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Cranks, no start - theft deterrent issue...96 Seville


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After car wouldn't start because of bad battery one night, replaced battery, but all it will do is crank - not start. The DIC shows Theft Deterrent message. Had car towed to a local Chevy dealer (the Cadillac dealer was booked for the whole next week). They determined (incorrectly) that the problem was the ignition lock cylinder. Actually it was bad, but had already done the VATS bypass. They changed the lock cylinder and keys, and supposedly reprogrammed it, but still won't start. When I check codes, there are several: IP1552, PC1631, PC1632, IP2750, and an SD1026. But the thing is, all are history - no current codes. I've installed the Newrockies Pro module to bypass this system, but that hasn't worked either. Neither has doing the 10/10/10 relearn procedure. Is it now just a matter of changing parts (PCM or IPC) and trying again? Really can't afford hours and hours of dealer diag time and parts right now...

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Hmmm..... Just to make sure: You had earlier installd correct resistance to override the key? Did You cut the wire to do that? Was the resistance spot on or???

Then the dealership changed the lock, keys AND wire all the way to connection on the firewall? Did they get the resistance correct?

Third time is the "Pro module"? I don´t know how that gadget works but I guess it still must be set to resistace?

Too many possible ways to go wrong!

Meassure the original key!

Compare to the new key! The same?????

Insert a "spot on" resistance at the firewall!

Turn on the ignition (don´t start)!

Leave it on for ten minutes!

Turn off ignition and then try normal start.

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B1552 Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error
P1631 Theft Deterrent Start Enable Signal Not Correct
P1632 Theft Deterrent Fuel Disable Signal Received
B2750 PASSKey Data Communication Failure
B1026 Driver Deployment Loop Open

The B1552 just means that the battery was out or disconnected sometime lately. The B1026 means that the driver's air bag is not hooked up; this should really be looked at. It's possible that the air bag deployed in the past and wasn't replaced properly.

The P1631, P1632, and B2750 tell the tale. Your pellet is wrong for the car's programming, or is missing, or messing with it has cause problems. You should put all this back original and leave it alone; it doesn't give trouble.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Ok. 1. yes, was done last year, and has worked until few weeks ago.

2. yes, wire was cut (white ones in orange cover, resistor connected there at the connector.

3. yes, resistor matched what was in the key pellet.

4. dealership changed cylinder (with its two wires to connector C202(?).

5. I believe resistance of new stuff was correct, else car wouldn't even crank. Not sure if I have the original keys, but I measured the new one, and it's in the same VATS family (#13 - 7500. i think it was around 7300)

6. Pro module apparently does use a resistance setting, among other things. there are 2 dip switches to select type of

car/system, and resistance (instructions have you try 15 different dip switch settings).

7.

Hmmm..... Just to make sure: You had earlier installd correct resistance to override the key? Did You cut the wire to do that? Was the resistance spot on or???

Then the dealership changed the lock, keys AND wire all the way to connection on the firewall? Did they get the resistance correct?

Third time is the "Pro module"? I don´t know how that gadget works but I guess it still must be set to resistace?

Too many possible ways to go wrong!

Meassure the original key!

Compare to the new key! The same?????

Insert a "spot on" resistance at the firewall!

Turn on the ignition (don´t start)!

Leave it on for ten minutes!

Turn off ignition and then try normal start.

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Hahaha.... apparently it does. I did the bypass because the wires in the lock cylinder were broken. The new resistors matched

the key. This has worked since last fall. Only after the dead battery issue the other week has there been a problem.

...The P1631, P1632, and B2750 tell the tale. Your pellet is wrong for the car's programming, or is missing, or messing with it has cause problems. You should put all this back original and leave it alone; it doesn't give trouble.
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Try disconnecting the negative battery cable for a minute or two and re-connecting it.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Did You install the "Pro module" yourself?

Did the car start at any time after the dealership installed the new lock?

Did You (or they) ever reset the codes?

Have You measured the resistance on connection after installing "Pro module"?

I know it is tight by the firewall - maybe bad connection on the far side from tampering whit it?

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I've never heard of the wires in the lock cylinder being broken. It sounds like someone was in the lock cylinder trying to bypass the pellet in the key.

Did the car start at the dealership and run OK until the battery died?

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I've never heard of the wires in the lock cylinder being broken. It sounds like someone was in the lock cylinder trying to bypass the pellet in the key.

Did the car start at the dealership and run OK until the battery died?

They do break with enough cycles of the ignition switch.- not internal to the lock cylinder but just outside the cylinder. The wire is a robotic type stranded wire - very small gauge. That's why prople solder a resistor across the harness - otherwise, the lock cylinder needs to be replaced and re-keyed to the original key.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Did You install the "Pro module" yourself?

Did the car start at any time after the dealership installed the new lock?

Did You (or they) ever reset the codes?

Have You measured the resistance on connection after installing "Pro module"?

I know it is tight by the firewall - maybe bad connection on the far side from tampering whit it?

1. yes

2. no

3. yes

4. no, but. only one setting lets it crank. which means resistance is correct.

disconnected both battery cables to check them.

Getting an IP2750 PASS-KEY II Data Communication Failure and a PZ1558 BCM EPROM Checksum Error.

tried relearn procedure again, but still same. Is this looking like a bad bcm?

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I've never heard of the wires in the lock cylinder being broken. It sounds like someone was in the lock cylinder trying to bypass the pellet in the key.

Did the car start at the dealership and run OK until the battery died?

They do break with enough cycles of the ignition switch.- not internal to the lock cylinder but just outside the cylinder. The wire is a robotic type stranded wire - very small gauge. That's why people solder a resistor across the harness - otherwise, the lock cylinder needs to be replaced and re-keyed to the original key.

Yikes. With 15 years and 165,000 miles, and several worn-out keys I never had that. Thanks for the voice of experience with many cars.

Fine stranded wire is intended to not degrade with flexing, thus its use in robotics and other applications across flexing joints. But if it gets in the mode of doing most of its bending right at an end point, it can eventually break there. This is why installation usually involves an extra sleeve or shrink-wrap at the ends to prevent this. But repairs or tampering can disable this extra stiffening at the ends.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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If the B2750 DTC, PASSKey Data Communication Failure, is CURRENT, then you have a problem in communication between the IPC and the PCM. The 1997 FSM writeup on DTC B2750 is very brief, one page, 8C1-46 in the Instrument Panel Cluster section. There is a schematic showing the connections to the resistor in the pellet connecting through C202 with the WHT/BLK and PPL/WHT wires to the IPC module, terminals A10 (WHT/BLK, HIGH) and B10 (PPL/WHT, LOW). The only othe rconnections shown in the schematic are two grounds on the IPC module, BLK/WHT wires on terminals A12 and B12. The writeup says that the DTC is set when there is loss of communication between the IPC and PCM, and that if U1016 or P1604 are set to solve those problems first.

U1016 Loss of Class 2 Communication with PCM
P1604 Loss of IPC Serial Data

Apparently you don't have either of these. I would check again and see if the did crop up; if so, then the problem is likely in the network wire. If it did not, the last troubleshooting hint may tell us what is going on:

This condition may be caused by a password mismatch between the IPC and the PCM. Refer to IPC Programming Following Replacement in the section and perform the procedure.

So, if you are not getting U1016 and/or P1604 but are getting B2750, then it's possible that someone at the dealer looking at the IPC with a Tech II and accidentally erased or changed the password.

Translation: The dealer changed the lock cylinder and the car won't start. The codes indicate that the problem is something installed with a Tech II. Perhaps you should call them and politely ask them to please finish fixing the car. Remember that the service manager probably doesn't have a clue and wants to help but may be sensitive about something like this, so be gentle.

When you pick up the car, ask if it was test-driven, and start it and drive it away yourself.

How did you get the car home without starting it?

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Since it has the PASS KEY comm failure, I still think it has something to do with the resistor bypass that is in the ignition harness or with the "PRO MODULE" (whatever that is) that the original poster has installed in the car.

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I've never heard of the wires in the lock cylinder being broken. It sounds like someone was in the lock cylinder trying to bypass the pellet in the key.

Did the car start at the dealership and run OK until the battery died?

They do break with enough cycles of the ignition switch.- not internal to the lock cylinder but just outside the cylinder. The wire is a robotic type stranded wire - very small gauge. That's why people solder a resistor across the harness - otherwise, the lock cylinder needs to be replaced and re-keyed to the original key.

Yikes. With 15 years and 165,000 miles, and several worn-out keys I never had that. Thanks for the voice of experience with many cars.

Fine stranded wire is intended to not degrade with flexing, thus its use in robotics and other applications across flexing joints. But if it gets in the mode of doing most of its bending right at an end point, it can eventually break there. This is why installation usually involves an extra sleeve or shrink-wrap at the ends to prevent this. But repairs or tampering can disable this extra stiffening at the ends.

Jim,

Besides some of the members' cars on this board, My Fleetwood Brougham started to intermittently not start 10 years ago. At first, it was so intermittent that I wasn't concerned about it. Then it would not start an hour from home... after waiting for three minutes and attempting to start the car, it still wouldn't start. After the fifth or sixth time through, it started and the PASS KEY FAULT light stayed on. I knew I had better not shut it off until I got home and that I was going to have to fix it. I needed fuel, stopped at a gas station and left the car running and some nosy lady asked me, "Don't you know how to read?!" At first, I didn't realize she was talking to me and she repeated the phrase louder and I realized what she was going to lecture me on so I replied, "As a matter of fact, I can... do you have something you want me to read to you?" She stormed off and drove away... Anyway, when I removed the steering wheel and turn signal switch, I immediately saw the broken wire - it was completely severed and the only reason the car started was the wires happened to touch on the fifth or sixth try. I knew if I repaired the connection, it would just break next to the solder joint.

I bought a new ignition switch assembly and had it re-keyed to my existing gold keys and reinstalled it. I fabricated a "cheater cord" with the harness from the old ignition lock in case it ever happens again.

In hindsight, I should have just bypassed the system but I wanted to keep the car "all original" since I was the first owner and it has always been garaged, had not been in the winter road salt and was basically (and still is) in like-new condition.

My (wife's) '97 STS has 190,000 miles on it and has not had an issue with the PASS key system so the issue on the Fleetwood must have been a fluke. I think the PASS key 3 system with the transponder pellet in the key and no contacts/moving parts is a superior design.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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"Don't you know how to read?!" At first, I didn't realize she was talking to me and she repeated the phrase louder and I realized what she was going to lecture me on so I replied, "As a matter of fact, I can... do you have something you want me to read to you?"

Hey, I have had a hard day and that one made it all OK for me. Thank you for that.

At around 85,000 miles I got the "...MAY NOT START..." message and called OnStar, who made an appointment with my dealer on the spot. A new key fixed the problem. It happened a few years later and I just got a new key msyelf, and took the non-car keys and put them on a second keyring to lighten the load on the key while driving. I only needed one more key before I sold the car at about 165,000 miles, and it was fresh then.

I agree with keeping things like theft prevention original. In fact, my personal preference is to keep everything original because these extra features are reasons to drive a Cadillac, although I do realize that others may differ in that their use of the car does not demand, say, electronic suspension or speed-dependent steering, or high-temperature brake disks and pads.

I'm fascinated that a first owner would lay his own eyes on broken wires in an ignition switch. That it could happen at all makes me wonder about the installation. I know it's been years, but can you recall whether the computer wire was installed with sufficient length to flex, and with a little stiffening right at the ends?

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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"Don't you know how to read?!" At first, I didn't realize she was talking to me and she repeated the phrase louder and I realized what she was going to lecture me on so I replied, "As a matter of fact, I can... do you have something you want me to read to you?"

Hey, I have had a hard day and that one made it all OK for me. Thank you for that.

At around 85,000 miles I got the "...MAY NOT START..." message and called OnStar, who made an appointment with my dealer on the spot. A new key fixed the problem. It happened a few years later and I just got a new key msyelf, and took the non-car keys and put them on a second keyring to lighten the load on the key while driving. I only needed one more key before I sold the car at about 165,000 miles, and it was fresh then.

I agree with keeping things like theft prevention original. In fact, my personal preference is to keep everything original because these extra features are reasons to drive a Cadillac, although I do realize that others may differ in that their use of the car does not demand, say, electronic suspension or speed-dependent steering, or high-temperature brake disks and pads.

I'm fascinated that a first owner would lay his own eyes on broken wires in an ignition switch. That it could happen at all makes me wonder about the installation. I know it's been years, but can you recall whether the computer wire was installed with sufficient length to flex, and with a little stiffening right at the ends?

Jim,

Glad I made your day. I remember when the lady stormed off, I started laughing and chuckled most of the way home... The guy at the next pump island over was laughing.

My Fleetwood's keys are still functional - the contacts were not worn much on the set I use daily. The gold is worn but the contacts are OK. Once I replaced the ignition switch, all keys worked properly. Having the new lock cylinder re-keyed to my original keys was much cheaper than buying two ignition keys. Besides, the gold keys were discontinued by that time and I wanted to keep the car original. The other set of gold keys have never been used and I keep them with the original window sticker, VHS cassette tape of the introduction of the new Fleetwood, original sales brouchure and other original documents from the sale.

There was not any sign of improper installation - there appeared to be plenty of wire not to stress it while turning the key. I installed the new cylinder with the same length of slack in the wires as the original. I doubt I'll need to worry about it again as I only put 4000-5000 miles per year on it. I haven't even pulled it out of storage this year because the weather is so lousy here - one nice day and then 6 or 7 days of rain... I do want to get the old girl out of storage and back on the road for the season as I love driving it and it is like getting a new car every spring. It is my daily driver on nice days.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Yeah, mine came with two sets of gold keys, too. My wife lost one set, and I wore out the other, although I did have one gold door/trunk/glove compartment key when I sold it, but the gold was pretty much worn off.

I don't think miles will cause the problem. Most cars will never have it, or we would be hearing a lot about it here. There are a lot of very high mileage Cadillacs coming here for help for all kinds of things.

Which brings us back to the thread. I'm wondering why the car was accepted if the dealer changed the ignition lock and the car wouldn't start, if it was starting when he brought it in or when it gave trouble like a dead battery. The code description and diagnosis aids in the FSM aren't exactly mysterious.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Since it has the PASS KEY comm failure, I still think it has something to do with the resistor bypass that is in the ignition harness or with the "PRO MODULE" (whatever that is) that the original poster has installed in the car.

Bypass was removed when new cylinder/key was done.

I'll probably remove the Pro Module just to see what happens.

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Which brings us back to the thread. I'm wondering why the car was accepted if the dealer changed the ignition lock and the car wouldn't start, if it was starting when he brought it in or when it gave trouble like a dead battery. The code description and diagnosis aids in the FSM aren't exactly mysterious.

It wasn't starting when it was taken there.

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If the B2750 DTC, PASSKey Data Communication Failure, is CURRENT, then you have a problem in communication between the IPC and the PCM. The 1997 FSM writeup on DTC B2750 is very brief, one page, 8C1-46 in the Instrument Panel Cluster section. There is a schematic showing the connections to the resistor in the pellet connecting through C202 with the WHT/BLK and PPL/WHT wires to the IPC module, terminals A10 (WHT/BLK, HIGH) and B10 (PPL/WHT, LOW). The only othe rconnections shown in the schematic are two grounds on the IPC module, BLK/WHT wires on terminals A12 and B12. The writeup says that the DTC is set when there is loss of communication between the IPC and PCM, and that if U1016 or P1604 are set to solve those problems first.

U1016 Loss of Class 2 Communication with PCM

P1604 Loss of IPC Serial Data

Apparently you don't have either of these. I would check again and see if the did crop up; if so, then the problem is likely in the network wire. If it did not, the last troubleshooting hint may tell us what is going on:

This condition may be caused by a password mismatch between the IPC and the PCM. Refer to IPC Programming Following Replacement in the section and perform the procedure.

So, if you are not getting U1016 and/or P1604 but are getting B2750, then it's possible that someone at the dealer looking at the IPC with a Tech II and accidentally erased or changed the password.

Translation: The dealer changed the lock cylinder and the car won't start. The codes indicate that the problem is something installed with a Tech II. Perhaps you should call them and politely ask them to please finish fixing the car. Remember that the service manager probably doesn't have a clue and wants to help but may be sensitive about something like this, so be gentle.

When you pick up the car, ask if it was test-driven, and start it and drive it away yourself.

How did you get the car home without starting it?

Car was towed home from that GM/Chevy dealer because the lock cylinder was changed and didn't work. After some digging (and remembering) found that there are basically two no-start situations that could are usually caused by theft system - No Crank, No Start and Crank, but No Start. the first is usually caused by broken wires in lock cylinder. My car had second problem. Even though the lock cylinder WAS bad, that wasn't what was causing this problem. The bypass was working, or else the car wouldn't crank at all. They changed the wrong thing, then wanted to further diagnose it - at $113/hour... couldn't afford that yet . that's why I left there.. Local Caddy dealer was booked for whole next week. May eventually end up there if I can't figure this out soon.

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$113.00 per hour for them to basically throw parts at it is obscene.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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There are reasons for the Goodwrench hourly rate:  Goodwrench training, the Goodwrench guarantee, and confidence in the repair.  The Goodwrench training is to fully diagnose a car before starting work.  I'm looking at a page in the 2003 FSM, "Strategy Based Diagnosis," that is apparently an overview of how a tech is supposed to look at a car presented for repair or service.  There is a figure with an action, decision, and procedure flow chart that is reminiscent of the step-by-step processes described for most of the DTCs.  Here it is:

 

 

Strategy  Based Diagnosis photo Stratedgy_Based_Diagnosis.png

 

 

Note that the first things you do are listen to the customer and verify his concerns, run the OBD codes, and check for relevant TSBs and other bulletins. The rest follows from common sense. The conclusion of the repair is marked by a decision: if you have not verified the cause of the problem, you go back and re-diagnose the problem. You are done when you verify that the problem is fixed.

 

I'm not seeing that here. The car was towed in, a part was replaced, and the car was released because they then called the customer and told him that they were going on an Easter-egg hunt. This implies to me that they didn't do the top four blocks in the system, in particular run the DTCs and check the FSM and "follow published DTC diagnostics," for which I posted quotes from the 1997 FSM for B2750 in post #14 above. Unless fmw63 tells me different, it looks like they didn't address the other codes. In fact the only evidence that they used a Tech II is the B2750; if that didn't appear before they worked on it, then they probably accidentally changed the IPC password.

 

Please tell me I'm wrong here, but it looks like it will take a dealer or a mechanic with a good scan tool to deal with B2750. I don't see B1631 or B1632 DTCs in the 1997 FSM but I do see P1631 and P1632 DTCs with the same descriptions on pages 6-598 and 6-599. The writeup for P1631 says that either the IPC or PCM has its password erased or disrupted and a "theft learn procedure must be followed." P1632 tells you that the theft deterrent logic has turned off the fuel, which means that the car will crank but not start. It's probably a result of the password problem but the Diagnostic Aids for P1632 say to check for a bad or worn key.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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It just hit me that all this car may need is the "theft learn procedure." They say you can use something called a "T50" or "T60." This is probably a limited OBD scanner for locksmiths and such. Without such a tool, the process is (1997 FSM, p. 8C1-4) is to make sure that the battery is fully charged so it doesn't drop below 10.4 Volts if the key is left on for a half our, then turn the key ON for ten minutes and turn it OFF; do this three times. Then, clear the codes and see if the password problem is gone. This may also program the IPC to accept whatever key resistance is being used, if it is one of the correct ones. It's OK to use a trickle charger to keep the battery up while doing this.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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