Ranger Posted November 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Well I changed the plugs this morning and I am glad to say she now purrs like a kitten and runs like a thoroubred. I have never seen a bad plug or plugs give such conflicting symptoms. As I said, I always think the worst. Gotta stop doing that. I think it is partially due to spending too much time here . Out of 8 plugs only one had a slight remnant of a platinum tip. In fact, most were slightly eroded where the platinum tip had once been. All gaps were in the .060 range. I can now feel the torque converter lock up again at 41 MPH and RPM at 70 MPH is steady at 1950 RPM (adallac, seems to prove your theory). Thanks to all for the help, suggestions and moral support. Oh yeah, and apologies to the dealer for what I was thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Ranger, I am glad you was able to handle the situation. Let us know when you make 200.000 miles. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Larry, Glad your car is fixed and it was something simple. When I replaced the plugs on my '96, I was pleased on how easy it was - even the rear bank. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 BTW, Retorque the plugs after a day or two of driving. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Kevin was right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Larry, Glad your car is fixed and it was something simple. When I replaced the plugs on my '96, I was pleased on how easy it was - even the rear bank. Yeah, I was expecting that right bank to been much harder than it actually was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Well, it appears I spoke too soon. On the way to work this afternoon I got the same studder, chuggle, misfire in the exact same location on the exact same ramp as were it first started. I is intermittent however and I was unable to duplicate it later. I suspect there are demons involved here. About the only explanation I can come up with (other than demons) is that when I changed the plugs, I jostled the wires and temporarily fixed the misfire. Just when you think it is safe to go back in the water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Well it seems to be ignition related especially since you got that code. Did you get a chance to look over the wires? Did they seem to have a positive snap connection on the plugs? What are the symptoms of an ignition module going out, mine was replaced right before I bought my 96. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Yeah mike, the wires all snapped on pretty cleanly. I haven't been able to check the resistence on them as I broke my DVM. I'm going to try to find one tomorrow as I guess wires would be the next logical step unless a coil can be intermittent. The ICM is another though (last I hope $$$$) but I am not sure what symptoms it would cause. I would suspect a no start/run complete failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Re-torque the spark plugs. When I replaced the plugs on my '96, I re-torqued them the next day and was able to notice movement when re-torquing to 11 ft-lbs. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Re-torque the spark plugs. When I replaced the plugs on my '96, I re-torqued them the next day and was able to notice movement when re-torquing to 11 ft-lbs. But that would'nt cause a misfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 I checked the resistence on my plug wires. First let me say (again) that electrical is not my strong point, so if I say something stupid, be gentle. Here are the readings I got with the DVM set at the 20K setting. #1 2.01K #2 2.87K #3 1.46K #4 3.00K #5 1.07K #6 2.99K #7 1.39K #8 2.67K Do these readings look ok? If so, the next step has to be a coil. The mis seems to me intermittent and more so when up to operating tempurature. Can a coil be intermittent? Also, the '97 service manual says on page 6-428 step 9, after locating a misfiring plug, check the resistence on that cylinders wire and it should not be below 15K. What? All of mine are below 15K! Does that mean all my wires are bad or did I use the wrong setting? Also, are GM coils all the same? If the wires appear to be good, can I swap a coil from my wifes '96 Bonneville 3800 series II to eliminate a bad coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 check the resistence on that cylinders wire and it should not be below 15K. What? All of mine are below 15K! The resistance should be less than 15 KOm. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 check the resistence on that cylinders wire and it should not be below 15K. What? All of mine are below 15K! The resistance should be less than 15 KOm. I just swapped all 4 coils, one by one with one I took out of my wifes car. Same problem, so the coils are good. Adallac, I just reread the manual and you are correct. They should be less than 15K. Does that mean I used the wrong setting and moving the decemal over one place most of my wires are over 15K resistence and therefore should be replaced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 I just swapped all 4 coils, one by one with one I took out of my wifes car. Same problem, so the coils are good. Adallac, I just reread the manual and you are correct. They should be less than 15K. Does that mean I used the wrong setting and moving the decemal over one place most of my wires are over 15K resistence and therefore should be replaced? Could be. Can you measure the resistance of your key with the same settings? I assume you know the value of your ignition key resistor. It would give yousome idea about the correctness of your measurements. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 I get confused with this also, low resistence to me would mean that the wire is bad. For instance your number 3, 5 and 7 plug wires have lower resistance which could indicate a breakdown of the core or connections that is less incapable of carrying the current at a certain point. I am not an electrician so if I am way off base I apoligize in advance. If I am reading your measurements right, you are ranging from 1000 to 3000 ohm resistance... Lets analyze this further... bbobynski once stated that the lengths should not make a material difference in the resistance, however I dont know if this range of 1000 to 3000 is considered to wide.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 I get confused with this also, low resistence to me would mean that the wire is bad. For instance your number 3, 5 and 7 plug wires have lower resistance which could indicate a breakdown of the core or connections that is less incapable of carrying the current at a certain point. I am not an electrician so if I am way off base I apoligize in advance. If I am reading your measurements right, you are ranging from 1000 to 3000 ohm resistance... Lets analyze this further... bbobynski once stated that the lengths should not make a material difference in the resistance, however I dont know if this range of 1000 to 3000 is considered to wide.. Mike, Lower resistance does not indicate a brakedownn. That's actually a higher resistance what would suggest deteriorating performance of the wires. I do not believe Guru (the Great ) could say the length did not make difference. The resistance is PROPORTIONAL to the length. Acually the resistance we measure is the resistance to DC. The actual resistance to pulces of high voltage will be absolutely different, but the measurements we make with an ohmmeter can telll us about the general condition of the wires. Actually the wires you listed are the best among Ranger's pluf wires. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 This is what Guru stated that I misunderstood. WHat I misunderstood was "but they should all be in the same ball park". Use your VOM to check for continuity on each wire from terminal to terminal. Compare the various resistences of the wires..they should correlate very closely to the wire lengths...i.e..the longest wires will have more resistence and the shorter ones less but they should all be in the same ball park. I need to brush up on my resistance basics, it has always confused me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Adallac, That is pretty much my understanding, less resistence is better. If those numbers equate to thousands then #1, #3 & #5 are the only ones below 15K and as per the manual (if I understood it correctly) I am in need of a set of wires. I just want someone more knowledgable than I in this field to confirm that those numbers are in fact bad and would cause the misfire I am expiriencing before I start throwing parts at it. Mike, I did not check for continuity but I suspect if there were no continuity I would not get an ohm reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Yes Larry, your wires seem to be too good if they are between 1.4KOm and 3KOm. Looks like you indeed missplaced the decimal point and some of them are realy bad which means you probably need a new set. I believe Jadcock played with wires recently, he could give us a better idea about the resistance of the plug wires. Can you measure the resistor on your key? Just to make sure your measurements were accurate in terms of the order of magnitude (decimal point in other words)? The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 My key measures .67 when using the 20K setting. Acceptable range is 650-728. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 My key measures .67 when using the 20K setting. Acceptable range is 650-728. If you knew the value of the resistor from an independent source and it coincided with what you measured yourself you can use it as an starting point to check the correctness of your wire measurements. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Larry: Your plug wire resistance measurements "appear" OK to me. I pulled my #8 plug wire tonight (#8 should be the longest one on a '98 engine) and it measured 9,600 ohms (9.6K Ohms). Certainly well within specifications of "less than 15K Ohms". While you are concentrating on ignition, be certain all the coil and plug end connectors are squeaky clean and tight. It can be impossible to know if the carbon conductor inside the plug wire is making proper contact with the end connectors. But if you are pretty sure the wires are original equipment, consider the possibility that one or more of the wires has been thermal cycled too many times and a gap has developed in the carbon conductive material. And, have you eliminated an injector problem 100%? Quote: "My key measures .67 when using the 20K setting. Acceptable range is 650-728." If that was my analog meter reading on a 20K range, I would slap the meter a few times. But my gut feel from this distance tells me your key resistance is 670 Ohms. The key works OK, right? Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 This leads me to beleive that the 2.99 measured on #6 is actually 29,900 or 29.9K, well over the 15K max. I think the decemal just moves with the setting you use on the DVM but like I said this is not my strong point and want to be sure. I'm hoping someone will varify this tonight so I can get a new set of wires somewhere tomorrow morning before I have to go to work. Obviously I probably won't be able to get Delco's (don't want to pay dealer prices) unless I call Rock Auto and have them shipped in a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Larry: Your plug wire resistance measurements "appear" OK to me. I pulled my #8 plug wire tonight (#8 should be the longest one on a '98 engine) and it measured 9,600 ohms (9.6K Ohms). Certainly well within specifications of "less than 15K Ohms". JimD, The problem is that Larry is not sure he got correct values for the wires. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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