14.1+) after startup, as the car and battery gets warmed up well you should drop back down to 13.2 or so.. I didnt get the impression you were chasing a parasitic drain here, why do you think the battery might be drained in an hour? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 while you are at it check your cables for corrosion johnnydone brings up a good point, that is the first thing that you should always check. Cleaning the positive cable has become routine maintenance for me, I clean them every other oil change or so now, since mine were so bad at one time. BE SURE the positive cable is clean, your positive cable has two cables that connect with a lug between them (watch how this joint comes apart). You need to take the red plastic insulator off to see all of the parts and cable ends. If there is any corrosion, use baking soda or buy battery terminal cleaner and spray all of the connectors and finish with wire brushes. Use anti-corrosion washers made for side terminal batteries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Kriskoc 1, As for your codes: PO12 "No reference signal from ignition control module" PO51 "PROM Checksum Mismatch" PO71 "Intermittent MAP sensor" (Manifold Absolute Pressure) IO51 I didn't find a discription of IO51. My book skips that code. Perhaps Bobinski can help with that. I would say just from the codes, that either you have a connector somewhere, most likely at the PCM that is loose. For your ride to pull those particular codes, AND drain the battery, I suspect that there is a serious gremlin (not the one built by American Motors ) loose under your hood or dash. I think that the first thing I would do would be to assure that the battery is good. I know from experience with my 94 SLS that even though a battery will start the car (as mine would) a bad cell or dirty terminals will really affect the computers in a Northstar (and 4.9) powered Caddy. Next I would check all the underhood and under dash connectors. Especially if you have had something done in or around them. It is also possible that extremely low voltage has caused some of those codes to pull. As Scotty asks, what is the voltage at idle and at speed? That will tell a lot more than the not running voltage. Take the car to a place like Sears, AutoZone, Pepboys, or any large autoparts chain store. At AutoZone they will roll a tester right out to the car and test the battery in place. (At least they do here. ) They can tell you on the spot wheather or not the battery or charging system is good or bad. Good Luck Let Us Know what you find. Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 The reason I said something about the voltage of the battery when the engine is not running is because I would see the voltage drop from 14v all the way to 9v and then dash would shut off and the car wouldn't start. I checked new battery recently and drove it and everything seems to be normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 The reason I said something about the voltage of the battery when the engine is not running is because I would see the voltage drop from 14v all the way to 9v and then dash would shut off and the car wouldn't start. I checked new battery recently and drove it and everything seems to be normal. OK then, I didnt pick up on that before, definately check your positive cable for corrosion... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 There was a lot of corrosion which I luckily sanded down but there was none on the inside of the terminal. I also found that the plastic cap had popped off the positive terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 If there was a lot of corrosion, look closely at the cables. It can creep back under the casing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Well its looks like a bought a battery for nothing since I couldn't start the car this morning. Well I actually started it, and then turned it off after warming up. I tried to start it again to no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Also, does anyone know if it is possible to just change the old battery cable ends on this type of cable. I got most of the rust off but I want to make sure I am getting a good connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Well its looks like a bought a battery for nothing since I couldn't start the car this morning. Well I actually started it, and then turned it off after warming up. I tried to start it again to no avail. Is the battery dead when you tried to restart or do you get a click, and then all is OFF? Does it turn over at all? Do you have any lights, horn? For no reason? The people you bought the battery from should have tested the battery, its either GOOD or its BAD! No way should it have been replaced if it tested GOOD! What did the TEST show then, why did you buy a new battery if that one was good? Charging the battery FULL and Load testing the battery is standard procedure! You needed to ELIMINATE the battery as your problem, replacing parts indescrimately will be expensive. Well look at it this way, you DID eliminate the battery as your cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 I checked the old battery and the charge was 10 V. I charged it for two hours and it went to 9 V. That is why I bought a new one. This is the total description of the problem now. The car will not start on its own without using a portable jump starter. After I do start it, it will idle but when I move it a foot, it shuts off completely. No power to anything which takes me back to square one. I pulled history codes of PO052 and IO052. I did notice a small transmission fluid leak I believe to be from the hose near the cooler. I was also low on coolant. It is strange how all this stuff happened within a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I am stumped Did you put the car in drive and drive the car with the new battery last night or did you just idle it in place? Regarding your prior post, I would not attempt to put new ends on your battery cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Last night I was able to drive it about a mile. I then stopped since it was dark outside and I did not want to get stuck. Today I was only able to idle. But it did completely shut off after about two feet of driving. I too am stumped so I gave up and had it towed to an engine and transmission specialist place. Hopefully they will give me some answers. Thanks Scotty for all your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Last night I was able to drive it about a mile. I then stopped since it was dark outside and I did not want to get stuck. Today I was only able to idle. But it did completely shut off after about two feet of driving. I too am stumped so I gave up and had it towed to an engine and transmission specialist place. Hopefully they will give me some answers. Thanks Scotty for all your time. This is difficult to diagnose without seeing and hearing what is happening. It is certainly beginning to sound like an electrical problem as you said "No power to anything which takes me back to square one". The reason I have been asking probing questions is to try to learn more about the problem. At least you were able to drive the car, so the drivetrain appears functional, it certainly does seem to be electrical, let us know what you find out, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Chris' Now I am thinking ALTERNATOR. If it drained the battery overnight. Just curious, did the booster battery get hooked up backwards, even for a split second? (Evidenced by a Large spark ). If so, the alternator may have a blown diode, which can drain a battery overnight. I have seen them with one diode blown, and it seemed to charge just fine with the engine running, however when the engine was shut down, the blown diode supplied a ground. Some other thoughts: I have accidentally left the dome lights on and run the battery down. And I have also seen a glove compartment or trunk light fail to go out and drain the battery. CAUTION!! Precautions to take when working around batteries. A battery generates hydrogen gas when charging. Connecting or disconnecting anything form a battery that causes a spark can cause an explosion!! Always unplug or turn off a battery charger before hooking it up or unhooking the leads from the battery. As a precaution, I always take a deep breath (not near the battery) and then blow over the battery top to disperse the hydrogen gas. Then I hook or unhook the leads as required. When I was 16, I had a battery explode and cover me with acid . Since then, I have been EXTRA careful about causing sparks around batteries! If this ever happens to you, flush the area with water, immediately. I was able to get in a shower and neutralize the acid. Don't bother to take the time to take clothes off, jump into a shower, use a hose, jump in the lake! Do whatever to dilute the acid before it scars you for life. Let us know what you find wrong Chris. Good luck, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskoc1 Posted January 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Thanks for the warning. I will make sure to give you guys the verdict tomorrow if they find out what is wrong. I had a similar problem happen to me when I owned a Ford Contour (Crap). Whoever installed the alarm on my previous car did it wrong and spliced into the wiring harness which caused it to fail twice. It took about 2 weeks and 1 grand to find the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Chris' Now I am thinking ALTERNATOR. If it drained the battery overnight. Just curious, did the booster battery get hooked up backwards, even for a split second? (Evidenced by a Large spark ). If so, the alternator may have a blown diode, which can drain a battery overnight. I have seen them with one diode blown, and it seemed to charge just fine with the engine running, however when the engine was shut down, the blown diode supplied a ground. Some other thoughts: I have accidentally left the dome lights on and run the battery down. And I have also seen a glove compartment or trunk light fail to go out and drain the battery. CAUTION!! Precautions to take when working around batteries. A battery generates hydrogen gas when charging. Connecting or disconnecting anything form a battery that causes a spark can cause an explosion!! Always unplug or turn off a battery charger before hooking it up or unhooking the leads from the battery. As a precaution, I always take a deep breath (not near the battery) and then blow over the battery top to disperse the hydrogen gas. Then I hook or unhook the leads as required. When I was 16, I had a battery explode and cover me with acid . Since then, I have been EXTRA careful about causing sparks around batteries! If this ever happens to you, flush the area with water, immediately. I was able to get in a shower and neutralize the acid. Don't bother to take the time to take clothes off, jump into a shower, use a hose, jump in the lake! Do whatever to dilute the acid before it scars you for life. Let us know what you find wrong Chris. Good luck, Britt This is why I never jump anyone with my car! The potential for reversing the cables and blowing diodes and the heavy current draw. Most batteries today are sealed and don't give off a lot of gas, but I have heard of them blowing up in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 WHile your at it "always .... and always" wear safety glasses when working under the hood with rotating machinary, chemicals ... Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pats37 Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Trace your battery ground to where it bolts to frame. If it is like my STS you may not be able to see the other side of the bolt (inside the frame rail). Remove it, check the cable thoroughly and replace if necessary and use a new ground point where you can inspect it easily. Also the battery does not have enough power to run the car if the alternator is bad or going bad. Have the alternator checked. Low voltage conditions cause all kinds of problems. It is also possible you have a bad ground somewhere else in the system. The trunk might be a good place to start looking. Do your signals, brake and reverse lights work normally? Then do the same on front end. For every problem there is a solution unfortunately getting to it can be a "bear" at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.