Ignition Miss

[JasonA]

Hey everyone. I'm hoping this is an easy one. I normally don't drive the Cadillac to work, but I did so today. In the morning, I noticed a slight "chuggle" when I would dip past 1/2 throttle or thereabouts. I didn't think too much of it, but the condition worsened on the drive home. There's a very distinct point in the throttle's travel where the miss occurs...after about 1/2 or so, there's a distinct pulsing going on (and drop in power). If the converter is not engaged, I can see that on the tach. If I back off just a bit, the engine smooths right out and some power is restored. In drive, at idle, there's just the SLIGHTEST engine vibration (felt in the car), and I wouldn't think much of it otherwise, but I know you normally can't feel this engine run, so I know something's up.

We just got it back from having the fuel rail done. The plugs and wires are almost 138,000 miles old now. I'm thinking that the stress of being pulled off and reinstalled during the recall procedure was the last straw for one of them. As Bbobynski would say, "they don't owe me a dime at this point."

Does this sound like a plug wire to anyone else? It seems reasonable to me, especially knowing they were just exercised during the recall procedure. I guess a coil could be going out, but that would be an odd coinkeydink. There are no codes, and I don't think one can do the cylinder balance testing on a '97 like one could on an earlier model (like a '94 for example). I ohmed the front four plug wires and at rest, all the resistances were between 27k and 32k ohms. Nothing obvious, but again, the miss doesn't occur unless the engine is under a good load. Sound like a plug wire? Is it finally time to retire these?

Thanks in advance,

[calif phil]

Sure does sound like a plug wire. You will notice a bad plug wire the most in overdrive. It's time for a new Delco set.

[adallak]

Could the shop reroute them a little bit so that say, one of wires get close to metal parts and leaks high voltage to the ground through weakened wire isolation? One of my plug wires contacted metal and was kind of burnt. After I wrapped it up with teflon engine runs like silk.

[JasonA]

Sure does sound like a plug wire. You will notice a bad plug wire the most in overdrive. It's time for a new Delco set.

In overdrive, the pulsations sure came on at a slower engine speed. It was most noticeable when it was in overdrive, pulling a hill at about 1300 rpm. Normally, it'd be very smooth, but there was a very noticeable series of pulsations if I kept my foot in it. I could manually downshift into 3rd, ease off the gas a bit (for the engine was spinning faster), and it'd be smooth again. Unfortunately, I didn't find one of the front wires to be bad on inspection, but since it only occurs under load, I think it's very likely a bad wire.

Dang...only 138,000 miles out of the OE set. Think I should put Delco back on? I'm debating doing the plugs also, but it runs so good, I hesitate to change anything that ain't broke. I think I'm gonna leave 'em for now.

[JasonA]

Could the shop reroute them a little bit so that say, one of wires get close to metal parts and leaks high voltage to the ground through weakened wire isolation? One of my plug wires contacted metal and was kind of burnt. After I wrapped it up with teflon engine runs like silk.

The shop had to pull the front wires off the spark plugs, and lay them up, but they were put back down in the same routing. The reason I suspect it was this procedure that did it was because the wires had to be wrapped in plastic conduit (according to the GM recall procedure), and they had to be handled more than 138,000 mile wires may like to have been. I'm sure they were getting somewhat fragile at this point anyway, so it was only a matter of time.

[adallak]

Could the shop reroute them a little bit so that say, one of wires get close to metal parts and leaks high voltage to the ground through weakened wire isolation? One of my plug wires contacted metal and was kind of burnt. After I wrapped it up with teflon engine runs like silk. 

The shop had to pull the front wires off the spark plugs, and lay them up, but they were put back down in the same routing. The reason I suspect it was this procedure that did it was because the wires had to be wrapped in plastic conduit (according to the GM recall procedure), and they had to be handled more than 138,000 mile wires may like to have been. I'm sure they were getting somewhat fragile at this point anyway, so it was only a matter of time.

I would pull the four front plug boots, put some dielectric grease on the plugs and put the boots back rotating them to ensure god contact. That's easy procedure but may work. Besides when you unwrup the wires you may find something wrong with them. Good luck anyway.

[Northstar]

did you spray them yet?

[KHE]

Jason,

Pull the front four plugs and inspect the ground electrode. I will bet that you will find one or more plugs that are missing the platinum pad.

I had similar symptoms on my '96 Seville a couple of months ago. I checked the fuel pressure and it was normal. I misted the plug wires and there was no arcing. I pulled the front four plugs and three of the four plugs were missing the platinum pad on the ground electrode. I then removed the four rear plugs and three of the four plugs were missing the platinum pad on the ground electrode. The gap on the 6 plugs that were missing the platinum pads was .068-.070 and the spec. is .050.

I regapped the worn plugs to .050", re-installed them, test drove the car and it was fine. The next day, I installed a new set of AC 41-950 plugs.

My car had 92,000 miles on it. At 138,000 miles, it is very likely you will discover plugs missing the platinum pads.

[Regis]

138,000 miles on the original plugs and wires..... wow! That's impressive Jason.

[JasonA]

Thanks guys -- you may have talked me into putting new plugs in it too. I'm apprehensive about removing the plugs after so many miles. I hope I don't strip a few threads. Any tips? Just take a socket to them and, if further prodding is needed, try tapping it around with a light hammer?

[bigfoo]

Yea.. I really had to put my back into it to get my plugs out when I changed them.. they were in there real good. Didn't use a hammer though. I'd say, if you can't break them loose with a normal socket wrench using your own strength then use a small hammer. I was able to get them though, although the back ones gave me some hell on leverage

[KHE]

Thanks guys -- you may have talked me into putting new plugs in it too. I'm apprehensive about removing the plugs after so many miles. I hope I don't strip a few threads. Any tips? Just take a socket to them and, if further prodding is needed, try tapping it around with a light hammer?

Inspect the plugs first to make sure they are bad. Use an air impact wrench to break them loose. If you don't have one, find someone who has a compressor and impact. You won't strip any threads with the impact and it is a straight shot with a 6" extension.

I had the same concern when I did mine - that's why I used my impact to break them loose - it worked great.

[JasonA]

After GMpartsdirect.com STILL hasn't come through with the wires, I had no choice but to get them locally, at Advance Auto. A short story: I ordered the wires through gmpartsdirect.com on 8 November. Little did I know they were a special order item. I did not receive any correspondence from them (desite their promises to do otherwise). After contacting them on Wednesday, they wrote back on Thursday indicating that the item should be shipped this week, and I'd get an email. Still no email, and a check of the order status still reveals "in processing" or whatever. I asked them to cancel the order, even though they claim that you can't cancel an order on special order parts. I would have been nice if they told me they were special order when I first put in the request. I'm not worried...I've had good luck with consumer protection from Visa before.

Anyway, we're leaving down for Arkansas next weekend (a 900 mile trip, one way) and I HAD to have this car running again for that. Even if the wires shipped first thing on Monday (which I'd doubt anyway), they'd barely get here on time and if that didn't fix the problem, I'd be S.O.L. So I gave 85 bucks with tax for a set of Autolite Professional wires at Advance. To tell the truth, I'm fairly impressed with this set. The lengths matched the OE wires exactly, the boots were exactly the same, and they were all pre-greased with silicone. Nice touch. Car purrs like a kitten now. Runs to redline very smooth and strong now...maybe stronger than before...but I have been driving my 4-cylinder truck around for the past week and a half, so my perception of speed is probably tainted.

As I backed out of the garage today to test drive the Seville, I noticed a pool of red on the floor...just a small puddle of a few teaspoons. Crap...needs a new tranny pan gasket I figure. As I crawl under there, I realize it's coolant (under the driver's side), but I can't see where it's coming from. I've done changed the water pump a few years ago, and the case looks dry. Everything looks dry in fact, except for the lower subframe above the leak. I'll have to monitor that over the next few days. When it rains it pours. At least the miss is fixed now. We'll see how long the Autolites last. No troubles yet.

[adallak]

After GMpartsdirect.com STILL hasn't come through with the wires, I had no choice but to get them locally, at Advance Auto. A short story: I ordered the wires through gmpartsdirect.com on 8 November. Little did I know they were a special order item. I did not receive any correspondence from them (desite their promises to do otherwise). After contacting them on Wednesday, they wrote back on Thursday indicating that the item should be shipped this week, and I'd get an email. Still no email, and a check of the order status still reveals "in processing" or whatever. I asked them to cancel the order, even though they claim that you can't cancel an order on special order parts. I would have been nice if they told me they were special order when I first put in the request. I'm not worried...I've had good luck with consumer protection from Visa before

Jason,

Gmpartsdirect.com has great prices bad very bad and unfriendly customer service. They sold me a part I did not need. When I asked them get it back since it was their "mistake" they refused calling it "special order". I would not really care (just some $40) but their lies made me really angry with them. Long story shirt - I made them not only return the money but also arrange a DHL pick up from my door at their expense.

BTW, is not it strange people get all kinds of problems after they get back their cars from stealership? I am afraid Ranger's current problem is stealership generated one too:angry:

[growe3]

Jason,

Regarding the coolant leak, check the screw clamps on the two short silicone coolant hoses, just below the throttle body and towards the firewall. They will usually start leaking at high RPM when the system is under a lot of water pump pressure, and not leak at idle or low speed. Usually there is no reason to replace these special hoses, just tighten them.

-George

[JasonA]

Thanks guys,

It is odd that problems just seem to arise after a dealership visit! I think the wires were caused by the dealership, but it wasn't their fault...they were just old enough that the next person who handled them enough was going to make one fail...and the dealership just happened to be that "next person".

I don't hold them accountable for that, but the coolant leak is weird. It hasn't leaked a single drop of coolant since I changed the water pump a few years ago. Now...after having been to the dealership for the fuel rail recall, and after driving a few miles with a misfire, there's a few teaspoons' worth on the ground. It's not coming from the head, and doesn't seem to be coming from the water pump casing or hoses. They're all dry. I was looking at one of the heater hoses (I think it is) that connects to the water pump casing at the back, just behind the lower radiator hose. Most of it is hard plastic, but there's a 3" rubber section at the end, where it mates to the water pump. That rubber section looks "old" and I remember manipulating that quite a bit during the water pump change. Perhaps this little hose section has started to leak. What's even more of a coincidence is that the car has never sat this long before since the water pump change. After I found the misfire 2 weeks ago this coming Tuesday, we didn't drive it at all until I put the new wires on it...and that's when it peed on the garage floor. Weird.

[Regis]

Thanks guys -- you may have talked me into putting new plugs in it too. I'm apprehensive about removing the plugs after so many miles. I hope I don't strip a few threads. Any tips? Just take a socket to them and, if further prodding is needed, try tapping it around with a light hammer?

A 5 foot breaker bar should make quick work of any stubborn plug (just kidding). I've never been able to get more then 1/8 of a turn on the plugs myself. I've definitely never been able to get a full 1/4 turn. As a result removal of the plugs has never required much effort even with a lot of miles on them. You look like a solid guy Jason so I don't imagine those plugs will give you much trouble unless they were originally over turned or you didn't eat your Wheaties.

-kg

[JasonA]

Regarding the coolant leak, check the screw clamps on the two short silicone coolant hoses, just below the throttle body and towards the firewall.

George, upon inspection, I think you're on the money -- only closer to the water pump. There's a short (~3") section of plain rubber hose that connects the plastic heater hose tubing to the water pump. There's also some crusty reddish staining near the connections, and a slightly damp piece of wire looming below this area, so I think it's this rubber hose that's leaking. I tightened the clamps on these and I'll check it out over the next few days. It makes me feel better though -- knowing that it's not something catastrophic that's going to blow up on us en route to Arkansas. Even if it does keep leaking, it'll just drip overnight until I get unlazy enough to drain the system and replace that hose.

On a side note, I also changed the oil today and installed my new drain plug. Comparing new-to-old, the rubber gasket on the old plug was completely flattened (thus the leak). In addition, the new drain plug has a small magnet on the end of the bolt (like a pencil eraser), something the old plug didn't have. So...7 quarts of Pennzoil 10W-30 out and 7 more in. Only 66% on the oil life monitor had expired this time, but I wanted to get that leak fixed before our trip, and the only way to replace the drain plug is to...replace the drain plug. I went ahead and spun a new AC-Delco filter on it for kicks. Fresh and clean, with the Teflon Tire Shine that I'm absolutely loving. Ready for a Thanksgiving road trip!

[adallak]

I tightened the clamps on these and I'll check it out over the next few days.

I think you found at least one leak. I would wrap up the clamp with a paper towel and idle the motor for a while at some 3000-4000 RPM. If you run the engine manually and watch closely all the hose connections you may see some little sprays you would not see under lower RPMs. That's how I found the tiny defect on my old heater valve (a tee).

[JasonA]

The clamps fixed the leak I think...the bottom is dry after driving around all day today, so that appears to have been it. And just to follow up on the wires through GMpartsdirect.com...even though their site claims no returns on special order items, they did cancel the order upon my request (which really just made it easier on them). I would have refused shipping and the credit card charge anyway, and they probably realized that. Kudos to them for doing the right thing in the end.

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Your order has been cancelled.

Thank You www.GmPartsDirect.com

-----Original Message-----

From: Jennen and Jason Adcock [mailto:jnjadcock@yahoo.com]

Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:55 AM

To: Customer Service

Subject: RE: Customer Service Request--1645

Gentlemen,

Please cancel this order. Your business has not lived

up to the terms you posted on your website. You said

if the item would not ship out within 48 hours (if it

was not stocked), then you would send me an email

indicating that it was a special order part. You did

not. In your reply below to my inquiry, you said it

would ship by the end of the week (which was

yesterday) and that you would send me an email

indicating such. You did not. This is

unsatisfactory. Checking the order status online, the

order is still "in process", so I'm sure it hasn't

shipped yet. Please cancel this order immediately.

Thank you,

Jason Adcock

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