Engine Stalls at a Stop

[GearsNmotion]

Im not your avarage Joe here!

I was an ASE certified tech my certs a long expiered. I now build specialized machinery, been doing this for over ten years. I build very high precision CNC machinery now, for the areo space industruy. I have a very diverse skill set in machining and fabrication, along with a education in mechanical engeering. My company sends me all over the world because of my knowledge and abilities.

Making a bushing style insert is not rocket science. This is a must when dealing with aluminum this should have been done form the factory.

If there is something speacial about the Timesert that I am missing PLEASE ALABORATE. That fact that when installing one of these and using the tap to spead the bottom threads out. Tells me these are made of nothing more than mild steal or stainless. I deal with inserts like this all the time in my industry. Im not paying 500 dollars for something that cost 50 dollars to make and niether should any one else!! I would like to start a new thread on this and gather input on how these could be made in the average persons garage with out the use of a lathe. I have access to a lathe; however, not every one does. Therefore, I want to figure out an alternitve way to produce these that anyone can do with a simple drill press. It can be done and I will share my knowlegde of how. For less than half of what they want for those things I can point any one in the direction to purcahse the machines and tools that will be required to make these. Then you will have this stuff to make other stuff. A small band saw is one for starters.

The reason Im pulling the motor is because It has alot of miles on it. So If im going to put all this work into it I might as well rebuild it. Im getting to old to be leaning over the engine compartment to do this work. Its a lot easier to do on a stand and will yield more accurate work with out a sore back.

[KHE]

Sorry to hear you bought a car with known (to the previous owner) HG problem. The repair is not a cake walk because you have to take the engine out , fix it and put back. KHE managed to do the job without removing the engine, but that is KHE. We have a Hall of Fame for members who did HG repair themselves. You are about to enter that hall as well.

Despite I like very much people who do things they own way, this is probably one of those cases when you should follow the recommendations of those who have done the job. Chances to ruin the engine, or have it repaired again in a couple of thousand miles are very high.

I didn't repair the engine in the car - I removed it. I had planned on repairing it with the block in the car but it was such a PITA to remove the heads, I knew it would be a nightmare trying to re-assemble it. It took me an additional 20 to 30 minutes to pull the block after I had the heads off.

It is far easier to pull the engine and work on it vs. attempting the repair with the block in the car. It's much easier to get the timing marks aligned, etc.

I'd recommend keeping an eye out for a used Timesert kit and go that route vs. fabricating inserts.

[GearsNmotion]

Sorry to hear you bought a car with known (to the previous owner) HG problem. The repair is not a cake walk because you have to take the engine out , fix it and put back. KHE managed to do the job without removing the engine, but that is KHE. We have a Hall of Fame for members who did HG repair themselves. You are about to enter that hall as well.

Despite I like very much people who do things they own way, this is probably one of those cases when you should follow the recommendations of those who have done the job. Chances to ruin the engine, or have it repaired again in a couple of thousand miles are very high.

I didn't repair the engine in the car - I removed it. I had planned on repairing it with the block in the car but it was such a PITA to remove the heads, I knew it would be a nightmare trying to re-assemble it. It took me an additional 20 to 30 minutes to pull the block after I had the heads off.

It is far easier to pull the engine and work on it vs. attempting the repair with the block in the car. It's much easier to get the timing marks aligned, etc.

I'd recommend keeping an eye out for a used Timesert kit and go that route vs. fabricating inserts.

Isnt the Kit just 1" thick plate with a hardened bushing in it and some taps???? I saw the video on there site and the guy is using a hand dill. REALLY!!! A HAND DRILL!!!GIVE ME A BREAK!!! PLEASE!! When I do this Im planning on using a mag drill mounted to a steal plate thats bolted to the block. To center it you start your hole with a step drill. This will ensure your hole is center and the axis true to the original hole. If you want to throw your money away by all means go for it. They make those inserts with a CNC machine for penneys. I will not pay for these. Id rather make my own and Im sure others would like to know how as well.

Please just bare with me till I get to this point. Ill keep this part on this thread and let you senior members review what Im doing with this. I will conduct stress test on these inserts. Any one that would like to see any aditional testing done, let me know. Ill put my time into this if it will help others.

EDIT: I did see that the inserts come in 303 stainless or high carbon steel. Not sure about the high carbon steel but the stainless threaded rod can be aquired.

[BodybyFisher]

Im not your avarage Joe here!

I was an ASE certified tech my certs a long expiered. I now build specialized machinery, been doing this for over ten years. I build very high precision CNC machinery now, for the areo space industruy. I have a very diverse skill set in machining and fabrication, along with a education in mechanical engeering. My company sends me all over the world because of my knowledge and abilities.

Making a bushing style insert is not rocket science. This is a must when dealing with aluminum this should have been done form the factory.

If there is something speacial about the Timesert that I am missing PLEASE ALABORATE. That fact that when installing one of these and using the tap to spead the bottom threads out. Tells me these are made of nothing more than mild steal or stainless. I deal with inserts like this all the time in my industry. Im not paying 500 dollars for something that cost 50 dollars to make and niether should any one else!! I would like to start a new thread on this and gather input on how these could be made in the average persons garage with out the use of a lathe. I have access to a lathe; however, not every one does. Therefore, I want to figure out an alternitve way to produce these that anyone can do with a simple drill press. It can be done and I will share my knowlegde of how. For less than half of what they want for those things I can point any one in the direction to purcahse the machines and tools that will be required to make these. Then you will have this stuff to make other stuff. A small band saw is one for starters.

The reason Im pulling the motor is because It has alot of miles on it. So If im going to put all this work into it I might as well rebuild it. Im getting to old to be leaning over the engine compartment to do this work. Its a lot easier to do on a stand and will yield more accurate work with out a sore back.

I don't know where you are coming from with this "you are not an average Joe" stuff, but we are not about egos here and your sudden defensiveness is unnecessary here. You said this in your first post:

What I was wondering is can I heally coil the threads in the block for the head bolts. I hear the head bolts pull the threads out of the block which causes the HG problems

The name Northstar and Heli-Coil in the same sentence to many here screams novice or inexperienced. So please don't all of a sudden get indignant on us, we are here to help you and you gave no impression that you were a mechanic at some point in your life.

While I am at it please don't make statements like this "this should have been done from the factory"

Given the same constraints that the engineers were given, you would undoubtedly have done the same thing the Northstar Powertrain design team did. We can all build BULLET PROOF engines Monday Morning quarterbacking the design engineers without knowing the constraints they were under with regard to cost and production.

You see, GM designed and validated the timesert and it has become an industry standard. I am sure they had an unlimited budget and an unlimited number of Northstar blocks to make mistakes on. I don't have their resources and I don't have a supply of blocks to practice or test on or to validate the repair, do you? I mean, once I do my repair, I don't have a dyno to run the engine hard for the purpose of validating the timeserts and finding weaknesses. If I do the repair on my Northstar using an untested and untried methodology, my first warning that something is wrong is that I am on the New Jersey Turnpike at 4 AM and my temp gage is pinned on HOT.

Plus, I don't know if my bad back could withstand doing the job twice, so why not do it just once with a tried method.

GM, oh they just start over.

Also consider that timesert has history of being a successful repair. I just spoke to a tech from timesert, they are rolled carbon steel, he stated that if they put the serts into a block of aluminum alloy that they break bolts before a sert pulls. Its the engine's block aluminum material that is suspect and more important to consider when these blocks are repaired and THAT is where your extensive mechanical experience will come in handy not reinventing the hardware. Heat and corrosion has been known to deteriorate the block material and many blocks need to be discarded as putting a sert into deteriorated material is like putting it into butter and it will pull again. So analyzing the material as you drill is important.

Also consider that its NOT the timeserts that are expensive, its the installation kit, find or borrow a kit (that could be easy for a man with your mechanical history) and just buy the timeserts they are cheap (less than $35, if I recall), so find an installation kit on EBAY or a caddy forum.

To start from scratch, while it may be cheap is not prudent in my mind. There are a lot of questions that have been solved in the development process and while you may end up with a successful repair, why take the chance and not use a successful repair method for $35.

[KHE]

Isnt the Kit just 1" thick plate with a hardened bushing in it and some taps???? I saw the video on there site and the guy is using a hand dill. REALLY!!! A HAND DRILL!!!GIVE ME A BREAK!!! PLEASE!! When I do this Im planning on using a mag drill mounted to a steal plate thats bolted to the block. To center it you start your hole with a step drill. This will ensure your hole is center and the axis true to the original hole. If you want to throw your money away by all means go for it. They make those inserts with a CNC machine for penneys. I will not pay for these. Id rather make my own and Im sure others would like to know how as well.

Please just bare with me till I get to this point. Ill keep this part on this thread and let you senior members review what Im doing with this. I will conduct stress test on these inserts. Any one that would like to see any aditional testing done, let me know. Ill put my time into this if it will help others.

EDIT: I did see that the inserts come in 303 stainless or high carbon steel. Not sure about the high carbon steel but the stainless threaded rod can be aquired.

The kit consists of a plate - I think it is more like 9/16 or 1/2" (I'd need to check my Bigsert kit), a drill bushing, an alignment dowel, a special step drill with collar which puts the insert at the correct depth, a tap, an installation tool that sweges the insert against the block, Loctite 262, driver oil, and a case.

The tapered alignment dowel aligns the drill bushing with the existing hole. Once the fixture is bolted down to the block, the dowel is removed and the hole is drilled. I fully understand the step drill method in machining but it is not critical in this application. The holes in the heads are oversized enough to allow for minor shifts in the hole location. Some of the idiot dealerships free-hand the drilling process.... That's what happened to my car before I bought it. The inserts were installed too deep in the block and one-third of the thread engagement was lost. The inserts either broke or stripped when the "tech" torqued them down.

Yes it is pricey but it has been tested and proven. I have put close to 60,000 miles on my car that I repaired back in 2006.

[GearsNmotion]

Im not your avarage Joe here!

I was an ASE certified tech my certs a long expiered. I now build specialized machinery, been doing this for over ten years. I build very high precision CNC machinery now, for the areo space industruy. I have a very diverse skill set in machining and fabrication, along with a education in mechanical engeering. My company sends me all over the world because of my knowledge and abilities.

Making a bushing style insert is not rocket science. This is a must when dealing with aluminum this should have been done form the factory.

If there is something speacial about the Timesert that I am missing PLEASE ALABORATE. That fact that when installing one of these and using the tap to spead the bottom threads out. Tells me these are made of nothing more than mild steal or stainless. I deal with inserts like this all the time in my industry. Im not paying 500 dollars for something that cost 50 dollars to make and niether should any one else!! I would like to start a new thread on this and gather input on how these could be made in the average persons garage with out the use of a lathe. I have access to a lathe; however, not every one does. Therefore, I want to figure out an alternitve way to produce these that anyone can do with a simple drill press. It can be done and I will share my knowlegde of how. For less than half of what they want for those things I can point any one in the direction to purcahse the machines and tools that will be required to make these. Then you will have this stuff to make other stuff. A small band saw is one for starters.

The reason Im pulling the motor is because It has alot of miles on it. So If im going to put all this work into it I might as well rebuild it. Im getting to old to be leaning over the engine compartment to do this work. Its a lot easier to do on a stand and will yield more accurate work with out a sore back.

I don't know where you are coming from with this "you are not an average Joe" stuff, but we are not about egos here and your sudden defensiveness is unnecessary here. You said this in your first post:

What I was wondering is can I heally coil the threads in the block for the head bolts. I hear the head bolts pull the threads out of the block which causes the HG problems

The name Northstar and Heli-Coil in the same sentence to many here screams novice or inexperienced. So please don't all of a sudden get indignant on us, we are here to help you and you gave no impression that you were a mechanic at some point in your life.

While I am at it please don't make statements like this "this should have been done from the factory"

Given the same constraints that the engineers were given, you would undoubtedly have done the same thing the Northstar Powertrain design team did. We can all build BULLET PROOF engines Monday Morning quarterbacking the design engineers without knowing the constraints they were under with regard to cost and production.

You see, GM designed and validated the timesert and it has become an industry standard. I am sure they had an unlimited budget and an unlimited number of Northstar blocks to make mistakes on. I don't have their resources and I don't have a supply of blocks to practice or test on or to validate the repair, do you? I mean, once I do my repair, I don't have a dyno to run the engine hard for the purpose of validating the timeserts and finding weaknesses. If I do the repair using an untested and untried methodology and my first warning that something is wrong is that I am on the New Jersey Turnpike at 4 AM and my temp gage is pinned on H. Plus, I don't know if my bad back could withstand doing the job twice.

GM, oh they just start over.

Also consider that timesert has history of being a successful repair. I just spoke to a tech from timesert, they are rolled carbon steel, he stated that if they put the serts into a block of aluminum alloy that they break bolts before a sert pulls. Its the engine's block aluminum material that is suspect and more important to consider when these blocks are repaired and THAT is where your extensive mechanical experience will come in handy not reinventing the hardware. Heat and corrosion has been known to deteriorate the block material and many blocks need to be discarded as putting a sert into deteriorated material is like putting it into butter and it will pull again. So analyzing the material as you drill is important.

Also consider that its NOT the timeserts that are expensive, its the installation kit, find or borrow a kit (that could be easy for a man with your mechanical history) and just buy the timeserts they are cheap (less than $35, if I recall), so find an installation kit on EBAY or a caddy forum.

To start from scratch, while it may be cheap is not prudent in my mind. There are a lot of questions that have been solved in the development process and while you may end up with a successful repair, why take the chance and not use a successful repair method for $35.

Sorry didnt mean to get all egotistical on you guys. I just dont see the value in the kit and I am willing to make my own. Seems I got some resistance on this and would like help from those who have experience. As far as the heli coil thing goes Ive used those with much success, however not on an engine. If an aplication requires something with more integrity than Ive used kingserts. They are just about the same thing as a Timesert. Its been a long time sinse I worked on cars in fact the car I have now was not even built yet the last time I worked as a tech. Im not lacking experience just my my memory. lol

I did not know the inserts were that cheap! All the kits I have seen are 500 bucks. I have not seen just the inserts by them selfs any where. I will look a little harder. At that price making my own would not be worth my time.

My apaoligies again.

[adallak]

Sorry to hear you bought a car with known (to the previous owner) HG problem. The repair is not a cake walk because you have to take the engine out , fix it and put back. KHE managed to do the job without removing the engine, but that is KHE. We have a Hall of Fame for members who did HG repair themselves. You are about to enter that hall as well.

Despite I like very much people who do things they own way, this is probably one of those cases when you should follow the recommendations of those who have done the job. Chances to ruin the engine, or have it repaired again in a couple of thousand miles are very high.

I didn't repair the engine in the car - I removed it. I had planned on repairing it with the block in the car but it was such a PITA to remove the heads, I knew it would be a nightmare trying to re-assemble it. It took me an additional 20 to 30 minutes to pull the block after I had the heads off.

It is far easier to pull the engine and work on it vs. attempting the repair with the block in the car. It's much easier to get the timing marks aligned, etc.

I'd recommend keeping an eye out for a used Timesert kit and go that route vs. fabricating inserts.

Ooops... I remember someone did it in car and thought that someone must have been you! Sorry, KHE.

[adallak]

GNM,

If you have ability, means, experience to make the installation kit yourself for less $$$, that is great. Buying ready timeserts for $35 and doing the job yourself will be your best choice. Share your experience and feel free to ask questions.

[BodybyFisher]

Yes, as I noted, I just got off the phone with a tech from timesert, the timeserts are about $35, the installation kit is the expensive part, if you can find one, all it will cost is $35

You will need to purchase new head bolts also, don't use the old bolts

[GearsNmotion]

OK, now that Im on the same page and understand this a little better Ill get them ordered. Hopefully, Ill be doing this job in about a month. Lacking the funds right now.

Thanks all for your input and expertise!

[KHE]

Sorry didnt mean to get all egotistical on you guys. I just dont see the value in the kit and I am willing to make my own. Seems I got some resistance on this and would like help from those who have experience. As far as the heli coil thing goes Ive used those with much success, however not on an engine. If an aplication requires something with more integrity than Ive used kingserts. They are just about the same thing as a Timesert. Its been a long time sinse I worked on cars in fact the car I have now was not even built yet the last time I worked as a tech. Im not lacking experience just my my memory. lol

I did not know the inserts were that cheap! All the kits I have seen are 500 bucks. I have not seen just the inserts by them selfs any where. I will look a little harder. At that price making my own would not be worth my time.

My apaoligies again.

We'll help you through the process. It is critical that no shortcuts are taken with this engine in order to assure a correct, long lasting repair. It is a LOT of work to remove the engine - you don't want to have to do it twice. Also, you're going to have sore muscles you never knew you had - at least that's what I found.

[Ooops... I remember someone did it in car and thought that someone must have been you! Sorry, KHE.

No problem. I think Barry94 did his car with the block in the car.

[BodybyFisher]

The thought of sore muscles is the reason I didn't timesert mine, tilting the carriage doing my ISS speed sensor seriously taxed my 58 year old body, I'm not 18 anymore toto

[GearsNmotion]

Can this engine be pulled from the top??

I was planning on haveing a shop pull it out the bottom for me. They will not do a HG on a North Star. So I was going to have them pull it for me and take it home install the inserts and put a new rebuild kit in it. (re-ring it, new bearings, seals gaskets, etc)

From what I remember doing the trannys on the late 80's early 90's cars. If you have a lift its pretty easy to pull the motor from the bottom. But I have never done anything with a Cadilac. Lots of Ford Toruses though.

If it can come out the top I may pull the motor myself. I dont have a lift and with out one I dont think I want to mess with it if it has to come out the bottom.

The sore muscles comes with tapping the 20 large holes Im assuming?

[BodybyFisher]

It can be taken from the top but as KHE will confirm its best to drop the carriage there are a lot of fasteners that are difficult to get at if you take it from the top.

Doing the carriage in the ground and getting up and down and working on your back creates sore muscles

[GearsNmotion]

Yup, Im thinking, take it to the shop and have it pulled.

Thanks.

[KHE]

The thought of sore muscles is the reason I didn't timesert mine, tilting the carriage doing my ISS speed sensor seriously taxed my 58 year old body, I'm not 18 anymore toto

I treated my sore muscles with a sufficient volume of gin & tonics or bourbon so it really wasn't that bad...

Can this engine be pulled from the top??

I was planning on haveing a shop pull it out the bottom for me. They will not do a HG on a North Star. So I was going to have them pull it for me and take it home install the inserts and put a new rebuild kit in it. (re-ring it, new bearings, seals gaskets, etc)

From what I remember doing the trannys on the late 80's early 90's cars. If you have a lift its pretty easy to pull the motor from the bottom. But I have never done anything with a Cadilac. Lots of Ford Toruses though.

If it can come out the top I may pull the motor myself. I dont have a lift and with out one I dont think I want to mess with it if it has to come out the bottom.

The sore muscles comes with tapping the 20 large holes Im assuming?

Yes - the engine can be pulled from the top - that is the alternate method in the shop manual. Use the factory rings, use new rod bolts, and you will need to have the cylinders honed. There is a specific hone pattern that must be used. Once the rod cap bolts are removed, the rod bearings must be replaced. There is so much crush on the rod bearings that they MUST be replaced when the rod caps are removed or they will spin.

Honestly, if the engine is not using more than a quart of oil every 1000 miles, I would not bother with rings, or bearings. There won't even be a ridge at the top of the cylinders when the heads are removed. The valve guide seals are viton and good for several engine lifetimes.

I would replace the oil manifold plate that is between the oil pan and the lower block and reseal the case halves and oil pan. Use the GM sealant as there is NO substitute in the aftermarket. You do not need to replace the main bearings when re-sealing the crankcase halves.

The sore muscles came from laying on a creeper under the car reaching up to access some of the fasteners. The drilling, tapping, etc. was easy with the block mounted on an engine stand.

An engine hoist can be used to lift the body off the powertrain - a lift is not required. If you remove the engine from the top, you will need an engine load leveler - it makes the job much easier.

It can be taken from the top but as KHE will confirm its best to drop the carriage there are a lot of fasteners that are difficult to get at if you take it from the top.

Doing the carriage in the ground and getting up and down and working on your back creates sore muscles

I pulled the engine from the top on my car. There is a brace that runs from the block up between two of the pipes on the rear exhaust manifold and bolts to the head. It was a royal SOB to get the bolt at the head started. I would up lowering the cradle to gain room and it started.

If the entire cradle is dropped, this bolt would not be an issue. If I were doing another one and this bolt gave me trouble, I'd immediately lower the cradle vs. messing around with it for 2-3 hours...

Lowering the entire powertrain is the preferred method per the service manual but I have not tried that method. Maybe on the next one.

[Ranger]

Honestly, if the engine is not using more than a quart of oil every 1000 miles, I would not bother with rings, or bearings. There won't even be a ridge at the top of the cylinders when the heads are removed.

Good advice from KHE. Here is a picture of a 130K Northstar. Note the factory crosshatch hone pattern still in the cylinder walls.

[GearsNmotion]

Honestly, if the engine is not using more than a quart of oil every 1000 miles, I would not bother with rings, or bearings. There won't even be a ridge at the top of the cylinders when the heads are removed.

Good advice from KHE. Here is a picture of a 130K Northstar. Note the factory crosshatch hone pattern still in the cylinder walls.

Well that is what Im hoping for. From what I have seen pulling newer high milage engines apart. I usually see very little ware if any.

It is using oil axcesivly, about 1 and 1/2 quarts every other tank of gas. Also it rattled when I started it up last. This was after it sat for a week. I hit the key and it sounded just like a rod then went a away. Also it blew a bunch of black smoke out.

Since this motor has over 300,000 miles I figure it cant hurt to put a rebuild kit in it. I figure since its out why not.

I did get her home last weekend. I got a car dolly from uhaul and rented a Yukon. I left North Carolina Friday morn, drove straight home to MI. Got up the next day took the car dolly back to Uhaul and picked up a trans for my truck. Swapped it out in 8 hrs got up the next day and drove straight back down here. Yeah I have very little time to do things.

Once I get the truck out of the shop Ill start tearing into her.

[Ranger]

It is using oil axcesivly, about 1 and 1/2 quarts every other tank of gas. Also it rattled when I started it up last. This was after it sat for a week. I hit the key and it sounded just like a rod then went a away. Also it blew a bunch of black smoke out.

Sounds like cold carbon rap. Carbon build up on the piston causing the piston to hit the head, then it swings on the wrist pin and the skirt slaps the cylinder wall aka piston slap. If that's the case, the rings are also carboned up and not rotating in the lands (or expanding against the cylinder walls). It's caused by babying it. The cure (if it's not too late at 300K) is to give it some TLC. That is WOT aka drive it like you stole it. Plant your foot on the floor in 2nd gear and hold it there til 70-80 MPH. Let it shift under WOT. If you get it to 80 you should be near redline and just about ready to shift again. Get your foot out of it and let it back down to whatever traffic will allow. You would probably have seen a cloud of carbon behind you. If so, do it again. Beat on it hard. Don't worry, you won't hurt it. May cure your cold carbon rap and oil consumption. Consider it monthly maintenance.

[GearsNmotion]

I have to agree with this car being babied. For a car with 300,000 miles on it. This car is still in great shape!!! There is a rust spot on the rear left door. I was going to try and fix it and shoot a new coat of paint on just that door. The interior is also in pretty good shape as well. Seats are good and every thing in the car still works. So I still think this car is worth fixing. If I can get the motor fixed Ill put on another 300,000 miles.