epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Finally found some time to work on the caddy a little. I adjusted the mininum idle, adjusted the Throttle Position Sensor, adjusted the max. ISC extension, did the idle relearn, and it idles perfect now...625 RPM. No sail-on and it starts up and settles down fast like it should. Thanks Mike and everyone else for the help!!! Love this board!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 how long does it take to go down to 625 RPM at cold start? The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Hey Mike, that springy nut runner didn't work...still couldn't get to the min. idle screw going that route. Had to take off the ISC to get to it. The ISC was partially blocking the hole on the ISC mount that allows access to the idle screw, and that hole was too small for a socket to fit through anyhow. I need to find a set of right angled handled torx bits...would of come handy loosening the ISC and especially the TPS screws...those were a royal pain in the ars without that tool. The FSM called for that right angled torx tool to loosen the TPS. Should of enlarged that hole on the ISC mount too while I had it off, for next time. Oh well, hopefully there won't be a next time . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 how long does it take to go down to 625 RPM at cold start? A second or two. Haven't done a cold, cold start yet. I'll do one here later tonight when it cools off and time it and let you know. It's so much better now than before. Before, it was starting at a real high idle (around 1500), then slowly (4-5 sec. later) it would drop down to around 700-750 or so. It sounded like it was really hard on the motor to rev that high while cold...especially with winter coming on. Soooo glad it's fixed. Is your idle giving you any trouble? Kind of feel like an expert now...let me know if you need any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 A second or two. Haven't done a cold, cold start yet. I'll do one here later tonight when it cools off and time it and let you know. It's so much better now than before. Before, it was starting at a real high idle (around 1500), then slowly (4-5 sec. later) it would drop down to around 700-750 or so. It sounded like it was really hard on the motor to rev that high while cold...especially with winter coming on. Soooo glad it's fixed. Is your idle giving you any trouble? Kind of feel like an expert now...let me know if you need any help. yeah... it takes a few minutes to go to 650 from 1500... I know the TPS reading was 2.5 intead of +/- 0.5 degrees but did not hav e the time to play with TPS screw. Did the correct TPS set make whole difference or something else did? The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Yeah, a few minutes is way too long. Not sure what fixed it...I imagine it was the combination of the high mininum idle and the TPS being off. After cleaning my TB thoroughly, with the ISC fully retracted, I adjusted my min. idle down from 675 to 525, then my TPS was at around -1.0 with the ISC retyracted & unplugged. So I adjusted it down to -.2, could not get it to exactly 0. I then adjusted the ISC max extension to 13.4 Did the idle learn procedure and all was well. I recommend doing it by the book, step by step, to get it right. I imagine if just one adjustment is off, your idle will not be right. 2 weeks ago, After putting in the new ISC, I adjusted everything except the min. idle, and it did not idle right. tonight, once I adjusted my min. idle, my TPS was then off. What I'm going to have to keep an eye on is it seems my throttle blade or throttle lever was hanging up slightly at times...seemed a little sticky at times, not all the time though, my TB would catch my blades or my throttle lever was sticking in the TB. I could push down on the throttle lever to close the blades in the TB further and the throttle lever down to min. idle screw. I scrubbed everything really well twice with a toothbrush using half a can of CRC air intake cleaner. After I was done, everything seemed ok. I can send you all the procedures if you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Yeah, a few minutes is way too long. Not sure what fixed it...I imagine it was the combination of the high mininum idle and the TPS being off. After cleaning my TB thoroughly, with the ISC fully retracted, I adjusted my min. idle down from 675 to 525, then my TPS was at around -1.0 with the ISC retyracted & unplugged. So I adjusted it down to -.2, could not get it to exactly 0. I then adjusted the ISC max extension to 13.4 Did the idle learn procedure and all was well. I recommend doing it by the book, step by step, to get it right. I imagine if just one adjustment is off, your idle will not be right. 2 weeks ago, After putting in the new ISC, I adjusted everything except the min. idle, and it did not idle right. tonight, once I adjusted my min. idle, my TPS was then off. What I'm going to have to keep an eye on is it seems my throttle blade or throttle lever was hanging up slightly at times...seemed a little sticky at times, not all the time though, my TB would catch my blades or my throttle lever was sticking in the TB. I could push down on the throttle lever to close the blades in the TB further and the throttle lever down to min. idle screw. I scrubbed everything really well twice with a toothbrush using half a can of CRC air intake cleaner. After I was done, everything seemed ok. I can send you all the procedures if you need them. thanks epricedright for the info. I have the manual and the only parameter which was slightly off was the TPS 2.5 instead of 0. Perhaps it makes a lot of difference. Will look at shortly. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 how long does it take to go down to 625 RPM at cold start? adallak, at cold start----around 1000-1100 RPM's (I'm guessing 1000 as I have no tach besides the DIC) for 4 seconds - then down to 800, then about 1.5 - 2 minutes to 625 RPM. The 1000 RPM's is a lot less than it was before...may have been more than 1500 RPM's at start up before. Hope that helps. Let me know how it goes. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Glad to hear you got it right. Someone else here is having the same problem I was going to refer them to you. I believe that its necessary to adjust the TPS, ISC and Min Air to get it right.. Glad its right. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Thanks Mike! She has never started & idled like the this the whole 10 weeks I've owned her. I was starting to think Cadillacs had their own unique crappy idle pattern. Glad that's not so...as I Love her even more now. I feel more at ease using the OBD now also. Thanks a million Mike! I'd be glad to help someone else if I can. You can refer them this way no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 I was starting to think Cadillacs had their own unique crappy idle pattern. Glad that's not so... Come on you know thats not true GM does not design flaws into their cars (unlike FORD ), the TB adjustment process while easy once you finish it, is pretty intimidating before you do it! Getting the idle down is not a simple matter of adjusting the ISC screw in as you have found out, nor is it as it used to be in the old days when the dashpot or idle stop was adjusted. Once you get it right its amazing how beautiful it idles, starts and comes to rest..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Yes, I see now it all inter-mingles with the PCM. If one is off, the whole idle will be off due to the PCM computer. Is that about right? One question, is it normal for the idle to bounce around occasionally from say 600 to 625 to 675 to 650 to 675 to 625 and so on? Or is that an indication somethings wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 While I love the digital dash, I think it creates undue concerns in drivers that pay too much attention to the digital readouts and react to them (like me ). One readout in particular that gets a lot of attention is the TEMP readout. As you may or may not know my bloodpressure moves up concurrently with my TEMP guage as it goes above 220.... If I had an analog guage, I don't think it would be as responsive and therefore my heart rate would remain normal.... The same can be said about the RPM and ALTERNATOR readouts. If your engine is not surging up and down and you can not feel it surging, RPM ranging between 625 and 675 is negligible and pretty normal. Mine moves between 625 and 650. It could be that it moves in groups of 25 and in reality the ranging is not as bad as is reported. Anotherwords, say you are at 625, then the engine moves to 638, at that point the digital readout must register as 650. Lately I have been turning my dash off and just driving the SOB..... Our good friend bbobynski caused me to relax about the TEMP readout and not to freak out when I saw 240 - 245 in traffic (but it took a few posts for him to calm my fears) Maybe you want to complain to bbobynski (with a post that states, THE NS SUCKS RPM RANGING 625 to 650!!! ) as to why it won't stay at 625!! I will stand behind you and listen...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldgamer Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Talking about digital... by me analog tahometer is much more convinient than digital, because it's a real time meter. I don't care there is 625 RPM or 630RPM. Because of discrete time of metering, digital reads are convinient only if we need to know value with high accuracy. But if we need to see flactuation, analog readers much better. If I need to check the battery voltage I'll use a digital voltmeter. If I want to research voltage flactuation, sure I'll use analog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 While I love the digital dash, I think it creates undue concerns in drivers that pay too much attention to the digital readouts and react to them (like me ). One readout in particular that gets a lot of attention is the TEMP readout. As you may or may not know my bloodpressure moves up concurrently with my TEMP guage as it goes above 220.... If I had an analog guage, I don't think it would be as responsive and therefore my heart rate would remain normal.... The same can be said about the RPM and ALTERNATOR readouts. If your engine is not surging up and down and you can not feel it surging, RPM ranging between 625 and 675 is negligible and pretty normal. Mine moves between 625 and 650. It could be that it moves in groups of 25 and in reality the ranging is not as bad as is reported. Anotherwords, say you are at 625, then the engine moves to 638, at that point the digital readout must register as 650. Lately I have been turning my dash off and just driving the SOB..... Our good friend bbobynski caused me to relax about the TEMP readout and not to freak out when I saw 240 - 245 in traffic (but it took a few posts for him to calm my fears) Maybe you want to complain to bbobynski (with a post that states, THE NS SUCKS RPM RANGING 625 to 650!!! ) as to why it won't stay at 625!! I will stand behind you and listen...... Thanks Mike! Yes, I can feel it also. What gives? It's hardly noticeable, and I'll probably ignore it, but was curious as to what typically causes that...vacuum leak?...I called myself checking for leaks spraying intake cleaner on all the vac hoses I saw. Maybe I missed it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Well if you can feel it surging we need to get the brain trusts here thinking about that. My 4.9 never surged. It could be a fuel filter, FPR I guess, lets see what the guys say about that, you should not feel it. It also could be an ignition problem, a bad wire will cause that. Why dont you summarize what you have done so far, I have lost track. Mike (I am hitting the sack, good night) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Normally a surging idle is a symptom of a vacuum leak but personally I don't think ranging from 625-650 is abnormal or anything to worry about. I would certainly not consider that surging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Well if you can feel it surging we need to get the brain trusts here thinking about that. My 4.9 never surged. It could be a fuel filter, FPR I guess, lets see what the guys say about that, you should not feel it. It also could be an ignition problem, a bad wire will cause that. Why dont you summarize what you have done so far, I have lost track. Mike (I am hitting the sack, good night) So far the things I've done: 1. Fuel pump was replaced right before I bought it 10 weeks ago. 2. Replaced starter. 3. Replaced thermostat, cap & coolant. 4. Replaced oil filter adapter seals. 5. Replaced PCV valve & air filter. 6. Throttle body cleaned 3 times. 7. Replaced ISC. 8. Adjusted the min. idle to 525, adjusted the TPS to -.2, adjusted the ISC max. extension to 13.4 9. Changed oil to 10W40 Valvoline Max-Life - For #1 Bearing knock & leak. Once warm, I can hear & feel the idle surging. It goes from say 600 to 675 RPM's. It stays primarily at 625. It's barely noticeable, and I'm not real concerned, but was just curious. Part of me wants to find & fix the problem as I have so much time wrapped up into the idle adjustment. I called myself checking for vacuum leaks by spraying intake cleaner on the vacuum hoses and listening for it to bog down. I may have missed some as I'm not real familiar with all the vacuum lines. My throttle body concerns me as a poss. culprit as the throttle blade seemed to stick at times and I could push the throttle lever down further to the min. idle screw at times. I called myself cleaning it well. Most of the time it didn't do that. Not sure if it was temp related? Does the TB expand & contract due to heat...lots of aluminum there. Any ideas guys on what may be causing this idle surge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Mine idles at about 650 which I think is spec. Maybe at 525 you have yours set to low and it's trying to adjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 The 525 RPM is the minimum idle setting with the ISC disabled. The ISC will elevate the idle speed accordingly. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 What concerned me is that he could feel it surging or ranging, which is not normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted October 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Yes, the 525 RPM's is the min. idle speed with the ISC fully retracted and disengaged. I also have a sulphur smell when I drive it real hard. I Can smell it when I come to a stop...doesn't happen all the time though...figured it was bad gas. Has anyone had problems with Costco gas? I banged on the Catalytic converter w/ a rubber hammer...no rocks heard. I've had this sulphur smell before & after the adjustments. Quote from Ranger to another post: Sulfur smell means you are running rich. Check for a leaky FPR or injector. Also maybe the sticking EGR may have something to do with it. Could that be a potential area to look at for the idle surge? Or is it a vacuum leak I haven't found yet? Thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Have you pulled the vacuum hose off the FPR to check for gas? You could have an intermittant FPR problem wait until it surges again and take a look. You are going to be an expert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 epricedright, your Caddilac is a driving machine ton learning one. just drive it! The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 See my post on 10/7 (sams) regarding egg smell and changing gas http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3615&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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