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Strange shake


sl33k3r

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I sincerely hope you can help me. I like to believe I am a competent home diagnostician and mechanic, but I am stumped.

'02 Deville, 2 NEW (Not rebuilt) CV shafts (3 actually - one new one was bad), new left outter tie-rod end, new brakes (all 4), three new strut/shock mounts, New rear wheel bearing, New sway bar link, new passenger front caliper, 4 new tires (Goodyear Integra - actually 10 but 6 have been replaced for being out-of-round!) and a 4-wheel alignment. OH! It has 306,000 miles.

I have great frustrations with this car now. Everything I have done has fixed or reduced the effects of an issue, but I am at a loss now. It has a shake while driving 90% of the time. 10% of the time it may not have a shake at all. I am saying shake as in a movement in an up and down or forward and back movement in-line with the rotational forces and not a shimmy, side-to-side or lateral movement as if there were tires with slipped belts. When it does shake while accelerating, cruising and decelerating, I feel the shake all over, but mostly feel it in my feet and upper body (my butt is apparently numb from the friction created by the frequent wallet removal). There is no play in the front wheel bearings nor are there any sounds front the front while in hard nor slight right or left turns. While in long sweeping turns I can also feel a lateral pulsating in the steering wheel while turning the wheel. If the wheel is not changing the rate of turn, the wheel has no lateral pulsation. I can also replicate the lateral pulsing by making quick right-left-right-left slalom-like movements while maintaining a single lane on the highway. When the car is shaking and I brake, the shake will more harsh. I feel no movement in the brake pedal. If the car is smooth and I brake, there is no shake and will come to a stop very smoothly.

I just removed the driver side transaxle to check checked the play of the output shaft. While removing the CV shaft, I made note of the condition the side of the transaxle. There has been leakage at the seal. The area is dark, but not wet. May I assume that since the area is not wet, the seal is doing it's job and the play is not excessive? The end-play (in-out) is .040" and vertical (up-down) play is .035". I have looked for what seems forever to find tolerances but cannot seem to find them. Can anybody help me with the tolerances? I do need to check the passenger side, but believe they are about the same as the driver side.

The car has been checked out by a local brake/front-end shop and they cannot tell me what is the issue. I have called the local Cadillac service shop and I was told to check the rear knuckle bushings. There are no knuckles in the rear...it is more like a lower control arm and from what I have determined is that the bushings in them are good.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

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This sounds exactly like a broken steel belt in your tire, you had this before you replaced your tires? I had a bad steel belt the the car bumped up and down.

That said, I would check your engine mounts and I would check the run out of each hub flange (where the lug nut studs are) with a dial indicator to see if you have any run out. I would also check the holes in the wheels to make sure that the holes are not worn out or enlarged leaving the lug nuts to bottome out and not tighten the wheel up.

I would also check to see that each lug nut is square with the hub flange, we have seen the lugs bent in the past. Are you using OEM wheels or aftermarket wheels?

Welcome aboard!

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One more thing, LOGAN had a problem on the passenger side output shaft bushing allowing the output shaft connected to the half shaft to run or turn in an elliptical fashion creating a vibration, Ill find the link to his thread, it was a big job to fix, and I think it was an 01 or 02, Mike

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Read these posts by LOGAN, you replaced your half shafts, were they OEM or aftermarket there was an issue, see this

http://caddyinfo.ipb...=1entry181629

Here is LOGAN'S thread regarding the bushing that was worn that caused the axle to run out, my gut is this is your problem, Mike

http://caddyinfo.ipb...h=1entry74141

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Both shafts are after-market but are of the "light" variety and ordered as such because it is not specified as a "heavy" suspension by my VIN#. The inner CV cup looks slightly different the one on the right in the image of the previous post.

I found no end-play in the hubs and the studs are square with the hub. The car has factory aluminum wheels and the condition of the holes is good.

The front motor mount is partially separated in the center. I could see a separation half-way around after removing the shroud and looking in front of the cross member which the mount bolts to. Also, I do not see a torque strut anywhere which bolts to the radiator support which is stated in a Haynes manual for this car. Can anyone tell me where the torque strut is located? Right side? Left side? Middle?

Anyhow, I disassembled the passenger side drive assembly. The seal was not leaking at all. The transmission output area is dry. I found the play to be quite disappointing, though. While the end-play is about .015", the up-down-side-side movement was found to be .072". The inner CV surface is smooth on both shafts. There are no surface scrapes, gouges or any other type of wear.

Must be that the clearances are not tight enough to keep the ride smooth. I should expect as much with 300k on the odometer. Is there any way to remove the part of the transmission without removing the whole transmission from the car for repair/replacement?

Thank you.

Edited by sl33k3r
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Your problem sounds like the same problem that Logan had, at the link I provides above. Maybe LOGAN will see this an chime in on this thread, if I dont see him, Ill send him a PM or you can direct Logan here yourself, search for him under members as Logan. He is very sharp and I am sure he will tell you if your clearances are excessive. Mike

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I am going to put my front wheels into the truck this morning so I can take them to the tire dealer to check for flaws and balance. Quite frankly, I am very disappointed with Goodyear Intergra tires. Who would think that out of 10 tires, 6 were bad. If I need to replace one or both of these...it just gets worse. It's not like I can say, "Take back these tires and give me my money back...I'm buying [some Other Name] tires."

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OK, one more bad tire. I see the portion of the tire that was out-of-round and do not believe it was bad enough to cause my shake, but my dealer replaced it anyway. Both tires were also out of balance by more than half an ounce each...after only 6-700 miles. I will be checking with a transmission specialist today to see if the play the transaxle output shaft play is out of tolerance.

I did check the rear tires when I replaced the rear wheel hub and they were good. I will have to re-check the rear tires at another time.

Keep you posted.

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I talked to the transmission guy and he said as long as the seals are not leaking, the play is fine. I ordered a new motor mount ($110) and since I have touched everything else in the front of the car, I had the front rotors turned. Now I just wait for my new motor mount and transmission seals (for $10 and it's all apart anyway...why not?) arrive. Kind'a sucks to be in the sticks.

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While I understand what your tranny guy is saying and while we have seen some leak at the seal on the passenger side (while going in reverse), I am not sure if Logan was leaking at that seal only vibration, so don't rule out the the play you see. I will direct Logan here for him to add his experience. I did see an improvement replacing the front mount, and you will also.

Here is my thread on replacing the front engine mount along with photos, you will notice the front mount cracked look through this thread, if you have any questions let me know

http://caddyinfo.ipb...=1entry133356

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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lol, posted pics after I already had fun playing with my motor mount on my 96.

The torque struts are between the radiator support and the engine. They are also often called dogbone motor mounts. black originally and sometimes cast aftermarket

top pic is left mount bottom is right

post-12985-13026183486_thumb.jpg

post-12985-130261839531_thumb.jpg

GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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No dogbones on my car at all. Only the four mounts on the bottom of the assembly front, rear and two sides. Thank you for the images, though, rockfangd.

BodybyFisher, my front mount is different than yours. A single piece that is seemingly impossible to get out of my car attached to the steel bracket. I have removed the bolts at the top, nuts at the bottom and the studs from the engine block. I tried jacking the motor up to remove the bracket and mount but cannot get the motor to raise enough to pull the lower mount bolt out of the frame. It would only raise 1 inch before raising the whole car from the jack stands. I came back in to see how others did it, but so far all I have found are those with the two-piece mount like in your post on the '96. Mine is a single piece like a mushroom on steroids. Even if I could get the motor up high enough, the A/C line will not allow me to move the mount assembly out of the car and it will not fit between the engine block and the cross member. I have even removed the oil pressure sending unit in hopes of being able to get above the bracket to remove the nut of the mount. I cannot even get a wrench on the nut let alone turn it. GRRRrrrr. Engineers should be required to work on cars before designing them.

I will search posts 'til I find how to remove the bracket and mount.

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See if the mount can come apart, my mount was HUGE, I had to disassemble it, by removing the top part from the bottom half that allowed it to come out easily. take a photo of your mount and post it here.

Do you have the pan supported with a floor jack?, use a block of wood to spread the weight, dont put too much pressure on the pan

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Oh, I just reread your post. You may need to detach the two side mounts to allow you to raise the engine enough to get that mount out

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I removed the driver side transmission mount from the car. Merely unbolting the mount and leaving it on the car would do nothing since the bracket bolted to the transmission is under the mount. The passenger side is the same, but I did not remove it. It is more difficult to remove than the driver side. The air cleaner was easily removable to allow access to the bolts for mount removal. Also, jacking the engine after removal of the driver side mount only netted me an additional 1 inch since the EGR valve hit the firewall and would not allow me to jack higher. I really do need to remove the EGR anyway to change the plugs, change the plug boots and replace the valve cover seal. Just didn't expect to be doing it so soon.

It has been a long time since I have been this frustrated while working on a car. Looking at the mounts, three of them look new. The remaining front one is the only original one. From what I am finding...for good reason. I have done enough for today. Good thing I have a second vehicle to drive to work and parts runs.

Thank you all for your input.

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Sorry to hear that you are having difficulty, keep an eye on your axles to see how much they are deflecting. Also look at the exhaust, there is an O2 Sensor in front of the CAT and one in the rear bank, make sure they are clear. DO NOT over stress, keep in mind that your steering shaft is connected... you are trying to tilt the engine backward. Watch for over stressing anything, I would disconnect the pass side mount also

Could someone look at the FSM for the recommended R&R on this? Something tells me that Logan discussed this mount

I do recall someone posting photos and a story on this type of mount, do a search and put quotes around the search term, it will return the exact phrase and helps to narrow down your search and eliminate inrelated threads, like this

"front engine mount"

"front mount"

"mushroom shaped"

"redesigned the mount"

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I figured it out! So simple once you have it done. Kind of. The key issue is the subframe, two tall jack stands and two jacks. If the engine won't go higher...take the subframe lower. This is not a complete step-by-step, but just to show how I was able to get enough clearance to get the front mount replaced.

I supported the vehicle body under the cross "beam" behind the foam urethane bumper support. With the motor jacked up and supported as high as it would go without damaging anything, I then removed anything attached to the subframe that would be damaged by the movement of the subframe. Then removed the bolts in the front of the subframe to allow me to prop the front of the subframe down away from the motor to allow me to get a wrench on top of the "mushroom" mount to remove it from the bracket. [Tip] my mount was not completely separated so leave the bottom nut tight on the mount to keep it from rotating. Best of luck to you if yours has completely separated. A full-size 19mm combination wrench should fit on the nut holding the bracket on. Access to the nut can be had from the passenger side with the box end curved toward the ground. The wrench should pass between wires and hoses in that area. That's how I tightened it anyway.

Possibly I can give a more detailed post at a later date. Tonight I am getting ready for starting my vacation in the morning and do not have the time. Sorry.

Edited by sl33k3r
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Glad to hear it, we would love to benefit from your experience, please post your procedure! Thanks in advance

Did the shake go away?, if I recall my odd shake went away when I replaced my front mount

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I haven't completed the repair as of yet. The Air breather, drive shafts, brakes, rotors and wheels need to be assembled yet. I do not have time prior to leaving for vacation. Believe me, I would prefer to finish the repair rather than pack clothes and make sure I have all of my sundries (I would prefer to buy new once I got to where I was going), but it makes more economic sense to not do what I prefer. It is taking a great deal of willpower, too! I have a two hour drive to the airport and I have to do it in the truck. While not an extremely rough ride, it's still not a Cadillac (even with the shake). The mileage is quite different as well...15-16 vs. 28-30 hwy.

I will finish the repair when I arrive back in a week.

Thank you for your advice.

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Enjoy your vacation! The Caddy will be there when you return

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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  • 2 weeks later...

I returned from vacation safely Saturday evening. Sunday morning I tackled the re-assembly of the front end and went for a test drive. I am happy to say that my steady shake, as well as the shake when braking is gone! It is really nice to have a comfortable car again. The car still has the weird sensation in the steering wheel as I turn and a slight growl can be heard and a slight vibration can be felt now above 30 mph. Maybe the steering wheel lateral movement I am feeling is the power steering (proportion) valve opening and closing at a non-standard rate? For the growl and vibration, I am thinking wheel bearing(s). Maybe the breaking problem was caused by the bad wheel bearing(s)? There was no play at all when I checked them nor when the garage checked them.

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If you are feeling something on turning, take a look at the strut mounts, they can become creaky. Have someone slowly turn the steering wheel back and forth while you CAREFULLY reach in and hold the spring surrounding each strut and feel for vibration or skippiness or grinding. Then feel each tie rod for any issues, then put your hand on the ball joint

BUT STAY CLEAR OF MOVING PARTS USE THE PARKING BRAKE AND CHOCK THE WHEELS AND TRUST THE PERSON BEHIND THE WHEEL

I think I found a pic of your engine mount, see attached photo

post-2998-130390935484_thumb.gif

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I returned from vacation safely Saturday evening. Sunday morning I tackled the re-assembly of the front end and went for a test drive. I am happy to say that my steady shake, as well as the shake when braking is gone! It is really nice to have a comfortable car again. The car still has the weird sensation in the steering wheel as I turn and a slight growl can be heard and a slight vibration can be felt now above 30 mph. Maybe the steering wheel lateral movement I am feeling is the power steering (proportion) valve opening and closing at a non-standard rate? For the growl and vibration, I am thinking wheel bearing(s). Maybe the breaking problem was caused by the bad wheel bearing(s)? There was no play at all when I checked them nor when the garage checked them.

Wheel bearings noise sounds like you are being followed by a propellar airplane. jack up the car & grab the wheel at 12 & 6, and push in & out. if you feel movement and/or hear a tick as you wiggle, it's probably the hub. compare it to the other side.

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