Mystery coolant loss 4.6

[OldCadTech]

Update - I added another 1/2 gallon of coolant this morning, so 1/2 gal in 3 days. You would think that would show on the ground or leave a trail (grrr). The right head c-over gasket looks wet on the top ( ? ), I didn't see a trail under it either though, I couldn't take the car apart because of my work schedule. The w/pump belt adjuster looks like it is maxed out, w/pump was replaced "a few months" ago according to previous owner, his wife said it was about 2yrs ago, to me it doesn't look like a fresh repair. No PCM codes so I doubt it is burning it, no smell from either exhaust and no white smoke.

[OldCadTech]

A little off topic but has anyone used GMPartsNow? Looks like a D/ship with a web department.

[BodybyFisher]

We have used these guys, there prices were pretty good, have not used them recently tho. It was Brasington Chevy, now Gainesville. Here is the order form

http://www.gainesvillechevy.com/PartsOrderForm

[OldCadTech]

Thank You Everyone!!

I'll let you know what happens, hopefully Saturday will be the day. Glad I could bounce things off you guys, I got some good tips to work with. :)

[KHE]

Update - I added another 1/2 gallon of coolant this morning, so 1/2 gal in 3 days. You would think that would show on the ground or leave a trail (grrr). The right head c-over gasket looks wet on the top ( ? ), I didn't see a trail under it either though, I couldn't take the car apart because of my work schedule. The w/pump belt adjuster looks like it is maxed out, w/pump was replaced "a few months" ago according to previous owner, his wife said it was about 2yrs ago, to me it doesn't look like a fresh repair. No PCM codes so I doubt it is burning it, no smell from either exhaust and no white smoke.

Are you filling the coolant to the correct level (2-1/2" down from the bottom of the neck? Overfilling the surge tank will cause it to puke out the excess and appear to be using coolant.

[OldCadTech]

KHE - I thought the rib inside was to be covered, but now that you mention it, I think it was closer to only an inch from the top. I miss my SM's Definitely could be puking it out, I even remember some moisture on the end of the overflow hose but didn't think much about it at the time.

[KHE]

KHE - I thought the rib inside was to be covered, but now that you mention it, I think it was closer to only an inch from the top. I miss my SM's Definitely could be puking it out, I even remember some moisture on the end of the overflow hose but didn't think much about it at the time.

It sounds like you're overfilling it - maybe not the entire cause of the coolant usage but part of it. On the 2000+ cars, the lower portion of the surge tank is translucent and the black top is right at the "full cold" mark - MUCH easier to set the coolant at the correct level.

[OldCadTech]

Thanks Kevin, I'll watch that..

John

[OldCadTech]

FIXED It was the heavy-duty green hose directly under the EGR valve. YaY - No head gaskets

Thank You ALL for putting up with me

[BodybyFisher]

Nice! Was the clamp just loose or was the hose itself bad. Those are silicone hoses that hold up in high heat locations. They usually last a long time. If you replaced it with a rubber hose either replace it with silicone or keep an eye on it as it will dry out. The OEM hoses from the dealer are about $20 each.

Here is 13 inches of 5/8" for $3.50 per foot

http://m.ebay.com/itm/5-8-ID-FlexFab-Silicone-Heater-Hose-16mm-Blue-350-F-13-foot-Coolant-Radiator-/301004931367?nav=SEARCH

Here is 13 inches of 3/4 inch for $3.39 per foot

http://m.ebay.com/itm/3-4-ID-Venair-1-Ply-Silicone-Heater-Hose-for-Radiator-Coolant-Blue-Sold-by-Foot-/121822798284?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D0b77c07beb6a47999fc2512ab9c2f9a2%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D1%2526rkt%253D13%2526sd%253D121818370156&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

I recently swapped an engine and a previous mechanic replaced both silicone hoses with rubber hose and they were brittle and snapped when I bent them.

How did you find it, pressurizing the system or by seeing steam? Glad we could help.

[OldCadTech]

The hose clamp was loose, I've only see one of those hoses split..

I found it by standing on my head an wiggling my toes with the help of a long mirror I spotted the little dab of wet looking gunk bubble, then put the pressure tester on @ 17psi (don't tell) watched it for a few seconds and the drop I've been looking for dropped -

[OldCadTech]

BTW - Thanks for the leads on the silicone hose, I like the blue a lot better

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks for the feedback...very glad you found the leak!

The original silicone hoses are green and are about 3 inches long, I honestly don't know if they are 5/8" or 3/4". I once changed them unnecessarily when I did the crossover seals but they age very good.

The red hoses you see in the above photo are rubber hoses, they were brittle and the wrong hose for that location. They were dry rotted so badly that they just cracked when bent. A prior mechanic undoubtedly not knowing why those hoses were silicone changed them to rubber.

While the mechanic thinks he is doing a good thing changing the hoses to rubber he starts the clock running for you to at some point end up stuck on the side of the road someplace, in 100 degree heat most probably in bumper to bumper traffic. Obviously this is not someone who knows the engine and the purpose of those hoses in that location like a Cadillac dealer but an aftermarket shop that claims to have experience on Northstars but in reality does not and creates more trouble than he solves. I not only saw this on my Eldorado but my friends 98 Eldorado, both of which had their engines swapped out. My friends 98 had his engine swapped about a year ago and I have been working on his powertrain ever since fixing installation screw ups, including loose stabilizer links, coolant leaks, bad engine mounts and dog bones, bad bearings in tensioners, bad starter solenoid since swap, oil leaks, etc. The types of things that I am fixing should have been fixed or replaced during the install, why is it that mechanics put blinders on and only concern themselves with getting the engine in, regardless of the outcome.

I once had a transmission rebuilt on my 91 Seville and they gave the car to me with the brake backing plate smashed up against the brake rotor and scraping, a leaking oil cooler line that left me stranded on the highway and they pinched an electrical line between the engine and transmission that eventually blew out my AC, cooling fans, horn, etc. No test drive, just a shoddy install, Why? And they were recommended by the caddy dealer.

I am constantly blown away by so called 'mechanics' who are only concerned with getting a vehicle in and out as fast as possible. There really is no substitute for experience, specific knowledge, attention to detail and care. Is it just not possible to put in the required amount of work to do something right and make a reasonable living at the same time? My friend paid $1,100 to swap his engine, that implies 11 hours of work, is it really a 20 hour job to do it right, but you can not get paid for a 20 hour job? Maybe I am spoiled as a DIYer because time does not come into the equation. I take my time to disconnect connectors, retainers, tighten bolts in their correct location to the proper torque, fix leaks, and to put everything back in the same location, retained and tightened properly.

You being a former mechanic, is it possible to live by the "time is money" mantra and do an installation correctly?, without missing, incorrect and loose bolts, leaky oil cooler lines, loose brake lines, overlooking bad surrounding details like bad engine mounts, damaging radiator fins, breaking electrical connector retainers. Time an again, I see careless work, is it the mechanic, the pressure he is under to perform?, time is money or carelessness, or poor training? This is not directed at Cadillac dealer mechanics. Although I have had terrible experience with a Hyundai dealership where our block was replaced under warranty and the install was terrible with missing and wrong bolts, leaking coolant smell, alignment out, etc.

Can shops that specialize in a specific model like a Cadillac ONLY be more successful because of the familiarity and experience with a model? Their speed increases because they know the model, the hurdles, they develop a routine, they have the required tools, they know torque values, understand not to scratch sealing surfaces, know what is involved, etc. I can't help but think that a shop specializing in say the Northstar would be successful due to repetitive known maintenance and repairs.

I am interested in hearing your input on this given your mechanical history. I was impressed with your methodical approach to the problems, that to me is the only way to approach problems.

Thanks

[OldCadTech]

I typed and typed, spent an hour probably answering, when I hit post it all went away and said my security key was invalid. must be the Theft Deterrent Module

So bear with me and I'll retype it

[BodybyFisher]

Haha, I have had the same thing happen, its never as good as the first time you type it either. Thanks

[OldCadTech]

Thank you for the words, I believe you are a true technician and I mean that as a sincere compliment.

A little history first:

I started working at a Cadillac only dealership in '84 fresh out of tech school as a "test driver", my job was to test drive the vehicles to make sure the vehicle was fixed before it was returned to the customer. I hated the job, it was boring. I made it known to the service manager that I wanted to be a line tech. After a few months I was offered a position on the line as an A/C & "heavy line" tech, of course I took it. The 4.1 had just come out but we were busy with the 350 conversion diesel doing head gaskets and injection pumps. This was a very busy dealership and time management was a critical issue as "dispatch" would have repair orders stacked up and if you were asked to help you would. I had a rack and 2 flat stalls and they were almost always full, sometimes stacked one behind the other. So the "time is money" issue plays a big role, but I never put quantity above quality. Having the "test driver" bring a vehicle back to me was NOT going to happen.

I do think shops that specialize in certain repairs can be more successful. As an example; If I had all the parts to replace the engine in an '85 Deville at 8am, I would have the new engine running by 2pm, and back to the customer at 5pm, including test drive. That kind of speed is from repetition, I did hundreds of them. That kind of repetition is nearly impossible to do in an independent repair shop. My number 1 priority ( or goal if you will ) on every engine job was to make it look like the engine had just rolled off the assembly line, all the way down to the wire loom retainers locked and secured in the brackets. That engine swap pays 12 or 13 hrs factory time so yes it is possible to do the job, do it right and still make money. If I was doing a Hyundai engine swap I would get my @## kicked on flat rate on the first one, break even on the second one and make money on the third one. There also would not be any of the problems you experienced.That same goal carried over to all the jobs, brakes, rear axle overhauls etc

Troubleshooting was one of my favorite jobs, i loved the A/C and electrical diagnostics. Later I worked drivability and electrical but that was another dealership. I have the diagnostic flow chart ingrained into memory and I'm pretty sure it is still stuck to the side of my tool box. It is a methodology that works. The Cadillac dealership was a factory repair facility which meant the factory would bring vehicles there that other dealerships could not repair, they were assigned on a random basis depending on the problem. I have a few TSB's that were mine. Foremost was '86 - '87 E & K dash lights flicker ( I think that was the years, I've slept since then ) took me 4 days to find it was a faulty trunk pull down diode. it took me another full day to put the car back together. I got 6hrs flat rate for that including "other hours" authorized by the factory rep, but the point is, I still felt I had won I even did a time study for Cadillac on an oil filter adapter seal replace that prompted them to lower the factory repair time on it, I was not very popular for a while. The service manager asked me to NOT do any more time studies.

There were a lot of good techs working at that dealership and there probably still is. I was there for 11 years, worked at other Cadillac/GM dealerships then started writing service for a few years. Eventually I was service manager for a Cadillac/GM dealership but high blood pressure forced me into a career change in 2002.
There are good technicians working at independent repair shops too and I take my hat off to them. To be able to do quality work on a myriad of different vehicle types is truly an art form. i have worked in an independent facility but only for about a year, it's a different world.

Training is a big issue, ( a thorough understanding of the basics is an absolute must ) along with the reluctance by some to use the proper tools for the job even when the tools are readily available. BUT by far the BIGGEST problem is, and you stated it yourself - ATTENTION TO DETAIL - without it, you end up with nothing more than a hack-job. Pride in your work shows in the final product that you deliver back to the customer.

I'd love to do a NorthStar case half reseal with you and you could show me how to do the Time-Serts. So, what do you think? We could make a fortune!

You would not believe the things the factory tried on the 4.1 & 4.5 to try and salvage the engine in an attempt to avoid the engine swap under warranty, we all know how that turned out....
My introduction to the NorthStar was with the Allante. I think i did the first case half reseal but I have no proof of that, I did the first one for that dealership though. I bet I can still beat flat rate on it, on any platform :)

A saying that has stuck with me and I don't even remember where I heard it.

THERE IS ALWAYS TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

I hope I answered your questions and didn't ramble on too much.

John

[BodybyFisher]

John, I appreciate your reply, you confirmed my thinking on many fronts. I certainly would enjoy working with you. We have lots of knowdgeable members here that are always willing to brainstorm with you. It is great to have you here at caddyinfo and we are glad to have access to your experience.