no brakes again

[rockfangd]

Hi all. My 96 Deville has no brakes for the third time during my ownership. All I can say is Welcome to NY. As hard as I try my Deville is rusting.

Anyway The information I am looking for is,

Does anyone know or have a diagram explaining which line goes where off the abs unit.

and does anyone have any info of exactly what extra parts are inline throughout the car?

I have already replaced the lines from the master to the abs unit, and the front brake hoses.

Everything else looks horrible, and I lost all braking again the other day at a very unfortunate time.

This time it emptied just forward of the driver door.

Thanks all for any help in advance, this year has been horrible already and this is just being a topper to it all. hard to believe we are only halfway through january and things could be so poor.

[Cadillac Jim]

I believe that you are talking about the Brake Pressure Modulator Valve (BPMV), the pump/manifold that the EBTCM bolts to. I have the 1997 FSM which will differ in that ICCS (Stabilitrak, or ESC) is standard on all models with the E/K platform in 1997 but was not in 1996. If you don't have Stabilitrak, your EBTCM will not have accelerometer and yaw rate inputs or a solenoid relay, and the BPMV will not have the ICCS relays, but the pluming should be the same. There are two versions of ICCS, 1 and 2, and apparently 1 is standard on the SLS and 2 is standard on the Deville, STS, and Eldorado and is called Stabilitrak. ICCS1 is not called Stabilitrak for some reason and does not have the accelerometer and yaw rate sensors.

The problem is that the FSM disgrams that I have in the manual don't show the actual hoses. Figure 1 on page 5E2-5 shows the plumbing schematic including the master cylinder, the BPMV, and all four wheel cylinders. Apparently a brake hose between the BPMV and the LF wheel broke on you. The RF/LR brakes should have still worked unless you were low in fluid in the rear half of the master cylinder.

The BPMV R&R instructions on page 5E2-213 are no help either. There is the Important notice [!] "Note location of brake pipes to use as an aid during installation." Later on, it says

CAUTION: Make sure brake pipes are correctly connected to BPMV. If brake pipes are switched by mistake, wheel lockup wil occur and personal injury may result. The only safe way this condition can be detected is by using the scan tool.

Figure 1 shows all the plumbing in schematic form. I can scan and post it if you like. All it shows is the master cylinder at the top, the BPMV in the middle with internal schematic shown, and the four wheels at the bottom. The two master cylinder inputs go into the BPMV and the four wheels come out of the BPMV. The front half of the master cylinder operates the LF and RR brakes, and the rear half of the master cylinder operates the RF and LR brakes.

I don't have the car on-hand anymore to jack up and look at the BPMV and brake lines. For this we need someone who has a car and/or photos, or who has done this job and has his notes about which brake lines go into which ports of the BPMV on hand.

[winterset]

I am curious if you change your brake fluid every 2 years? Sounds like you are certain it rusted from the outside in. I know you only owned the car for only the last few years. Do the lines have rust peeling off? It's unfortunate lines didn't go the route of stainless steel like the exhaust.

[KHE]

If you replace the lines one at a time, you will have the correct lines to the correct ports. It sounds as if you may have all them removed?

If you can, buy the brake lines in 20 foot lengths so you don't have joints. If you can get the coated brake line, that is a better way to go.

[rockfangd]

I have owned the car almost 5 years.

All lines are still intact., .

I change the fluid anually. The lines are just rotted from the outside. if you touch them they want to fall apart. I dont know if one of the rears blew or a front because they all go to the EBTCM at the left front of the subframe.

I have 2 rolls of the new style line, it flares nicely and is supposed to resist rust and corrosion. but I doubt it will. nothing is resistant around here.

[KHE]

I have owned the car almost 5 years.

All lines are still intact., .

I change the fluid anually. The lines are just rotted from the outside. if you touch them they want to fall apart. I dont know if one of the rears blew or a front because they all go to the EBTCM at the left front of the subframe.

I have 2 rolls of the new style line, it flares nicely and is supposed to resist rust and corrosion. but I doubt it will. nothing is resistant around here.

Yearly brake fluid changes are excessive - the guru used to say 10 years/100,000 miles but brake fluid is relatively inexpensive. I think the most important thing you can do is wash the car regularly and spray off the undercarriage, brake lines, etc. I've been doing that with my '97 STS and the brake lines are corrosion free for the most part except where they pass through the plastic hangers. I live in Michigan and they DUMP the salt on the roads.

[winterset]

Don't forget to spray them with WD-40. Every year before winter driving season.

[Göran W]

Change to CuNi-tubes! Last for ever......

[Cadillac Jim]

The OEM brake lines are a mild stainless steel. Because the lines must be bent, sometimes at tight radii, without crimping or cracking, the alloy isn't high nickel or chrome and will rust eventually. Premium brake lines like Göran W says will fix that problem, at a price. It does seem that the newer CuNi brake line is superior to the old mild stainless steel brake lines, both for bending and for corrosion, and a lot of new cars are coming with it.

[rockfangd]

Think that that is what I bought. I used them in my Seville last year flared and bent easily. looks almost like copper line but I believe it is nickel

[Cadillac Jim]

Can you use your existing plumbing to keep the wheels connected to the right BPMV port? Or, do you need someone with a car and a lift handy that can do a diagram for you?

Since this is not handled in the FSM and can be a problem with cars in the 1993-1999 model year range, particularly in the rust belt, perhaps such a diagram would be a good thing to have on a permanent page on Caddyinfo. I found a diagram on Autozone that may help with the master cylinder and front wheels but there is a proportioning valve for the rears that cannot be traced on that diagram.

What we need is someone with a 1993-1999 E/K car, preferably with Stabilitrak, to trace the brake lines and post the plumbing hookup for the BPMV. This would need to include the two brake lines to the proportioning valve in the rear and the brake lines from it.

[rockfangd]

Well I figured on trying to trace the lines before I try to remove any. I know the 2 from the master but thats it. When I did my mains 2 years back I sprayed the heck out of the lines and fittings at the abs unit so I hope it helps in the removal.

I might add I wash my cars regularly but it doesnt help much around here, and I also coat the lines but that doesnt helps either when you cant even see the lines by the transmission. Salt gets into places that washing cant even get to.

[KHE]

If you replace the lines one at a time, keeping the correct line connected to the correct port shouldn't be a problem unless I'm missing something.

[PAUL T]

I always changed my brake lines myself on all my vehicles except the rear lines on my 97 Deville. After a few hours of trying to reach connections in ungodly locations and getting them loose, I admitted defeat. I did not have the luxury of a lift, just a jack and stands. I think it would have been easier to drop the suspension to get to them. If it is a rear line and you do not have access to a lift good luck.

[rockfangd]

they suck. I did them last year on my seville. new valves, new lines, everything. I hope the lines last forever lol. I figure my Deville has the same setup. no real easy way to get to the fittings

[rockfangd]

well tomorrow I am going to attempt to get my deville back up.. Not having it has been killing me, been cold here. I am not looking forward to it but am hoping for the best. This month has been a wreck

[guyslp]

It sounds, from earlier in the thread, like you have wisely purchased CuNiFer (AKA EZ-Bend, and several other trade names) brake line. Believe me, you will not regret this decision from any standpoint. The stuff is much easier to bend and flare and its corrosion resistance is such that the rest of the car will probably be a pile of rust with the brake lines lying atop it.

Good luck with the job. It's certainly much easier to complete with cunifer line than mild steel.

Brian

[rockfangd]

that is what I want. I love the way they bend and flare. time will be the test.

[rockfangd]

ok to update.

Got 3 out of 4 lines done.

Here is the location layout for the abs unit

TOP LEFT MASTER TOP RIGHT MASTER

MIDDLE LEFT, LEFT REAR MIDDLE RIGHT, RIGHT REAR

BOTTOM LEFT, LEFT FRONT BOTTOM RIGHT, RIGHT FRONT

THE FRONT LINES AT THE ABS UNIT USE A LARGER FITTING BUT STILL USE A 3/16 LINE. i GOT LUCKY i WAS PREPARED AHEAD OF TIME.

So anyway. all 4 lines were rotten between the transmission and the left body. Someone replaced 1 rear line(right rear) all the rest were original. I ran into a problem though. I need to confirm this somehow but the original line to the rear had a proportioning valve inline, the replaced line did not. I need to know if there are supposed to be one on each line to the rear.

The one I took out was not salvageable so I just ran a union in the new line for temporarily. Hopefully someone can help me on the issue.

I replaced the front brake hoses also. I hope to have everything finished and bled out tomorrow. I will update once finished. sorry too cold for pics

[Cadillac Jim]

I wouldn't use anything except the pressure relief valve part number from the old one or verified for my car by VIN number. The reason is that the purpose of the valve is to apply less braking on the rear on hard braking, which will lock up the rears as braking gets high and weight transfers to the front wheels. Although one Eldorado, Seville, or Deville is much like another, particularly one model year apart where there has not been a platform or brake change, but the function of the pressure relief valve is programmed into the ABS, TC, and ESC (Stabilitrak). If it's wrong, they won't work as well, and if they are different between the two rear wheels, you can count on the car going a little bit sideways if you try to lock up the wheels, and trying to steer at the same time, one of the main points of TC, will get a little trickier, possibly when you don;t need anything to get trickier.

Anyone who knows how to program a new out-of-the-box EBTCM using a Tech II, using the GM security codes and accessing the VIN database, can tell us about programming all the car's dynamic parameters into the EBTCM, where ABS, TC and ESC live.

But any such effect in using 1997 parts on a 1996 Deville may be down in the noise, I have no way of knowing without specific engineering data on the parts. I'm a purist, in that my thinking is that things like ABS/TC/ESC, electronic suspension, and high performance tires are all part of why I drive a Cadillac and I would never disable those on my car. But others simply are using a fine older car as a daily driver and don't see the expense as their best decision when it's time to, say, replace the struts or shocks. In other words, when I need to maintain my car, I think of what I want to drive, not make a decision like it's going to go up for sale Monday morning.

[rockfangd]

Well happy to say I have brakes again. great pedal, great brakes. In spring I will install proportioning valves for the rear brakes. but for now its good enough for me.

If it werent so cold I would have had it done in half the time. lesson learned

[Cadillac Jim]

Keep us posted on the final victory when you put in the proportioning valves.

[rockfangd]

will do. I must say I am so happy to have my deville back. I love my Deville. Especially in the cold winter. It doesnt even phase it.

[KHE]

How did you like working with the copper-nickel brake line? I've heard good things about copper-nickel brake line.

[rockfangd]

I will never use any other line. It is 100 times better. I have used it for 2 years now and love it