sullivanjay Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 1995 Seville SLS. I have removed the housing and tried to remove the water pump with the appropriate Lisle tool. I'm trying to turn it clockwise with a 18" breaker bar. It won't budge and I'm not sure how hard I can push without doing damage. This car has 115K and is the first time it has had to be replaced. / J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxitsonlyagame Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Are you able to use an air impact? When I did mine not too long ago it was really stuck and my impact was given a run for it's money. Do not use the impact to install the new pump though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 The Lisle tool is known to slip because it is a cheaper stamped steel model, but if it holds a few short bursts from an impact gun will usually persuade it as Sevillian said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullivanjay Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Well I have graduated to air impact wrench after using breaker bar and pipe for leverage. 240 pound friend pushing on pipe while I kept it against the housing. Pipe length was restricted by the top of hood only. No go! Won't budge. I now have gone to an electric "Old Milwaukee" impact wrench which is much more powerful then air and it still will not budge. I sprayed the friction mounting flanges (?) with Kroil last night and it still won't move. I've been around long enough to believe it will not be coming out with out some damage. Heat? This sucks! The Lisle tool seems to be holding up OK. I'm starting to see metal in the housing from the old pump. Ranger what tool do you recommend? Something with more weight to it?Lisle has always served me well in the past. I'm not a backyard mechanic. Before getting into computers I was a wrench for 15 years. I've done more water pumps then I care to admit. First time I needed a special tool for removal. Any and all ideas would be nice. Thanks! / J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdgrinci Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 You mentioned it with a question mark in your last post. "Heat"? Have you tried the torch? Chuck '19 CT6, '04 Bravada........but still lusting for that '69 Z-28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Did I read it correct that you have the crossover (housing) off the engine? Are you trying to remove the water pump with the crossover removed? If you are, how are you holding the crossover?, a vice? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullivanjay Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 I learned the trade in a town that outlawed open flame in Gas Stations / Repair Shops. So I learned to do with out heat for the most part. That's why I asked. We did have Butane hand torch out back but did not use it much if ever. No I have not tried heat yet. I was thinking more like a heat gun from the back. It is aluminum to steel and I think the aluminum will expand quicker. Yes - No? I have been hitting it all day long between stuff today. It has not budged. / J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullivanjay Posted May 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Did I read it correct that you have the crossover (housing) off the engine? Are you trying to remove the water pump with the crossover removed? If you are, how are you holding the crossover?, a vice? I'm trying to remove the water pump from the water pump housing. It's still on the motor in the vehicle. / J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Keep in mind that it is important for the wrench to fit into the water pump in a specific location on the pump. Put the wrench on the new water pump and look at how it engages on the new pump. You may have the wrench engaging on the pump wrong. Once you see how it fits on the new pump figure out where its engaged and apply that to the old pump and remove it. We have heard of members having problems getting them off, but I have never had difficulty using an 18 inch breaker bar. Let us know how it turns out There is NO reason that this pump should NOT come out easily, it is only held by tabs, you have to have the pump wrench installed into the pump wrong. I have told this to other members and they easily removed it when they considered the engagement point Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Be certain you have NOT "unlocked" the water pump cartridge and you just did feel it happen. If the pump is the least bit loose, it is unlocked. Corrosion between the ferrous cartridge and the aluminum crossover can be a bear, but snapping on the pump with an 18" extension and/or an impact wrench usually produces results. I'd be carefull with heat or you might find yourself replacing crossover gaskets or even a complete crossover. Hang in there !! Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Good point Jim, maybe it is unlocked already Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 The better water pump sockets are machined (and much more expensive)vs the stamped steel Lisle one, but if yours is not slipping, then it's probably OK. It seems that the cars that came from the factory with green coolant are the ones that have the most trouble. Remember, as JimD eluded to, it only takes about 1/16 - 1/8 turn to loosen it. Maybe you are already there but expecting more movement. I'd be leery about using a blue tip wrench. Remember, there is a rubber O ring seal in back, not to mention the crossover gaskets and you DO NOT want to damage them as they are a PITA to replace as BBF can attest to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullivanjay Posted May 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 I'm not having any problem fitting the removal tool to the pump. I did check engagement with the new pump before I started this. Proof that i'm engaged properly is the fact that I can see easily into the housing and see the point of contact of the tool on the old pump.Shinny marks showing contact. I have resorted to wearing ear protection due to the noise the electric impact wrench is making. I have impacted it for 45 seconds at a time. I feel that if I keep this up it will eventually pop of kinda like a snowmobile clutch off a tapered shaft. I don't have time today to work on it but tomorrow I can spend some more time on it. I will heat it up with a hair dryer or heat shirk gun also. I can see the tabs on the old pump and they have not moved one bit. I'm not sure what you mean by unlocking? I know if I move it 1 mm out it will come. The only thing I can think of is that the pump was replaced before I bought the car at 75K and the pump was over torqued. I believe it is suppose to be torqued to 73 ft pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Here is an interesting thread from when I did mine in 2007, notice the problems that Ed Hall had removing his with a 4 foot pipe where he damaged his ratchet wrench. Its interesting that some of these pumps are ridiculous to get out where others pop right out. Its interesting that NSs with green have a more difficult time. This sort of reminds me of the hub bearings some pop right out where as others have to be hammered and heated out.... http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13341&st=0 Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 It's cam locked, not screwed in so I doubt it could be over torqued. I wonder if there could be some type of calcium build up due to hard water and the green coolant (just thinking out loud)? Have you tried reversing the impact and giving it a burst or two in the opposite direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 weird. I have done these before, the 93-95 is the tightest. 96-97 I still use a breaker bar but all I have is the lisle socket, which I will admit does slip compared to the machined socket, but regardless I have never used an impact socket, and would never use a torck inside the aluminum housing. It can weaken the cast and crack the housing and that is not a fun job. I did one one time and didnt feel it pop and tried to pop it and it was already released, I found out by trying to resecure it. GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullivanjay Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 First thanks to BBF, Ranger and Rockfangd for your suggestions and help. Experience trumps all in most professions. I did get the pump off yesterday and buttoned it back up. I did not have any cooling system flush on hand and will get some today. Had the conditioning tabs and green anti-freeze on hand but no cleaning flush. Anti-freeze was changed every two years since I have owned it. It has always been clean. No build up of crude that I could see inside housing at all. Bought it from a Stealer and it appeared to be serviced regularly. What finally loosened it up was heat. I used a Professional type heat gun and got the housingup to about 160 degrees from around 65 degrees. I don't feel good about open flame around a car and the heat gun allowed the casting to heat up gradually and somewhat evenly. Took about twenty minutes to heat up. This was best because of the locks all around the circumference of the housing I thought. It did not move easily but it did move. I could see this from the tab on the pump. Then it stopped moving again as it cooled. I had to reheat it again to get it to move and as you can see from the picture damage was done to the old water pump. Also note that the shield (?) welded to the vanes vibrated off! Also the Lisle tool was damaged a bit also. The tang that pushes the pump got straighten out or is how 90 degree's, I have to say the tool stood up well to the pounding it took. It did not slip because I was pushing straight into the housing. Would love to see the better version. What I believe happened is that either the pump was already replaced once or at assembly time at the factory the pump was over torqued quite a bit. I suspected this from the start and took a picture of how deep it was seated after opening it up. When I torqued it to 73 foot pounds the new pump did not sit as deep into the bosses as they had before. The new pump went in only about a third of the way as the old one. For those with experience check out the picture of the old pump and tell me ifit was set to deep. (over-torgued) This pump should not have been all that hard to take out and I'm searhing for a reason why. Thanks again. / J http://photobucket.com/waterpump Thanks again. / J PS: Had lots of problems with pictures. Would not let me attach or add a URL so I manually added link. I hope it worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 I wouldnt worry about the flush, typically all that is needed is a drain and refill and that comes from the guru who designed the NS Interesting that you used a heat gun, good thinking, I have one and it comes in handy all the time, just yesterday I was straightening out 1/2" landscape piping with it. The pump is steel (I think maybe its galvanized steel) and the housing is an aluminum alloy, so I guess its possible that given how tight it was galvanic corrosion was to fault, we have seen it happen at the plugs where they 'snap' and the head bolts that snap to release. Link the photo here from photo bucket as a photo. If you join as a supporting member the size of the photos you can upload here is increased greatly. Glad you finally got it off Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I have to say the tool stood up well to the pounding it took. It did not slip because I was pushing straight into the housing. Would love to see the better version. Here are some pic of one I made. It is almost identical to the Snap-On version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 excellent, Great thinking on the heat gun. I have to share a story of mine, not related to cadillac in any way but may help. I work as a diesel mechanic for a large bus company and I had a 2006 Ford E450 coach with the 6.0l Diesel. So anyway it hada bad crank sensor and I could not get the old one out. It had rust around the o ring(this is besides the fact of the one finger clearance) I broke the old one and even after cleaning the hole I could not get the new one in. I ended up breaking a new sensor. So I got a great idea. I got another new sensor, removed the o-ring, installed the sensor easily, ran the engine to warm it up, removed the sensor, installed the o-ring and voila it popped right in. To this day I have done 7 and it works every time.Always break the old one but the new goes right in. this brings me to 2 good points 1. a creative mind works wonders fr making things work with what you have 2. I almost think I change the water pumps whem the engines are warm, and therefore making it easier to remove. GM FAN FOREVER Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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