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This is after-the-fact-, but I thought I'd ask for opinions from the more knowledgeable members on the Forum. My 2000 Deville, under an after-market extended warranty, developed a minor oil leak. Warranty was about to expire, car was in great shape an we decided it best to have the leak repaired under the warranty. After dealer re-installed the engine, they could still not stop the leak. The mechanic told me this was not uncommon with these Northstar engines! Warranty Co. said this was a manufactures defect, known throughout the industry, and would not cover the repair. Rather than junk the car, I opted for a new engine at a cost to me of $5K. GM and Cadillac representatives determined car was too old to expect any help from them to cover the cost of the new engine. I later learned that this problem was well known and most mechanics advise to leave this oil leak alone unless it's a major leak; mine was minor! My question: Should the dealership have informed me of the possibility that the leak could not be repaired. Seems to me, if the problem was that common, GM/Cadillac should have shared some of the responsibility, and ethically, should have informed me of this before I agreed to the repair.

Thanks for any comments submitted.

Steve M.

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You have stated simply OIL SEAL, are you talking about the REAR MAIN SEAL or the CASE HALF SEAL

There is a re-designed rear seal.

I have been here over 10 years and we have NEVER heard or been told that this was a manufacturers defect on ANY SEAL. You should have stopped here BEFORE deciding to replace the engine for 5K. Now is way too late.

If the case half seal was replaced and its still leaking, the job was done wrong

In addition if the rear main seal was replaced and its still leaking, the job was done wrong

I don't care what mechanics say about the NORTHSTAR and I ESPECIALLY dont care what the WARRANTY company has to say about it, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO SAY to avoid a warranty claim???

We have seen case half leaks in aging engines, but we have also seen the multi-billion dollar space shuttle grounded for seal leaks

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

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Steve sent this email to Bruce and Bruce forwarded it to me. I am pretty sure that I can get emails directly, so I don't know why this went to Bruce first. I also dont know why Steve did not reply directly here so that we all could see this.

There are so many things that are wrong with this paragraph that I don't know where to begin. I will reply to my own message and attempt to reply

Please forward my Replyfor BodybyFisher re. My post on 2000 DeVille oil leak.

April, 2010: Dealerfound need to reseal; the lower crank case seals leaking and upperhalf of motor. Dealer informed me that they needed to tap newthreads and install "time serts", (helicoil) whenre-installing engine in order to prevent leak after repair. Dealer explained this was due to 'softness' of engine, and old bolts would nothold. They referred to this as a "enhanced aluminum engine threadrepair process. Engine continued to leak after this work was done.This is when the extended warranty company determined this was amanufacturer defect, and the dealer told me my only option was to install anew, or rebuilt engine.

My car was at thedealership, my engine was on the floor, and the dealer informed me that theleak could not be repaired. They told me I need to have the car towed toa salvage yard or install a new or rebuilt engine. And the extendedwarranty company refused to pay. My decision at that time wasto install the new engine.

After further extensiveresearch, I learned of of the frequency of this type of oil leak in theNorthstar engines, and I did not feel the warranty company was beingunreasonable. However, I do feel that the dealership had an obligation toforewarn me that the repair they did, drilling new holes and installing timeserts, may not resolve the problem and the engine might still continue to leakafter their attempted repair.

Thanks again for yourresponse, and I hope this clarifies the problem I had?

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Steve sent this email to Bruce and Bruce forwarded it to me. I am pretty sure that I can get emails directly, so I don't know why this went to Bruce first. I also dont know why Steve did not reply directly here so that we all could see this.

There are so many things that are wrong with this paragraph that I don't know where to begin. I will reply to my own message and attempt to reply

Please forward my Replyfor BodybyFisher re. My post on 2000 DeVille oil leak.

April, 2010: Dealerfound need to reseal; the lower crank case seals leaking and upperhalf of motor. Dealer informed me that they needed to tap newthreads and install "time serts", (helicoil) whenre-installing engine in order to prevent leak after repair. Dealer explained this was due to 'softness' of engine, and old bolts would nothold. They referred to this as a "enhanced aluminum engine threadrepair process. Engine continued to leak after this work was done.This is when the extended warranty company determined this was amanufacturer defect, and the dealer told me my only option was to install anew, or rebuilt engine.

My car was at thedealership, my engine was on the floor, and the dealer informed me that theleak could not be repaired. They told me I need to have the car towed toa salvage yard or install a new or rebuilt engine. And the extendedwarranty company refused to pay. My decision at that time wasto install the new engine.

After further extensiveresearch, I learned of of the frequency of this type of oil leak in theNorthstar engines, and I did not feel the warranty company was beingunreasonable. However, I do feel that the dealership had an obligation toforewarn me that the repair they did, drilling new holes and installing timeserts, may not resolve the problem and the engine might still continue to leakafter their attempted repair.

Thanks again for yourresponse, and I hope this clarifies the problem I had?

"April, 2010: Dealerfound need to reseal; the lower crank case seals leaking and upperhalf of motor".

This statement is confusing and does NOT make sense. Your discussion to THIS point has focused on an OIL leak, nothing else correct? Your statement "LOWER CRANKCASE SEALS" is consistent with an OIL LEAK and it implies to me that you needed a CASE HALF SEAL and possibly the OIL MANIFOLD SEALS AND OIL PAN SEAL. Those seals will leak OIL.

Then you go on to say "AND THE UPPER HALF OF THE MOTOR". That statement is ambiguous and means absolutely NOTHING to me, the UPPER half of the MOTOR other than the CAM COVER seals does NOT leak oil. Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH you go on to discuss TIMESERTS. Let me be clear, the CASE HALF SEAL/PAN/OIL MANIFOLD SEAL job DOES NOT require the engine to be TIMESERTED.

"Dealer informed me that they needed to tap newthreads and install "time serts", (helicoil) whenre-installing engine in order to prevent leak after repair. Dealer explained this was due to 'softness' of engine, and old bolts would nothold. They referred to this as a "enhanced aluminum engine threadrepair process. Engine continued to leak after this work was done."

This is where it gets really confusing. As I said, when you reseal the engine for OIL the BOTTOM half of the engine is resealed (case half seals, oil manifold seals, oil pan seal and rear crankshaft seal). To do that job the engine does NOT have to be removed and ALL work is done from the BOTTOM.

Time serts are NOT helicoils, keep that clear. While they serve a similar function, their design is grossly different, a helicoil could never withstand the torque a head bolt requires. Timeserts are the GM sanctioned repair when the cylinder heads are removed. But timeserting is NOT normally required when the case half seals are done.

Did you also have a blown head gasket at the time this work was done? Was the engine also overheating? You are ONLY talking about and OIL leak NOT a coolant leak or overheating. So this discussion of timeserting is disjointed.

THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH ABOUT SOFTNESS IS ONLY RELATED TO THE HEAD BOLT HOLES WHERE COOLANT INTRUSION AND HEAT DEGRADE THE ALUMINUM MATERIAL RENDERING THE BLOCK A HIGH RISK FOR TIMESERTING BUT ITS RELATED TO THE HEAD BOLT HOLES AND THE HEAD BOLT HOLES ARE NOT TOUCHED TO FIX AN OIL LEAK.

As far as the statement of SOFTNESS, this softness of the HEAD BOLT HOLES happens from extreme heat and overheating especially on the rear bank near the firewall where cooling air flow is limited. The aluminum material degrades from coolant intrusion and heat softens the material and it is possible that even with timeserting the material that the timesert grabs on to after drilling and tapping is still soft. There are blocks that are so far gone that timeserting the head bolt holes is not recommended because the material is too soft and blocks are rejected for timeserting. That can ONLY be determined by the tech when the block is timeserted by analyzing the material as he drills out and taps the bolt holes. BAD aluminum material will be powdery and disty an not aluminum filings. There is no way to know before this point if the block is salvagable. Screwing timeserts into a powdery/dusty aluminum block will probably result in a failure as the degraded material is not capable of withstanding the torque load, and as I was told, it will be like the timesert pulls out of butter. SOMETIMES a TECH can use big serts to solve that problem as MORE material must be remove to use the big sert and MAYBE he will be able remove the powdery aluminum material and get to the GOOD alumunum. Blocks that have had bad head gaskets and have been running hot for a long time are more succeptible to aluminum alloy damage. BUT, the HEAD BOLT HOLES have NOTHING to do with an OIL LEAK, they are ONLY involved with COOLANT LEAKS and OVERHEATING. So two questions come to mind, why was the engine removed and 2) what holes required timeserting to so the case half lower end seal up.

When my head gasket blew, I had MANY discussions with the guys from TIMESERT and many rebuilders and you would be surprised how many NORTHSTAR blocks are REJECTED for HEAD BOLT HOLE timeserting because the aluminum material has degraded to the point that timeserting could fail. That is something that a REBUILDER does NOT want to happen as it becomes VERY expensive for them to send a second engine, etc

The bottom line is that the TECH who does the head gasket job MUST MUST MUST determine the integrity of the aluminum material BEFORE he timeserts the BLOCK's head bolt holes and if the material is NOT good, he must NOT timesert the block. The problem is that at the dealer TIME IS MONEY, he has the engine apart and he is STUCK at that point and he is on the CLOCK. If he were to reject the block for timeserting he IMMEDIATELY has a problem that he CAN NOT resolve as he can not easily or inexpensively acquire a block to solve the problem. So he goes ahead and he timeserts the block. BUT AGAIN, in YOUR case WHAT was TIMESERTED and WHY?

The only problem here is WHY DID HE TIMESERT YOUR BLOCK?, to do the case half seal he ONLY needed to work from the bottom and typically the main bolt holes are fine, you need to clarify that point. Furthermore what was leaking, because the main bearing bolts rarely go bad requiring timeserting and a reseal normally fixes the leak.

"This is when the extended warranty company determined this was amanufacturer defect, and the dealer told me my only option was to install anew, or rebuilt engine."

Please explain, the extended warranty company was paying for you to have the OIL LEAK fixed? GM stood by while the extended warranty company said this was a MANUFACTURER DEFECT on an 11 year old car? Explain clearly, are you saying that the extended warranty company refused to pay for the work that was done that failed? Who was the extended warranty company did you get them from GM/CADILLAC? AGAIN, what was timeserted and why? Again what was wrong with the engine an OIL leak or a blown head gasket? What were the symptoms an oil leak or overheating?

"My car was at thedealership, my engine was on the floor, and the dealer informed me that theleak could not be repaired. They told me I need to have the car towed toa salvage yard or install a new or rebuilt engine. And the extendedwarranty company refused to pay. My decision at that time wasto install the new engine. "

Confusing, did they fix the engine, reinstall it and then it leaked? Then they took it out again put it on the floor and said the leak could NOT be repaired? What leak, the OIL leak? Where was it leaking from and how bad was it leaking? I have NEVER seen an OIL leak that could not be repaired. It seems to me that something is missing here and that you also had a blown head gasket and THAT could not be repaired, could that be? If this was an OIL leak timeserting is NOT typically required so what was timeserted? You are missing information here. What did the warranty company refuse to pay for?, the initial repair? or the replacement engine?, how did the dealer get paid for the first job?

"After further extensive research, I learned of of the frequency of this type of oil leak in the Northstar engines, and I did not feel the warranty company was being unreasonable.

First off you are talking about an 11 year old car here and I didnt see how much mileage you had, but its 11 years old. I am sure the car looked GREAT but it was 11 years old. Your statement regarding the frequency of this type of oil leak is VAGUE. While the Northstar can tend ot leak at the case half as the mileage gets up there and the engine ages, many times its a nuisence leak and you can live with it. In all of my time with the Northstar I have NEVER seen a Northstar leak after it was resealed. Again, you need to clarify WHAT was timeserted. Did some of the MAIN BEARING bolts need to be timeserted? That is RARE if it were the case, but an important question to answer. What was timeserted, THAT needs to be deterined and WHAT was leaking AFTER the reseal and WHY was the engine removed to do a bottom end reseal?, that is UNNECESSARY!

Could it be that the head bolt timesert FAILED when the heads were retorqued?, I could see that happening and the dealer knowing that immediately, but again, the heads DO NOT need to come off to do a oil leak reseal.

This was a WIN WIN for the dealer and the warranty company, the warranty company probably paid the dealer for the first job and the dealer got you for the new engine. So in affect the dealer in this instance WON twice AT THE EXPENSE OF GM's AND THE NORTHSTARS REPUTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was the engine ever reinstalled after the oil leak fix or did they determine with the ENGINE OUT that the OIL leak could not be fixed. Please clear up the timing here. Did the dealer "fix" the oil leak, the warranty company pay for it, you take it home and it still leaked? Could there be collusion between the warranty company and the dealer?, again at the NORTHSTARS and GMs expense..

AGAIN, I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN OIL LEAK NOT BE ABLE TO BE FIXED, some of us have even fixed the oil leak from the OUTSIDE of the block.

"However, I do feel that the dealership had an obligation to forewarn me that the repair they did, drilling new holes and installing timeserts, may not resolve the problem and the engine might still continue to leakafter their attempted repair."

At this point it is UNKNOWN what the dealer actually did, it is unknown what bolts the dealer timeserted, it is unknown if they removed the heads and why if it was for a RESEAL, it is unknown why the engine was removed to do a bottom end case half leak, and it is unknown why they could not reseal the engine for oil, all of this is very confusing something does not jive or you dont have all of the information.

If you are missing something here and this relates to the HEAD GASKET or head bolts it is understandable and MAYBE the dealer up front should have warned you that it is POSSIBLE that the BLOCK may not be able to be timeserted. If I were GM, I would instruct the dealers to inform the customer that SOME blocks may not be able to be repaired but we wont know that until we get in there. Any powdery material at all and the block needs to be rejected and the owner then needs to make a decision. It woiuld be nice if GM could manufacture new upper block halfs for this purpose, anytime the engine is disassembled, the upper half of the block is replaced.

But again, the BLOCK does NOT typically need to be timeserted to do a case half seal nor does the engine need to be removed and placed on the FLOOR as you noted, the main bearing bolts do NOT typically need timeserting as coolant does NOT deteriorate them and the threads are NOT overheated like the head bolts, so what did they timesert? I get the feeling you are missing information here as timeserting is NOT typically required for case half seal repairs and oil reseals.

Something is missing here. If you have a copy of your receipt or any info, please scan it and post it here

I am sorry for your experience, its unfortunate and maddening.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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You know I really dont like to rag on anyone but some of these dealers are outright stealers. Take a small oil leak and turn it into a large cash flow. This problem should not have got this far the dealer should have contacted the warranty co. before starting the job and then truthfully telling the customer his options, cost and the reason to do or not to do the job. I have to have a very strong reason for going to a dealer, there would not be a dealer in business today if they had to depend on guys like me. When I purchase a new car I like to buy in my area just for the local economy, but one of these days I just might by from a online broker. The warranty company is still responsible for all or part of the job. The dealer should also cover some of the cost. They our like a ins co making the customer work to get his claim honored except they are working together. Mike

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As with anything, there are good dealers and there are bad dealers.

We don't know all of the details here yet and it is possible that Steve doesn't even have all the details, so its possible that more details will help our understanding of this situation, as it stands its not clear

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I'm assuming all is OK with the new engine correct?

Why the dealer timeserted the heads (or even tore into the upper part of the engine for this repair) is confusing unless they removed the engine to fix the oil leak and decided to Timesert it "just in case".

The front and rear main seals need to be replaced as well as the oil manifold plate. There is a service bulletin on using special GM sealant for the process. There is NO substitute for this product. The new design cartridge rear main seal is far superior over the old lip seal. Once the engine is re-sealed, it won't leak. The dealer botched the repair and fed you a line of BS in order to get you to pay for the new engine, covering up their mistake.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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Thank you, one and all for the responses to my Post re. the oil leak in my 2000 DeVille. Most of the responses were informative, although I found one lengthy response that I interpreted as quite condescending. Not all of us out here are as knowledgable about auto repairs as that responder represented himself, and we, unfortunately, are at the mercy of unscruulous dealerships and independant mechanics. However, I am surprised to hear from so many other contacts that have experienced this same oil leak problem in the DeVilles. It does appear that the dealer took advantage of my lack of knowledge; too late now for any recourse, except that I will no longer be using the services of that dealership. Obviously, mine was not an isolated incident. Thanks again to all.

Steve M.

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You call it condescending, I call my response appropriate given how totally incomplete and inaccurate your post was.

I did not want to say it, but you brought it up, it was obvious that you are not mechanically inclined at all as your description was of what was wrong was confused.

I found it very interesting that you FOUND your way here AFTER what YOU perceive to be a bad experience with the dealer. We are unable to determine if you had a bad experience with the dealer as the information you provided was disjointed and had errors of co-mission in it. It was obvious that you did NOT know what was wrong with your car, AND YET, you are dumping on the dealer. THAT IS WHAT you saw in my so called condescending response.

I asked you to post the INVOICE (since you are incapable of actually relaying what was done or what was wrong given your disjointed post) and WE would determine what was done. As I said NO DEALER worth their salt would TIMESERT a block, IF they were doing a bottom end reseal.

You come here, an ENTHUSIASTS site, with less than ten posts, dumping on the dealer and looking for support and remedy, giving us a disjointed description of what was wrong and what was done and expect a response without all the facts?

Now this is condescending > you see me?, if I am not knowledgable about something, say like my Hayward gas pool heater that malfunctioned this week. I go to the net and I get educated BEFORE I call for service and spend big bucks getting it fixed. If I call for service FIRST and find out they charged me $500 for showing up and replacing a $10 part that they charged me $250 for, that if I picked up an ohm meter and tested it, it would have been obvious. Would it be right for me to complain at that point because I did not take the initiative to get educated and attempt to resolve the issue myself BEFORE calling them?

Let me tell you what you SHOULD have done, yoiu should have come here BEFORE you had the work done to acquire the knowledge you needed you know "forwarded is fore-armed" and educated yourself, and guess what, we would have told you, yes, these EXCELLENT engines can be leakers, BUT if its minor, put a plastic dip pan in your garage, try high mileage oil as it has seal conditioners in it and LIVE with it. But you come here AFTER your so called bad experience to complain and look for support and whether GM was wrong?, see this statement by you that ruffled my enthusiast feathers,

Cadillac representatives determined car was too old to expect any help from them to cover the cost of the new engine. I later learned that this problem was well known (if you came here we could have confirmed that it was MINOR let it alone) and most mechanics advise to leave this oil leak alone unless it's a major leak; mine was minor! My question: Should the dealership have informed me of the possibility that the leak could not be repaired. Seems to me, if the problem was that common, GM/Cadillac should have shared some of the responsibility, and ethically, should have informed me of this before I agreed to the repair.

Let me ask you something else, is it possible that your warranty was running out and you thought you were going to GET EVERYTHING FIXED even that MINOR leak before it did run out?, and GET OVER on the warranty company? If that is the case you just spent $5000 learning about "having good ethics" youself didnt you? What instituted this repair

Until you provide full details here the dealer is innocent as far as I am concerned. I asked you to scan the bill and provide details not criticize my attitude. Timeserting and dropping the carriage to fix and OIL LEAK is illogical. I asked a LOT of very good questions and what you saw was an incredulous attitude not a condescenting one toward someone who was condemning a dealer without providing accurate details.

Love to help you but you need to accurately communicate the details

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Please answer these questions

What stimulated the car being put into the dealer for a minor oil leak?

What other symptoms did you have?

Besides the minor oil leak, what other work was done?

Was the car in for bad head gaskets or overheating?

Why was the engine out and on the floor for an oil leak?

What was timeserted exactly?

Was the block timeserted due to a pulled head bolt or breeched head gasket causing overheating?

What did the warranty pay for and not pay for?

What leak was the dealer unable to replace?

Do you have something in writing showing what was done and the diagnosis from the dealer?

If you do have something, scan it, create a PDF or JPG and post it or send it to me in an email, Ill give my address to you

If something is not clear , I would be glad to call the dealer for a clarification on your behalf and speak to the service manager, I have done that before.

I think the details of what happened here are wrong. Maybe they found a cracked block, maybe a timesert pulled when it was re-torqued due to deteriorated sandy alumunum due to overheating and coolant intrusion. If that happened, it can be obvious and the dealer MAY have said, this engine is going to overheat again "we are unable to repair it" due to deteriorated 'soft' alumunum due to heat and coolant intrusion, and that may be what you are seeing. In that case the dealer did you a favor and didnt fix the engine knowing it would be back in his lap shortly and he recommended a replacement engine. Given the age of your engine, that may be the case. The dealer would not have known that the aluminum material was deteriorated before he did the job. Timeserting is a proven repair method and many here have successfully timeserted their own engines.

One of the things in this world that is losing importance are THE FACTS. All you need to do is watch the twisted media we see lately. Hearsay, opinions or impressions mean nothing compared to the actual facts which is what everything should be based on when the outcome matters. All you need to do is do a google search with the right terms and your thread here will come up. You have made accusations, stated general mis-information and made implications here that are not supported by facts or description you have given. That can have negative implications to others, I have tried to dispel most of them, but lets get the facts straight so we can get to the bottom of what happened.

To this point you have not addressed any of my questions asked thoughout this thread

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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