hms200 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks Oh well, you'll have the tank soon By the way, when I bought mine, I got rockauto.com's price and took it to my local dealer and they honored it (surprisingly), this way I got the part immediately Darn...I didn't check Rock Auto pricing before ordering. Used an online source I've gone with several times before after comparing their price vs. several other sources. I just checked Rock Auto...could have saved $10 total with them. Also didn't consider trying to get a local price match for immediate acquisition...will remember that next time though. The one I orders is GM OEM...Rock Auto is AC Delco...might be one in the same...not sure. I did see a few other after market brands slightly lower, but not by more than a few bucks. In any case...got FedEx notice that it's scheduled for delivery on Monday, so that's pretty fast for FedEx Ground. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 i thought hms said he could boil system in driveway with no radiator cap. he has cracked tank so system can never reach 15-17psi? i guess thats where i was going with my radiator cap thought. so if i go out to my car now and take off cap and idle it, it will overheat? in driveway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 i thought hms said he could boil system in driveway with no radiator cap. he has cracked tank so system can never reach 15-17psi? i guess thats where i was going with my radiator cap thought. so if i go out to my car now and take off cap and idle it, it will overheat? in driveway? My earlier tests were not being done at idle speeds. I was attempting to simulate normal driving conditions somewhat by running up to 2500-3000 rpm's and then down...up/down/up/etc. Maybe it wasn't so much boiling as a combination of that plus pressure surge pushing the water out thru what was pretty much determined to be a weak/failed cap. Between the believed weak cap and the crack it most certainly wasn't holding proper pressure, but there was some pressure as I had validated by both hoses being hot and under pressure (hard). Also, I never noticed the crack squirt during any of my prior tests until the cap was replaced and I had it up on the highway for extreme road test. I guess it could have been there...just never spotted or smelled it though. But...most focus was elsewhere, at the cap and all other areas away from the tank. In any case...it's not a finalized conclusion that sole issue here resides with the tank (I do hope that's the case). Plan is to replace the known failure and then proceed with further testing, perhaps more formal/extreme than my prior efforts, as others had been encouraging me to do in the first place. Cooling system pressure test, tank or tail pipe sniff analysis and leak down test are all possible steps I may follow (all or some) once I've obtained a sealed system. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks Oh well, you'll have the tank soon By the way, when I bought mine, I got rockauto.com's price and took it to my local dealer and they honored it (surprisingly), this way I got the part immediately I always try to get my dealer to price match... "MOST" of the time they will. Saves me time and the hassle of having it shipped and then having to wait on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks Oh well, you'll have the tank soon By the way, when I bought mine, I got rockauto.com's price and took it to my local dealer and they honored it (surprisingly), this way I got the part immediately I always try to get my dealer to price match... "MOST" of the time they will. Saves me time and the hassle of having it shipped and then having to wait on it... Yep...filed away in my brain for future reference. I usually buy online since most maintenance/repairs I do are not immediate urgent...usually time to plan ahead and shop for best prices. Never thought about asking local dealer to match price, though I did price compare local (yikes!) and other online channels I have. I'll definitely give that a shot next time. That tank sure had a wide range of pricing across all channels...huge range actually. Thx TJ and BBF!! HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 As good as Rockauto is, I have beaten their price (at times) with Amazon and I think I have heard that you can on the surge tanks. I recently saved $20 (and free shipping) on an AIR pump from Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 As good as Rockauto is, I have beaten their price (at times) with Amazon and I think I have heard that you can on the surge tanks. I recently saved $20 (and free shipping) on an AIR pump from Amazon. Yep...I often check amazon for pricing as well...sometimes good, sometimes not. As for the tank there wasn't good pricing on amazon this time around. I purchased from buycadillacpartsforless.com and as I said, turned out the total (shipping included) was ~$10 more than rockauto, but it is OEM. Not sure if the rockauto AC Delco tank is OEM or not...probably yes. The source I used is pretty good for hard to find OEM parts and at usually pretty good prices. Example: Have you tried to source online OEM molded hood insulators lately? These folks have them, at very good price and with free FedEx ground shipping. I already replaced my Deville insulator from this source and have one coming for the Eldorado as well along with the tank...both to arrive on Monday. Hey...one last sourcing tip... Clips/Connectors/Fasteners/More...Page Auto (clipsandfasteners.com)...GREAT pricing on bulk quantities and with lightening fast delivery. Would strongly recommend these folks if they have what you're looking for. My hood insulator retaining clips are from them, among other things. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 LATEST UPDATE...will document latest activity step by step...see what you think. 1. Installed the new coolant tank and refilled coolant using 50/50 mix. 2. Performed another highway test drive @ 65-85 mph. 3. Normal temp reading is typically reading just beyond TDC (high side of normal range). 4. During highway speeds I observed TWO momentary temp rises to a point between 225 and 245 degree ticks, but then quickly returned back to its normal. Huh?? 5. No boiling or surge from overflow tube during test drive or upon returning to garage...no coolant loss that I could detect or smell. 6. After cooling for a bit I checked coolant level in tank. Topped off the tank with ~1/4 gal coolant. To be expected for a new fill-up, even with purge line setup or would one suspect it boiled out on highway? 7. Just for grins, I performed another blue water block test again, this time using a different spare bottle of blue chemical I had onhand since some suggested what I used last time might be old. Still got no positive results whatsoever. Guess my spare bottle could be old as well. Oh well...was just a shot in the dark. 8. Pulled DTC's (SES light's been on since I purchased the car) since I need to go get emissions test - Only "Current" codes were P0171 and P0174...checked for vacuum leaks but none found. 9. Cleared all DTC's to turn off SES light and took vehicle for emissions test (needed registration - only had temp tag). 10. Vehicle passed emissions with flying colors. 11. Registered vehicle before temp tags expired on me. 12. Took vehicle to a nearby shop and inquired about what tests they could perform for validating HG's. Was told 1) Cooling System Pressure Test, 2) Smoke up the tailpipe test (said test would show smoke anywhere that exhaust is escaping, including into coolant via a head gasket leak). He did say it may or may not prove anything with HG's since heads may be leaking only under heavy load. They didn't have a test to verify exhaust gases in the cooling system...just the pressure and smoke tests. 13. Shop strongly recommended that I replace water pump as my next step. Ok, of course. They said that failed impeller blades can cause the flux of temp as I described, without any of the other typical classic outward signs of a failed water pump, due to poor coolant flow...obviously, but flux quickly as a result? He showed me diagram of the pump itself (very strange design, wow) and advised that I'd need a special OEM tool to disengage the spring loaded pump cylinder from housing if I'm to replace it myself. Is there no other way to verify proper coolant movement short of replacing the water pump or removal to inspect the blades?? 14. Well, left the shop still scratching my head, still thinking I need a specific exhaust gases in coolant test as my next step...so on to a radiator shop I suppose. Couldn't a flaky temp sensor cause the strange momentary temp flux I observed? Seems very strange and unlikely that a sudden climbing temp could/would recover back to normal so quickly as I had observed...within ~10-15 seconds I'd say. All my past experience has been that once overheating begins it's very difficult to reverse that movement on the fly...certainly wouldn't expect it to reverse so quickly. Odd or reasonable?? 15. On drive back home the SES light returned...no overheating and no coolant loss. Pulled the codes and the P0171 and P0174 codes have returned. 16. Coolant level is still fine, with no boiling/surging and no overheating during the city driving and emissions test. As for vacuum leaks, I cannot spot any suspects so far from just manual viewing, probing around and listening for hiss. I did correct several bad hose connections earlier that I had stumbled across during other troubleshooting (compression test) activities, associated with crankcase ventilation tube from front valve cover to throttle body, but nothing recent. Have not yet attempted to troubleshoot any other common possible causes of the two codes appearing together other than I do know air filter and filter canister are clean, intake hose is intact (no cracks/splits) and the throttle housing is clean and clear from what I had observed earlier. I also did check the bolts on air intake manifold to ensure snug...they are. Could still be a gasket leak there though I suppose. So that's where things stand as of tonight folks. I'll be attempting to find a garage or radiator shop that offer tests that I feel are appropriate. Smoke test up the tail pipe sound appropriate to anybody here as the next test? Didn't sound right to me...BBF said multiple times, get a test to verify gases in the coolant. I could change the temp sensor I suppose (it's cheap I think)...but that's chasing problem thru more trial and error, which I'm trying hard to resist. Think I should? HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Um...CORRECTION on one point... 15. On drive back home the SES light returned...no overheating and no coolant loss. Pulled the codes and the P0171 and P0174 codes have returned. 16. Coolant level is still fine, with no boiling/surging and no overheating during the city driving and emissions test. Just went out to confirm tank coolant level after it cooled from my city driving trip to emissions, DMV and to the shop this evening. No overheating...BUT...I just topped off the tank again with 1/3 gallon of coolant. So, very doubtful that was due to trapped air (gave benefit of the doubt on that with top off of 1/2 gal after the highway test last night) this time around. Since I see no external evidence of leaking, surge pressure overflow or boiling overflow...it sure seems to be going somewhere. Lights darken as conclusions are being reached...but, "GET THE TEST" is still ringing in my ears. If it's sucking coolant at that rate then the right shop test should get very postive results easily I'd think, so long as engine is at normal operating temp. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterset Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When the car is cold, can we disconect te surge line & place it in a small glass jar with 1/4" of coolant, and see if it bubbles exhaust gases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When the car is cold, can we disconect te surge line & place it in a small glass jar with 1/4" of coolant, and see if it bubbles exhaust gases? Hmmm...interesting idea...standby for results...will run out to garage now. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When the car is cold, can we disconect te surge line & place it in a small glass jar with 1/4" of coolant, and see if it bubbles exhaust gases? Hmmm...interesting idea...standby for results...will run out to garage now. HMS Oh wait...you say "surge line", the hose coming off the the tank mouth for overflow divert to under side of car? You're not meaning the purge line, right? Seems somebody said before that the purge line has a constant positive water flow. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When the car is cold, can we disconect te surge line & place it in a small glass jar with 1/4" of coolant, and see if it bubbles exhaust gases? Hmmm...interesting idea...standby for results...will run out to garage now. HMS Oh wait...you say "surge line", the hose coming off the the tank mouth for overflow divert to under side of car? You're not meaning the purge line, right? Seems somebody said before that the purge line has a constant positive water flow. Right? I wouldn't swear to it... but I think he meant the PURGE line ... that's the one that would have bubbles in it if the HG was leaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When the car is cold, can we disconect te surge line & place it in a small glass jar with 1/4" of coolant, and see if it bubbles exhaust gases? Hmmm...interesting idea...standby for results...will run out to garage now. HMS Oh wait...you say "surge line", the hose coming off the the tank mouth for overflow divert to under side of car? You're not meaning the purge line, right? Seems somebody said before that the purge line has a constant positive water flow. Right? I wouldn't swear to it... but I think he meant the PURGE line ... that's the one that would have bubbles in it if the HG was leaking. Agreed...it's the only line that would make sense for bubbles. But...any idea if it has constant positive water flow when engine running? Am I gonna squirt coolant all over the garage when I crank her up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Well...was a nice idea, but as I thought was the case, the purge line has a constant positive coolant flow. So no such bubble test is really practical. It did fill up my glass quickly with coolant though. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Well...was a nice idea, but as I thought was the case, the purge line has a constant positive coolant flow. So no such bubble test is really practical. It did fill up my glass quickly with coolant though. HMS I am not too sure of that...if it was purging exhaust from the cooling system..I would think that there would be bubbles in it. But maybe not. I hope someone else joins in with their opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Well...was a nice idea, but as I thought was the case, the purge line has a constant positive coolant flow. So no such bubble test is really practical. It did fill up my glass quickly with coolant though. HMS The purge line is suppose to flow freely, like you said a constant positive coolant flow. Any AIR is deposited into the TOP of the coolant tank, that is the point of the purge line. You didnt have any air in your system Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Um...CORRECTION on one point... 15. On drive back home the SES light returned...no overheating and no coolant loss. Pulled the codes and the P0171 and P0174 codes have returned. 16. Coolant level is still fine, with no boiling/surging and no overheating during the city driving and emissions test. Just went out to confirm tank coolant level after it cooled from my city driving trip to emissions, DMV and to the shop this evening. No overheating...BUT...I just topped off the tank again with 1/3 gallon of coolant. So, very doubtful that was due to trapped air (gave benefit of the doubt on that with top off of 1/2 gal after the highway test last night) this time around. Since I see no external evidence of leaking, surge pressure overflow or boiling overflow...it sure seems to be going somewhere. Lights darken as conclusions are being reached...but, "GET THE TEST" is still ringing in my ears. If it's sucking coolant at that rate then the right shop test should get very postive results easily I'd think, so long as engine is at normal operating temp. HMS Do not "top off" the surge tank with coolant. The correct level is about 2-1/2" below the bottom of the fill neck. The newer cars have a surge tank with a translucent lower half. Fill only to the top of the translucent portion in that case. As far as the shop saying that the water pump is causing the temp. fluctuations, that is pure BS... If the water pump is not dripping out of the weep hole, leave it alone; it is not bad. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thx guys... Yes, clearly the purge line was flowing freely with coolant, not air/exhaust. I'll find a shop that's able/willing to perform the test(s) I'm looking for. The smoke test described just didn't sound out right to me...but maybe I'm simply too old school. I believe that some combination of tests to analyze the cooling system for exhaust along with perhaps pressure test of cooling system is where focus should be at this stage in the game. Agreed...the water pump tale was a bit hard to accept. It was the typical replace and hope shotgun concept that we've all seen before. If cheap and easily done then maybe there would be some merit...but water pump isn't cheap or easy. Good point on NOT topping off the tank...thx. I had been going off basis of the being a part of closed/sealed cooling system rather than an external surge overflow. But...point well taken on full line being lower to allow for water expansion space when hot. My first top off of 1/2 gal could very well have been exactly what I topped off the last time, 1/3 gal, since I wasn't as careful to measure closely first time around. If I recall correctly, visual level thru mouth of tank looked similar...and I'd estimate it was just about 2"-3" from top as you noted Kevin. So, back onto my quest for a trustworthy shop that can/will perform the proper remaining tests. Hey...has anybody personally experienced or heard of what a flaky temp sensor might do with a Northstar or other similar? I've personally experienced 100% failed and bogus consistent reading from a failed sensor, but so far never a flux reading like I saw here. It does seem logical though...warrants inspection of contact point at least. There was evidence of a prior violent coolant leak on the hood insulator that I just replaced, directly over the water pump area, plus service history does confirm that water pump housing gasket was replaced due to gasket failure on 11/03/2008, 95,104 miles (current mileage is 114K). Could be a dirty temp sensor connection? Engine and compartment is very-very clean, but corrosion maybe on the sensor connector terminal...I'll check that out. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 You need to figure out where the coolant is going to assuming it is external.. 1. Make sure your radiator side tanks are not cracked. Tiny cracks in the upper side of a tank (usually intake tank) open up as temperature goes up. Because it is in the upper part, you do not loose a lot of coolant and have to top off from time to time until the tank goes south completely. Take a flashlight and carefully examine the side of the tank which looks at the grill. 2. Some leaks are so small you cannot see them at low RPM. At higher RPM you are inside of a moving car, so you cannot see them either. Open up the hood and rev the engine up manually, watch for tiny leaks at high RPM. That's how I found my "T" a plastic heater valve had a pinhole. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 You need to figure out where the coolant is going to assuming it is external.. 1. Make sure your radiator side tanks are not cracked. Tiny cracks in the upper side of a tank (usually intake tank) open up as temperature goes up. Because it is in the upper part, you do not loose a lot of coolant and have to top off from time to time until the tank goes south completely. Take a flashlight and carefully examine the side of the tank which looks at the grill. 2. Some leaks are so small you cannot see them at low RPM. At higher RPM you are inside of a moving car, so you cannot see them either. Open up the hood and rev the engine up manually, watch for tiny leaks at high RPM. That's how I found my "T" a plastic heater valve had a pinhole. Thank you sir...yes I need validation that system is now completely sealed, with no coolant escape anywhere external. I've seen no evidence of that (sight/smell) so far...but hey. That's purpose also for plan to get coolant system pressure test in addition to the test/analysis of coolant for exhaust gases. I will closely inspect again as well, as you suggest. HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi again gents...this is directed specifically to BBF and any others that may have some first hand input please. I had a very long discussion with a very reputable auto repair shop in Parker, CO. They have been in business for well over 25 years here and have an "A" rating with BBB. Only 4 complaints filed with BBB over last 3 years (only 1 in last year) and all 4 were resolved. (www.parkerautomotiveinc.com) I gave him full history of situation and all test results performed to date and he quizzed me as well. So, I asked him where he would go with this from here and he said NOWHERE...I've already done it all to the point where he can say I have no problem. He said he'd love to take my money but he can't justify further testing from here based on all info provided. When I questioned the momentary temp flux he said that is completely normal for the Northstar. Really?? So here's they key question for all you REALLY smart Northstar guru's out there. The guy stated that the Northstar uses its cylinder shut-down technology to control heat in the "normal" course of operation, and that's exactly what I spotted with the momentary temp spike with rapid recovery. Really?? I had thought I clearly understood the cylinder shut-down terchnology for Northstar to be part of the "limp home" emergency measures ONLY...not utilizing built in technology designed for normal operation. That sounded very-very bazaar to me, but I'm very far from being an expert here to challange what he had just said. BBF or others...can you confirm any of this? So...he refused to take my money by performing any additional testing because according to him I clearly have no problem. When I told him that all 8 spark plugs, with 15K miles on them, were found to be in near new condition when inspected, he said then there is NO WAY I have blown HG's. Btw...he did confirm that the smoke test up the tail pipe is a very good and valid test that they also perform almost daily. He did call BS on the water pump impeller claim I heard yesterday, as I too hadn't pretty much rejected. Thoughts BBF or others...I'm all ears? I'm still trying to get a Northstar education here, so I hope you'll all bare with me as I talk thru the many different things and perspectives I continue to get. I'm trying hard to "get the test"...but the pro's tend to say no. I'm certain I can find somebody to do any test I may desire so long as I'm willing to pay...but I'm also trying to listen to what the pro's are telling me as well. Any consensus out there that I'm simply chasing a nonexistant issue at this point gents? HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Just my opinion.. take it for what it may be worth. I am "NOT" a NorthStar expert by any means...but I have been around here a while and read what a lot of the smart guys have written... I think you need to make sure you don't have any external leaks. Then you need to drive it a few days and see what it does...remembering to keep a REAL CLOSE EYE on the coolant level. If I am understanding all your posts correctly... Except for the couple of real momentary spikes the other day... you have had no more over heating issues. My understanding of the Cylinder Shut Down procedure is... it is only used in extreme cases for LIMP HOME MODE is needed. If it was used in normal operation to control heat.. in your particular instance...you would have felt a tremendous power loss when it shut down cylinders... My temp has went over the middle mark a few times.. and about halfway to the 3rd mark. I would be willing to make a substantial wager that none of my cylinders shut down... This was in the mountain of Colorado after driving it pretty hard, at high RPM and then running about 20 MPH pulling a STEEP grade. I would consider that normal...based on how I was driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 ok, now give us a brief summary of your problem again Is it boiling over? What are the temp ranges? Are there any leaks? Do you smell coolant? Does the needle spike above half way and how far What have you done?, there are a few here we are working with, did you replace the tank recently or am I confusing you with someone else Refresh our memories at this point, in a brief organized fashion Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hms200 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Just my opinion.. take it for what it may be worth. I am "NOT" a NorthStar expert by any means...but I have been around here a while and read what a lot of the smart guys have written... I think you need to make sure you don't have any external leaks. Then you need to drive it a few days and see what it does...remembering to keep a REAL CLOSE EYE on the coolant level. If I am understanding all your posts correctly... Except for the couple of real momentary spikes the other day... you have had no more over heating issues. My understanding of the Cylinder Shut Down procedure is... it is only used in extreme cases for LIMP HOME MODE is needed. If it was used in normal operation to control heat.. in your particular instance...you would have felt a tremendous power loss when it shut down cylinders... My temp has went over the middle mark a few times.. and about halfway to the 3rd mark. I would be willing to make a substantial wager that none of my cylinders shut down... This was in the mountain of Colorado after driving it pretty hard, at high RPM and then running about 20 MPH pulling a STEEP grade. I would consider that normal...based on how I was driving. Thx TJ...so your understanding of "Limp Home" measures are similar to mine then, but I too am so not a Northstar expert...so what do I really know? Hope others can chime in here? Agreed on proving no external leaks (pressure test I guess because I sure haven't spotted any) and maybe I do just force the issue and pull out my wallet for the tests in spite of what the pro's are saying. Could just drive and see what happens (I'll be doing that yes) but before I could trully trust it with something other than local use I need more validation than what I have currently. This has all been way too bazaar so far...with no real clarity. I know BBF...I hear ya...get the tests! LOL HMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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