When it rains it pours, low oil pressure!

[tm8272]

I don't see how the toe alignment was affected without adjusting the tie-rods. The top strut mounts would affect camber but I wouldn't think it would affect toe alignment to the degree the steering wheel would be off position.

I'm concerned they might have damaged something else in process of engine R/R because of the comment shop owner made to me. When I went to pick up the car the first time he said the steering wheel column had a code we pulled with our reader. That was before I got into car and seen the wheel turned half a complete turn to the left!! You go straight down the highway and the caddy emblem on center of wheel was turned to the 10am position!! I could not believe that!! I thought then maybe it just needs aligned and I can have that done, no big deal. Then all the other issues with antifreeze leak one day and then I seen the pulley wobbling when I looked down into the motor on the front passenger side. That was on a Sunday, the day I had Sears replace the LF wheel sensor. I called shop the next day, Monday and told them I had a knock in engine after warm and the other issues and told them I think I got a bad engine. They told me to bring it back and we can go over everything. I still cant believe I had so many issues including the steering wheel after engine R/R and the guy knew something was up with the steering wheel that is why he mentioned it had a code!!

As I was taking it back to shop it broke down ( low oil pressure msg came one) so had car towed. I then met shop owner and showed him the codes it had on the dash. At that time the T023 Current and a few History codes I wrote down. I didnt pull up system data at that time in detail. Shop owner knows he did something with steering to cause wheel to be turned . That is why I want Cadillac shop to document and find issue. I dont feel safe driving a vehicle with that issue and it can do further damage to tires and other parts and cause driving issues with stability and control. When I went back the second time to get vehicle he said the steering wheel was fixed. I didnt even ask him how he did that. At this point I was so disgusted and frustrated I didnt want to get myself more upset and mad and wanted to keep it professional with the shop owner at the time. If I do have to end of replacing engine I will pay for someone else to install it and not this shop after this experience. I dont want them to do anymore damage to my car than they have already done and depending on my out of pocket cost at Caddy dealer I may be going back on him for steering wheel issue cost to cure.

[tm8272]

Ok good luck, let us know how this turns out

I picked my car up from the Caddy dealer and they did have to align the front end after the engine was replaced. The dealer went over the specs in detail of before and after and gave me detailed print out which I thought was nice. They also checked out the electrical and alternator and starter on a small drain on battery. They found no drain, only a 9 mili amp that is normal. Said the battery is bad and will not hold a charge. It is only a month old. So I left the Caddy dealer and went to Sears and bought the Platinum 880CCA sealed battery for 199.00. I drove my car home and was in heavy bumper to bumper traffic and noticed the coolant had raised to 223, which was a little concerning. The old engine was always 217 mostly and rarely went to 221. I will have to watch the temp very carefully for sure!!

We got hit with some bad weather and snow so I havent had a chance to take car back out yet. I did start it to move it in driveway and again the engine feels and sounds week or sluggish to initially crank over even with new beefed up battery. I'm afraid your earlier statements about maybe a drag on engine or bearings internal or rods being to tight might be an issue. I appreciate the words of wisdom. I plan on taking the car into town tomorrow and will see how it acts. The owner of shop has 7 other mechanics working for him and you would of thought they could of gotten this right. Each mechanic has there own area they specialize in I was told by office person. The owner of shop is very quiet but when I picked up car last time I was a little upset about his comment on Jasper engines. He said we have always used them and they stand behind there products. He said they wanted to give him another engine to put in and he told them NO lets try the Harmonic Balancer first!!! I bit my tongue! Was standing outside in the cold and dark in front my my car running at the time. I was furious but didnt say anything. If I end up replacing this engine I will not take it back to this shop, I will have to pay out of pocket to get it done elsewhere and I will very carefully research shop for sure. I dont feel confident with this car because of drag or sluggish crank on start up issue. Never had that with old engine with bad head gasket. Since it is so close to the holidays I might wait til after to pursue engine issue unless I have serious problems with it tommorrow when out for the drive on business appointments. Thanks again for all you help and thoughts on this!

[Cadillac Jim]

The mechanic apparently was trying to save his own time and money by postponing the Jasper warranty.

Sometimes a battery switch causes low performance and economy for a tank of gas or so because the spark curve program is lost when the battery is disconnected. The spark curve program remembers when the knock sensor says to back off, and uses engine temperature, intake air temperature, manifold air pressure, RPM, throttle position, and engine loading to set the spark advance. Try putting in a tank of 92 or 93 octane and putting it through its paces, within break-in rules, and see if the performance comes back. The owner's manual will have something on the process of re-learning after the battery is disconnected.

[BodybyFisher]

If I were you, I would send your oil in for analysis for the first year. IF, just IF now, the bearings have been damaged, or are too tight, an oil analysis would be telling. To to Blackstone Labs and order a kit http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

What did caddy find with the slow crank?, tight bearings would have shown an increased current draw..?

[BodybyFisher]

So you were mad at the mechanic because he pursued replacing the crank vs replacing the engine?

[Cadillac Jim]

I think he said that Jasper wanted to replace the engine and the mechanic wanted to replace just the damper wheel first.

[BodybyFisher]

I think he said that Jasper wanted to replace the engine and the mechanic wanted to replace just the damper wheel first.

I could see both sides of that, I can see MYSELF not wanting an engine that lost oil pressure and I can see the mechanic not wanting to burn time replacing an engine that could be fixed with replacing or retorquing the crank pulley, knowing that the engine did not suffer oil pressure loss too long.

BUT, the slow crank to me, COULD be an indication that something else is wrong here, internally OR from the low oil pressure

Save all receipts, get the oil analysis as third party support and maybe get the engine replaced eventually anyway.

Having the STARTER CURRENT DRAW amps also would be supportive of a problem

Build a case

[tm8272]

The mechanic apparently was trying to save his own time and money by postponing the Jasper warranty.

Sometimes a battery switch causes low performance and economy for a tank of gas or so because the spark curve program is lost when the battery is disconnected. The spark curve program remembers when the knock sensor says to back off, and uses engine temperature, intake air temperature, manifold air pressure, RPM, throttle position, and engine loading to set the spark advance. Try putting in a tank of 92 or 93 octane and putting it through its paces, within break-in rules, and see if the performance comes back. The owner's manual will have something on the process of re-learning after the battery is disconnected.

Yes, my thinking also. The shop owner was swamped with other vehicles and very busy and does not work his 7 mechanics weekends. I think he just wanted the fastest fix by doing another Harmonic Balancer instead of changing out engine. Also Jasper offers an additional upgrade to warranty I read in my paperwork for 165.00 to cover mechanic work on warranty issues up to 75.00 an hour and also covers car rental and car fluids. If mechanic has to swap out engine or other work, I dont think Jasper pays him is current going rate of 75.00 an hour. He takes a loss. Nobody at Jasper offered this additional upgrade to me to cover a higher labor rate per hour. I think I will talk to them about it and maybe take it. Jim did you take it when you did the Jasper reman engine?

I have noticed very low fuel mileage of about 16mpg. I used to get 18 to 20mpg city and highway was amazing at 28mpg! I always used 93 octane Shell fuel even when I traveled I would find a Shell station. Gave me the best fuel mileage. I thought I will run a tank of fuel through car and see how it runs after this. I put a full tank of Shell 93 Octane in car last week. I did drive the car on freeway and ran smooth but when I would make stops at stores, it was annoying and nerve racking when I would get in car to start it. The car would moan or sound week when trying to start up. I know the battery is a new Sears platinum which helps my concerns of car not starting on one of my stops but in extreme cold weather now and ice storm I have not drove car since last week. I dont want to be stranded in this cold stuff even with AAA towing.

Thanks for the tips on spark curve and battery re-learning. That helps me feel a little better. Did you have that issue with yours when you had new engine installed? Also I'm not sure who is responsible for torque on rods? Do you know if Jasper does that or mechanic once they get engine from Jasper? I would think the mechanic. Also curious if knock sensor is standard for mechanic to install in putting a Jasper engine or maybe because they had the knock issue?

I will check the service manual about the battery re-learn. I don't have my owners manual handy, I put it in a bag when I cleaned out car before taking it to shop. Have to find it. My main issues now are the starting issue or weak crank when starting car. Hope it doesnt damage the starter. I dont have any click noise from starter, or other issues, so slow or hard to crank start must be internal. I called a local chain of repair shops here in my area, similar to Goodyear chain. They told me today that it would cost me 20.00 to have them check starter and alternator in depth and explained concerns.

The mechanic telling me the second time I picked up car after Harmonic Balancer was replaced, said he thinks it is my starter going bad causing the weak or hard crank on start. It should fire right up and turn right over like it did with old engine. Shop owner didnt offer to check starter out. After seeing my front grill damaged when I picked up the car the second time I was very frustrated. Wanted to get my car away from there before they did more damage. How they would of damaged the grill I dont know. He seen me look at grille and I looked at him but didnt say anything. I was so mad and upset I was afraid I would say something I would regret so I walked away. I'm thinking what the..... ?? are they making my car a parts car and swaping parts? To explain, the front grill was perfect and when I picked car up the second time the passenger side of grill at top was dropped down about an inch and wasnt put up under the hood area like the other side. Also on the passenger side of grille at top edge of grill about a foot long area was bubbled, like the chrome or whatever was damaged. They may have just not got grille back in correctly. Not sure why they would of bothered it with doing the Harmonic Balancer. Thanks again for all your help. I will post an update once I go through the tank of fuel.

[tm8272]

I think he said that Jasper wanted to replace the engine and the mechanic wanted to replace just the damper wheel first.

I could see both sides of that, I can see MYSELF not wanting an engine that lost oil pressure and I can see the mechanic not wanting to burn time replacing an engine that could be fixed with replacing or retorquing the crank pulley, knowing that the engine did not suffer oil pressure loss too long.

BUT, the slow crank to me, COULD be an indication that something else is wrong here, internally OR from the low oil pressure

Save all receipts, get the oil analysis as third party support and maybe get the engine replaced eventually anyway.

Having the STARTER CURRENT DRAW amps also would be supportive of a problem

Build a case

Yes, thats why I agreed to let them try the Harmonic Balancer to resolve Low Oil Pressure but didn't think I would have this crank issue that leaves me nervous the car is not going to start of that I might cause damage to something or starter. Thanks for the info. I will have another local shop similar to Goodyear check the starter and alternator and see what they come up with. The dealer didnt do in depth check of starter because of battery drain they told me. It is my thinking that the slow crank is not going away and once I clarify the starter issue I will have to contact shop owner is issue comes back to internal torque on something that he needs to fix. I'm trying to be patient and work though these issues but if car has to go back to shop I'm concerned they will mess something else up. Frustrating. Good idea about building a case and I plan on doing so. Thanks again! Happy Holiday's to everyone!

[tm8272]

So you were mad at the mechanic because he pursued replacing the crank vs replacing the engine?

I would of preferred another engine installed but was ok with trying the balancer first as long as it was under warranty and no internal damage from Low Oil Pressure message. I gave mechanic the benefit of doubt. After a few days later what added to my frustration was mechanic trying to pass the buck and say I had a code for the steering wheel regarding my steering wheel turned and also ABS Brake light on. After I faxed him a typed letter asking him to take responsibility for his mistakes and or errors regarding both issues he attempted to resolve them. I even faxed him the TSB I posted regarding the Low Oil pressure and Balance torgue issue. He did fix the ABS Brake light they caused to come on. It was a loose connector in the ABS Brake unit. I had him show it to me. It is on the passenger side in very back of engine, against the firewall on top of engine. The steering wheel attempt was just that, not correct. I had to take it right to the dealer for them to check and they alignment that fixed it for 100.00. Also when I picked up vehicle second time the front grill was on an angle with the left side or passenger side down an inch compared to drivers side. Then him saying I think it is a starter going bad because of slow crank issue. All this added up. I felt like I had to fight with him or argue my point to get him to do what he is supposed to do.

He could of said I can check out the starter for an additional cost if you would like. Then if that is not an issue try to turn engine by hand to see if locked up or inspect flywheel bolts and flywheel. Check excessive connection rod or main bearing clearance. Inspect connecting rod bearings, connecting rods and crankshaft. Use a plastigage or feeler to gauge and measure assembled bearing clearance and see if excessive piston clearance. He just gave car back and said he you go. Good luck. Dropped it in my lap so to speak. So now I have to build a case like you mentioned and have starter checked and alternator. If those check out ok then I will have to either have those things checked I mentioned by another engine builder or take it back to this guy and ask him to do it.

[tm8272]

Thanks for posting that bulletin

Did you find out what the oil pressure was at 2000 rpm

No not from the dealer. The dealer said to check the oil pressure it was a lot of work and gave me an estimate of 385.00, besides the alignment I was having them do. Said they had to drop the oil pan and put on pressure gauge.

[tm8272]

If I were you, I would send your oil in for analysis for the first year. IF, just IF now, the bearings have been damaged, or are too tight, an oil analysis would be telling. To to Blackstone Labs and order a kit http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

What did caddy find with the slow crank?, tight bearings would have shown an increased current draw..?

Thanks for the info! Very good idea!! Can this test tell anything now with about 200 miles or should I wait til the 500 miles I have to change the oil?? The shop by the way did change the oil again he said when he put on the Harmonic balancer. I wonder why?? I will check out the site you mentioned.

[jndnaps]

"When it rains it pours"

Tell me about it. Everything I own is breaking..

[Cadillac Jim]

I didn't get any special warranty with my Jasper. I don't recall but I'm sure that I was aware of all the warranty options offered at the time. My mechanic is a local guy who has been there for years and is well-known in the community for competence and integrity, so whether or not he would honor the warranty was never an issue.

There is one possibility that has occurred to me since you mention three symptoms: low power, hard starting, and poor economy. Occam's Razor is a principle of logical deduction from sparse information that says that the simplest possible explanation of a phenomenon is the most likley correct one. In this case, one single, simple thing that can cause all your problems is a crossed plug wire, i.e. the wires intended for one cylinder going to another. This is actually more common that most people realize with cars that have distributors and is hard to diagnose and detect. With a Northstar, this requires that the plug wires be laid out wrong under the beauty cover. See this scan of page 6-161 of the 1997 FSM for plug wire routing:

The firing order is given on page 6-799 as 1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8. According to page 6-798 and the figure on page 6-799, the coils are connected as follows, from the side of the coil pack with the PCM connector to the other side with the connector for the crankshaft and camshaft sensors:

Coil 1, Plugs 5 and 2

Coil 2, Plugs 3 and 8

Coil 3, Plugs 1 and 4

Coil 4, Plugs 7 and 6

Note that the first wire is always to the rear bank and the second one to the front bank. This should all be simple enough to check out with a flashlight or trouble light and possibly a mechanic's mirror without actually touching anything other than taking off the beauty cover.

Looking at this information for wires next to each other that could be crossed but still let the engine seem to start and run OK in the shop, good candidates to look for are:

• Wires for 1 and 8 crossed at the coil pack.
• Wires for 6 and 8 crossed at the plugs or under the beauty cover.

Anything else would either cause backfiring when the car started or otherwise be too obvious to miss.

[Cadillac Jim]

With regard as to who tightens the rod bolts, the Jasper engines come all buttoned up. All you have to do is bolt on the water pump, cam covers, fuel injection, coil pack, damper wheel and accessories, and transmission, then hook up all the wiring, add oil, and you are good to go. The heads are assembled with a big machine that torques all the head bolts on each head at the same time, so I expect that the mains and rods are assembled mechanically too, not by human hands.

Jasper engines are run on a dyno at the factory before they are drained of oil and stripped of manifolds and water pump for shipping. No one should touch the engine innards once Jasper ships the engine. I would exchange the engine before I pulled one down, and I expect that Jasper would rather do that too, so that *they* can pull it down and see what happened. That way they can take steps to make sure that whatever went wrong doesn't happen again.

[BodybyFisher]

If I were you, I would send your oil in for analysis for the first year. IF, just IF now, the bearings have been damaged, or are too tight, an oil analysis would be telling. To to Blackstone Labs and order a kit http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

What did caddy find with the slow crank?, tight bearings would have shown an increased current draw..?

Thanks for the info! Very good idea!! Can this test tell anything now with about 200 miles or should I wait til the 500 miles I have to change the oil?? The shop by the way did change the oil again he said when he put on the Harmonic balancer. I wonder why?? I will check out the site you mentioned.

I would wait to send it in till 500 miles, the first oil change will turn up lots of bearing material (copper, etc, I believe). Do a search under Marika and Blackstone, she has been doing the Blackstones on her new Chevy, the first oil changes had high levels due to breakin, but if something was wrong, it would no doubt show up.

The other day I thought of you the other day when I found this "current draw" test, consider that instead of that motor, this was your starter. If the engine were hard to turn due to a tight bearing or rod bearing, the current draw would be high. Did the dealer do a current draw test to see if the starter is drawing a normal current on startup, indicating that the engine is not binding? See this, this is a normal test that is done. Obviously the battery must test good also

[KHE]

No not from the dealer. The dealer said to check the oil pressure it was a lot of work and gave me an estimate of 385.00, besides the alignment I was having them do. Said they had to drop the oil pan and put on pressure gauge.

HUH?? The dealer said they need to remove the oil pan to check the oil pressure????? I would ask them how they expect to check the oil pressure with the oil pan removed... They sound like they either do not want to mess with the job or they are a bunch of cretins...

There is a port on the oil filter adapter that is removed to allow an oil pressure gage to be hooked up to the system.

[Cadillac Jim]

Here we have a mechanic that doesn't torque the damper wheel, breaks the grille, and quite possibly crosses the plug wires - and he delivers a car with an engine swap without test driving the car. Now, we have a dealer service manager that wants to start the engine with the oil pan off. Your location is listed as West Michigan. This would be the Grand Rapids, MI area, right? We aren't talking about a place in Poland called "West Michigan" are we?

[KHE]

The mechanic and dealership in question are in Louisville, KY according to the info. in tm8272's post. Where did you get West Michigan?

[BodybyFisher]

Wow this just keeps getting worse. They can't check line pressure? There must be a miscommunication here, no dealer service can be so ignorant. I'd hate to hear their answer as to what the starter current draw was

[BodybyFisher]

The mechanic and dealership in question are in Louisville, KY according to the info. in tm8272's post. Where did you get West Michigan?

No doubt Jim read your location by accident, I have done that

[Cadillac Jim]

Well, Louisville KY should have a nice cultural environment with everybody having a high school education and most or all of their fingers, toes, and teeth, and know better than to pull the oil pan off a car and start it.

[tm8272]

I didn't get any special warranty with my Jasper. I don't recall but I'm sure that I was aware of all the warranty options offered at the time. My mechanic is a local guy who has been there for years and is well-known in the community for competence and integrity, so whether or not he would honor the warranty was never an issue.

There is one possibility that has occurred to me since you mention three symptoms: low power, hard starting, and poor economy. Occam's Razor is a principle of logical deduction from sparse information that says that the simplest possible explanation of a phenomenon is the most likley correct one. In this case, one single, simple thing that can cause all your problems is a crossed plug wire, i.e. the wires intended for one cylinder going to another. This is actually more common that most people realize with cars that have distributors and is hard to diagnose and detect. With a Northstar, this requires that the plug wires be laid out wrong under the beauty cover. See this scan of page 6-161 of the 1997 FSM for plug wire routing:

The firing order is given on page 6-799 as 1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8. According to page 6-798 and the figure on page 6-799, the coils are connected as follows, from the side of the coil pack with the PCM connector to the other side with the connector for the crankshaft and camshaft sensors:

Coil 1, Plugs 5 and 2

Coil 2, Plugs 3 and 8

Coil 3, Plugs 1 and 4

Coil 4, Plugs 7 and 6

Note that the first wire is always to the rear bank and the second one to the front bank. This should all be simple enough to check out with a flashlight or trouble light and possibly a mechanic's mirror without actually touching anything other than taking off the beauty cover.

Looking at this information for wires next to each other that could be crossed but still let the engine seem to start and run OK in the shop, good candidates to look for are:

• Wires for 1 and 8 crossed at the coil pack.
• Wires for 6 and 8 crossed at the plugs or under the beauty cover.

Anything else would either cause backfiring when the car started or otherwise be too obvious to miss.

Thanks for this suggestion!! I will check these as you suggested to make sure they are not crossed. Great suggestion! After everything that has happened I wouldn't be surprised if this was an issue too.

[tm8272]

Here we have a mechanic that doesn't torque the damper wheel, breaks the grille, and quite possibly crosses the plug wires - and he delivers a car with an engine swap without test driving the car. Now, we have a dealer service manager that wants to start the engine with the oil pan off. Your location is listed as West Michigan. This would be the Grand Rapids, MI area, right? We aren't talking about a place in Poland called "West Michigan" are we?

Sorry for delay in reply. I was out of town for two weeks and just playing catch up now that I'm back home.

I have to say when I read the last several posts late last night I started laughing so hard I started crying and got the hicups!! Thanks everyone! I needed that!!

You hit the nail on the head Jim, as far as describing and summarizing everything except I'm not in "Poland" or West Michigan...lol. Very funny! I needed this laugh after my long trip. Don't forget my car had the ABS brake light on when I first got it after engine swap and also steering wheel turned to the 10am position. When I mentioned both of those issues he said I got a code for the steering column?! He had no idea why ABS light was on, said he thought it was on when car arrived! Geesh! I had dealer do alignment for 100.00 and the guy that did engine swap did find a LOOSE Connector wire for the ABS unit that was loose! Yeah! He did fix that! It is on top of engine at back by firewall on passenger side. In case anyone else has an issue with a ABS Brake light, check that.

I did not mention that when I go to start car that sometimes it clicks and everything is dead until I push the gear shift in center console forward to start car. I called a local honest and reputable transmission shop this morning to ask him about issue. He said it happens sometimes in engine swaps and that it is an adjustment he can do. Told me to bring the car in today and he could take care of it. He had replaced the A and B shift solenoids a few years ago and did a good job and was honest. So I took car in today about noon and his two service bays were full and parking lot too. He had a younger employee go check my car out. The mechanic said that the shifter will go into all gears but my car does NOT start in the Neutral position and therefore he needs to remove two bolts and adjust this box for the shifter. Also a little more involved than what they thought when i called and told me it would take about an hour and they would have to have a bay free to put it in. Asked me if I could bring car back in the morning. I told them it depends on the weather, we are expecting some snow. He said ok, well whenever it is good. He said it would cost 75.00 but asked me why I didnt take it back to guy that changed engine and have him fix it. He should do it for free. I told him after what I have went through with this guy I wouldn't go back to him if he was only mechanic in town and I dont want him messing my car up anymore. It was like pulling teeth to get him to correct issues. He tried to pass the buck and acted uninterested in trying to resolve issues. I'm a member of a site called Angies List and I will be posting a review of him on there soon.

I'm in Louisville,Ky and I feel like I'm on another planet sometimes with the experience I have had and very frustrating. I'm from Cleveland Ohio and moved to this area about 10 years ago and thankfully never needed a lot of mechanic work done. Just basic stuff.

The guy at the transmission shop today said it might be because of the compression of new engine causing my starter dragging. I will have to do one thing at a time. My shifter will get fixed this week I hope then will work on checking out the starter. Thanks for any input and help on issues.

[Texas Jim]

You stated.........

The guy at the transmission shop today said it might be because of the compression of new engine causing my starter dragging.

And I call...

If that is the case...why don't all of the brand new Northstar engines have dragging starters??

I bought TWO new ones in 2006...both with the Northstar...neither one of them has EVER had a dragging starter.

Just asking...but think about it....