When it rains it pours, low oil pressure!

[tm8272]

Ok, here is my latest update on replacing engine with Jasper reman. I called shop today and told them I heard a knock in engine after it is warmed up and also seen a small antifreeze leak. They told me to bring it in to let them check it out. As I was on the 20 mile trip to shop I hit a traffic jam and was in the fast lane doing 10mph when I heard a "Ding" or alarm bell go off and I looked at my dash. It flashed "STOP ENGINE" and "Low Oil Pressure". I got over to side and pulled over and luckily found a pull off area. Called the repair shop and they told me they would be there til 630pm. They said maybe internal problem or oil pump issue. I called triple A to tow it to shop. About 45 mins later they arrived and took me and car to shop. The shop owner started the car and let it run. By this time it had cooled down. It smelled hot when I was waiting on AAA to get there. No overheating warnings came on though. I checked the temp on dash and it said 217 degrees, normal. Shop owner let it run to see if he could hear it knock or see light come on dash and after 10 mins he turned it off. He asked me if it would knock after I drove it for a while. I told him only 85 miles on engine since I picked it up and yes when I had drove about 12 miles to mall Sunday to get Sears to replace right front wheel sensor for ABS brake light that is on after engine R/R I heard knock sitting at a light. He said he has replaced two N* engines this year from Jasper and no problems. I said yeah, just my luck I guess!! Shop had closed but he waited til I had got car there. Told me he would check it out and let me know. Maybe it was a good thing to get stuck in traffic to find this problem early. If I had been going the 65mph speed I might not have had issue. The shop owners wife said to me that I was right if I heard a knock. There is an issue internal somewhere. I told her that is why I went with Jasper because of warranty. I know you can get a bad engine but check all the connections and harness and grounds and see if something was missed. They were nice about it and surprised that I had an issue. She said we try not to miss anything and do a good job. I told her things can happen and a lot of connections on these engines. She said if we have to pull engine to resolve issue Jasper will pay us the R/R so might as well put another engine in if we have to go that route. I told her I agree. I didnt put this kind of money out to have an engine that knocked when warm.

I have an issue with steering wheel and I told the owner about it. When driving the wheel is not straight with the cadillac emblem level it is turned to the left at the 10am position as I drive. I asked them if they did an alignment or checked that. He said we should have but will check. Told me he got some kind of code for steering column issue that was old code. Thought it was a problem I already had!!! I said NO! I have owned this car since 46,000 miles. I know every nuance and how things felt. I never had a problem with the steering wheel. So when they replace an engine does anyone know of something that might have caused this issue?? I appreciate the thoughts and advice. I havent had time to research anything on steering column issues. Only Current code I got was the T023 for the right front wheel sensor continuity fault. Had Sears replace it Sunday and still have ABS brake light on and traction disabled and code T023. Have to follow the flow chart to finish diagnosing this issue when other issues are resolved. i have read a few other posts on here with same issue of ABS brake light on after they replaced engine or had a shop replace engine. Nobody has posted an answer if they had issue resolved or fixed. Love to hear from someone if you have resolved the ABS brake light after R/R of engine. Of course big issues but now BIGGER issues to resolve first with engine. I will call garage in the morning and mention the oil pressure switch and see if that helps them with issue.

I got home and checked my service manual for the two warming messages that displayed. It showed a diagram and had "oil pressure switch" and then see instrument panel section 32. I dont know if this oil pressure switch is inside by the oil pump or where?? Does anyone know? Thanks for info and thoughts in advance.

[KHE]

Not sure why the steering wheel isn't straight - even if the shop removed the engine by dropping the powertrain out the bottom, the only thing that could have been affected is where the struts bolt to the tower in the engine compartment. Steering wheel position is affected by toe alignment.

[BodybyFisher]

You mentioned that the crank pulley was wobbling, if that bolt is not torqued to spec, the oil pressure will be low, have them retorque that bolt

[BodybyFisher]

The oil pressure switch inserted into the pan at the right front. I assume that they used the switch from your old engine is that correct? If you had no problem before, doubtful that its caused by the switch now, unless the connections are loose

Did the knock at idle go away?, low oil pressure may have caused the knock also. An upper engine knock would occur first with low oil pressure

Check for the ground at the ABS unit, it must be removed to drop the carriage, I dont think that ground would affect one wheel however, but have it checked, look for pinched or damaged wiring

[Cadillac Jim]

Either you or the installer should notify Jasper of what is happening ASAP. Failure to do so could void your warranty. The best side of doing this is that Jasper has been doing this for a long time with a lot of Northstars, and there is nothing that they have not seen before. They may be able to tell you what you need to do to fix everything right on the phone.

[tm8272]

You mentioned that the crank pulley was wobbling, if that bolt is not torqued to spec, the oil pressure will be low, have them retorque that bolt

Thanks for the great suggestion! I called the shop this morning and talked to an office person and gave them all this info to give to shop owner. He is older and quiet guy. Been in business for 30yrs and has ASE certified mechanics working for him. He has a passion for vehicles and runs race cars. I showed him last night the on board codes. All I had was T023 Current. Everything else was History codes. He was surprised how I went into onboard diagnostics on dash. He said he uses code readers. I told him that is another reason I love these cars. They tell you what is going on most of the time. He was only done two N* Jasper engines and no problems. Thanks again!

[tm8272]

The oil pressure switch inserted into the pan at the right front. I assume that they used the switch from your old engine is that correct? If you had no problem before, doubtful that its caused by the switch now, unless the connections are loose

Did the knock at idle go away?, low oil pressure may have caused the knock also. An upper engine knock would occur first with low oil pressure

Check for the ground at the ABS unit, it must be removed to drop the carriage, I dont think that ground would affect one wheel however, but have it checked, look for pinched or damaged wiring

The knock was heard when I had driven vehicle and it was warmed up as I sat at a red light. When I started it and popped hood and stood in front of car you couldnt hear any knock. So I guess it only happens after car is warmed up and driven a bit. I was not even on interstate, only had driven 12 miles at 35 to 45mph to local mall to Sears Sunday when I first heard the knock at a red light. Was very surprised to say the least. I have not asked if they used the old oil pressure switch but will do so today and post later. Thanks again.

[BodybyFisher]

You may notice that the low oil pressure message will occur when the engine is very hot and in traffic or stop and go

IF in fact you DO have low oil pressure when the engine is hot, that could be the reason why you only heard the knock then

You need to see if you can cause the low oil pressure problem again and listen to the engine at that point

It is of course possible that this is caused by the loose bolt at the crank. The oil pump is behind the crank and turns with the crank, if the crank is loose the pumps output can drop

I have had a problem with my NS where in HOT weather or bumper to bumper where the engine oil get hot, the low oil pressure warning comes on, you need to TRY and make that happen again, if it does after they retorque the crank, you have an internal problem if you ask me

[tm8272]

Not sure why the steering wheel isn't straight - even if the shop removed the engine by dropping the powertrain out the bottom, the only thing that could have been affected is where the struts bolt to the tower in the engine compartment. Steering wheel position is affected by toe alignment.

I know, that is why I asked him if they did an alignment. He did say he had gotten an old code with his code reader on the steering column. I told him I have had this vehicle since 1999 and 46,000 miles and dealer has all service records. Never had an issue with steering wheel or column. I went into on board diagnostics after the flatbed AAA tow truck dropped car. Showed him the codes. Think he was surprised and didnt know what to say. There was a P039 History code for Torque Converter Clutch for transmission that I have had since 60,000 miles. Also the current T023 code which is Right front wheel sensor that I had replaced Sunday. Hopefully now that they have car back in they can go over everything and check connections and alignment once engine low oil pressure is resolved.

[tm8272]

Either you or the installer should notify Jasper of what is happening ASAP. Failure to do so could void your warranty. The best side of doing this is that Jasper has been doing this for a long time with a lot of Northstars, and there is nothing that they have not seen before. They may be able to tell you what you need to do to fix everything right on the phone.

I called Jasper and talked to a guy in the warranty department this morning. He asked for the production code on engine. Said the shop will go over everything and if there is an issue they will be contacted and go from there. I read my warranty and seen where it stated if the vehicle overheats then the warranty is void! That is scarey! The guy asked me if the vehicle overheated. I told him no, I pulled over right away and called AAA to tow it. I didnt get any messages about overheating and the dash displayed 217 for coolant which is normal. I did ask him if they have to pull engine because of internal issue if Jasper will swap the engine out and he said yes. That is good news!

[Cadillac Jim]

T023 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Continuity Fault

You didn't have an overheating problem, you had a low oil pressure event. The overheating clause is boilerplate that is in just about every car or engine warranty. Jasper, like most larger outfits, is more interested in fixing things than gaming the phraseology in any case.

It's good to know that you have the heavyweight experts at Jasper on board. This will end well.

[BodybyFisher]

Not sure why the steering wheel isn't straight - even if the shop removed the engine by dropping the powertrain out the bottom, the only thing that could have been affected is where the struts bolt to the tower in the engine compartment. Steering wheel position is affected by toe alignment.

I know, that is why I asked him if they did an alignment. He did say he had gotten an old code with his code reader on the steering column. I told him I have had this vehicle since 1999 and 46,000 miles and dealer has all service records. Never had an issue with steering wheel or column. I went into on board diagnostics after the flatbed AAA tow truck dropped car. Showed him the codes. Think he was surprised and didnt know what to say. There was a P039 History code for Torque Converter Clutch for transmission that I have had since 60,000 miles. Also the current T023 code which is Right front wheel sensor that I had replaced Sunday. Hopefully now that they have car back in they can go over everything and check connections and alignment once engine low oil pressure is resolved.

It must feel good to go into the diagnostics and do a quick dump and show him you dont need a reader and show him you are knowledgable. forewarned is forearmed.

I am sure that you know that once power is disconnected from the PCM, all codes are erased, so the P039, is a NEW history code, that becomes history. I wanted to make sure that you understand that, but you may already. For some reason that code came up and went to history.

[BodybyFisher]

They can only determine that the engine overheated by a code that is set for it, no other way, unless you drove it with no coolant for 100 miles and warped the heads

[tm8272]

Not sure why the steering wheel isn't straight - even if the shop removed the engine by dropping the powertrain out the bottom, the only thing that could have been affected is where the struts bolt to the tower in the engine compartment. Steering wheel position is affected by toe alignment.

I know, that is why I asked him if they did an alignment. He did say he had gotten an old code with his code reader on the steering column. I told him I have had this vehicle since 1999 and 46,000 miles and dealer has all service records. Never had an issue with steering wheel or column. I went into on board diagnostics after the flatbed AAA tow truck dropped car. Showed him the codes. Think he was surprised and didnt know what to say. There was a P039 History code for Torque Converter Clutch for transmission that I have had since 60,000 miles. Also the current T023 code which is Right front wheel sensor that I had replaced Sunday. Hopefully now that they have car back in they can go over everything and check connections and alignment once engine low oil pressure is resolved.

It must feel good to go into the diagnostics and do a quick dump and show him you dont need a reader and show him you are knowledgable. forewarned is forearmed.

I am sure that you know that once power is disconnected from the PCM, all codes are erased, so the P039, is a NEW history code, that becomes history. I wanted to make sure that you understand that, but you may already. For some reason that code came up and went to history.

Yes it is nice to have codes to help get to the bottom of a problem!

[tm8272]

They can only determine that the engine overheated by a code that is set for it, no other way, unless you drove it with no coolant for 100 miles and warped the heads

That is good to know that, Thanks! I pulled over right away and the coolant temp was 217 so normal which was good. Nice these cars tell you to "Stop Engine" "Low Oil Pressure". Any other car you would of just kept driving it until the motor died or did possible major damage.

[tm8272]

Today around 6pm the shop owner called me with a status update on Jasper engine. It was towed in Monday after I was on the way to shop and got "Stop Engine" and "Low Oil Pressure" warning on dash. I pulled over and had AAA tow it in. He said that they tested the oil pressure and it was 13 psi and that was ok. He called Jasper and talked to them about issue. Jasper wants to send shop another Harmonic Balancer pulley to install and let me drive it for 200 miles and see how things go. The shop owner said there is still a faint knock once warmed up. Jasper told him they would like to try the Harmonic Balancer pulley and see if knock goes away or gets worse after 200 miles. I told him nobody would put 6700 into a new remanufactured engine and expect to be satisfied with a faint knock!! My old engine with 194,000 miles didnt knock! Just bad head gasket and rough idle. I told him I expected the vehicle to run better than old engine and this engine has low power also. He did replace a loose hose clamp that was causing leak of antifreeze. He also fixed the ABS brake light that was on after they replaced the engine. He said there was something loose or unplugged and he would show me when I come to pick up car. I told him I would like to know so I can post it here. Several other people had issues with ABS brake light on after changing engine. I asked him if "traction Disabled" still displayed and he said no! (yeah) The only light on is "service engine soon" because of the P039 code that resets and goes into history. I told him that started at 60,000 miles and I did replace a PROM chip 5 years ago to resolve issue and it did for a while but came back. Car shifts and drives fine so not replacing transmission for code light.

I agreed to have him order the Harmonic Balancer pulley from Jasper and go that route as long as Jasper was going to pay him for his labor and part. He said they would pay him but not sure at what shop hour rate but he would eat the difference if there was any. Jasper did send one that he installed with engine but not sure what happened that would of caused issues of Low power and Low oil pressure. I told him I would not be happy if the knock does not go away after 200 miles. He said well it is under the warranty He said Jasper wanted to try this first to see if knock would go away or if it got worse then have to replace engine. I forgot to ask him about the steering wheel issue that was not straight and Cadillac emblem on wheel was turned toward 10am position. I will call him in the morning and ask him if he was corrected that issue yet or will do so while he waits on pulley from Jasper.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on any of this I appreciate it. I just hope I dont get stuck with an engine that has a "faint" permanent "Knock" in it. That would not be acceptable to me. Thanks again!

[Cadillac Jim]

Whenever you disturb the engine cradle you need to align the front wheels, including centering the steering wheel.

[BodybyFisher]

OK, you said, it said, "TRACTION DISABLED" that is your answer regarding the "low power", when the Traction Control is disabled, the transmission defaults to SECOND gear starts, that alone will make your car feel like a pig, and it will labor pulling away from a stop.

The knock would bother me, especially if they supposedly replace the rod and main bearings. I assume that they mean that the oil pressure is 13 psi at idle?, or is that a higher RPM oil pressure? 13 PSI at anything above idle to me, sounds very low

If they pull your engine again, the guru posted this regarding the P039. If I am not mistaken, the P039 is set when the lock up, in this case a VCC or viscous coupling in this instance in the torque converter slips. If the engine is pulled out, I would take the opportunity to replace the torque converter and all associated seals, see this from the guru on P039

The VCC diagnostic looks at the slippage across the torque converter by comparing the engine RPM and the RPM from the transmission input speed sensor. When the VCC is applied, the slippage should be reduced considerably and stay within certain RPM parameters. If the slippage exceeds those parameters it assumes that the VCC is slippping too much and/or not applying so it sets the code 39. The slip parameters are a bit too stringent for higher mileage/higher slip limit VCC units so the service prom opens up the window or makes the diagnostic test less stringent. If there is a service prom for the code 39 listed for your car it would be a worthwhile investment, especially if you see an occasional code 39.

The VCC unit is a viscous coupling so it is designed to creep or slip slightly to isolate the driveline from torque pertubations that are sensed as chuggle or roughness. A TCC (or more conventional Torque Converter Clutch) is a positive lockup with no slip so it is more susceptable to chuggle, especially in a heavier FWD car. Since the VCC unit creeps slightly under normal operation the diagnostic test is tasked with trying to determine if the creep or slip is TOO much in order to set the code 39. The parameters for the test are opened up in the service prom as mentioned so as to make the code less "hair trigger" in it's operation.

You can use the brake pedal interlock check to disable the VCC at will to see/feel if the VCC is applying and locking up. If you can tell that the VCC is applying, yet the code 39 is setting then likely the service prom will eliminate the false codes. But....possibly the VCC is not applying at all in which case the prom will do nothing and the system needs to be diagnosed and corrected.

The basic operation and mechanisation of the TCC and VCC is exactly the same so in many context the two items are treated as the same as the terms TCC and VCC are often used interchangably. Just realize that when the VCC applies to lock the torque converter it will still allow a little creep in RPM as opposed to a solid lockup like a TCC. At 70 MPH road load the VCC might slip or creep 50-75 RPM instead of a true lockup. Without the VCC you might see 300 RPM slip across the torque converter so disabling it with your left foot lightly on the brake pedal would show a jump of 100-200 RPM or so if it is working correctly.

1) The trans will shift normall into 4 even with code 39. You can check this by manually selecting 3 on the shifter and feel the downshift to confirm that the trans is going to 4. When the code 39 is set, try the trans manual downshift with the lever to 3 and feel it. Proof positive that the trans was in 4 if it downshifts to 3 manually.

2) I believe the code prohibits VCC operation for that ignition cycle if the code sets.

3) You can drive forever with the intermittant VCC with no problems.

4) Nothing will be damaged running without the VCC. In fact, if the trans trips the high trans temp switch the protection mode is to disable the VCC to protect the trans anyway....

5) There are other trans codes that could still set. "Slippage" per se, is not necessairily something that is diagnosed by the PCM anyway, whether or not the VCC is working or not

[BodybyFisher]

As I mentioned previously, the oil pump is driven by the crank, pressure on the pump drive is created by the harmonic balancer. If it was not torqued to spec the pump will slip and oil pressure will not built up to spec.

[BodybyFisher]

I merged your UPDATE with your original "when it rains it pours" so that there is some continuity

[tm8272]

Whenever you disturb the engine cradle you need to align the front wheels, including centering the steering wheel.

I called the Cadillac dealer this morning and asked them about the steering wheel being turned to the 10am position after engine removal and replacement. The dealer told me the exact same thing you said! He said "it happens all the time" the shop just needs to put vehicle on the alignment rack and "Reset the toe". The shop owner acted like it was a pre existing condition with my car and mentioned that he got a code about the steering column from his code reader. Now mind you this older guy runs race cars and has replaced two other Northstar engines supposedly with no problems!! I don't know what to think about him on this issue. I called the dealer to have them fax me all my service records since I have owned vehicle today and plan on faxing them to shop along with a letter stating what you said and the dealer, pretty much the same thing! My wheel was perfectly normal when car went in to shop. It is a learning experience to say the least. Next time I deal with an unknown shop, I will do a total walk around vehicle like they do when you rent one. Make notes and comments about what lights if any are on and if steering wheel is in normal position etc. Have shop owner do a walk around vehicle and inspection with you and sign same document and both keep a copy. Sounds like a lot of work and you hate to be difficult but at least they cant say the wheel was like that and try to charge me for additional work to fix it. They need to take responsibility for mistake and correct problem. I'm trying to be nice here and work with them as a team to help resolve my car issues and understand things can happen. You can get a bad engine etc. They should appreciate my attitude and dont want to see my other nasty side I can take if necessary. I appreciate all the help and comments on the issues I have been having. Thanks

[Cadillac Jim]

Any work on a FWD car in which the engine cradle or the lower motor supports (anything other than the dog bones) are unbolted will require that the toe-in be re-adjusted and the steering wheel centered afterward.

[tm8272]

As I mentioned previously, the oil pump is driven by the crank, pressure on the pump drive is created by the harmonic balancer. If it was not torqued to spec the pump will slip and oil pressure will not built up to spec.

Thanks you for this information!! I have just faxed an article on a TSB lbulletin issues March 1996 Ref# 47-61-32B. It states Lack of Power, Loss Of Oil Pressure(Check Harmonic Balancer Bolt Torque and Flush Oil Pump Relief Valve).

Also states particles from the manufacturing process sticking the oil pump relief valve, not allowing the valve to seal to its seat which does not allow the pump to prime. Also a loose harmonic balancer bolt which will result in the oil pump not turning. Ensure the bolt is tightend to spec. M18 bolt or M14 have different specs. Identify the size of the bolt to determine the proper torque specification.

Here is the link to article: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forum/t-64606.html

[BodybyFisher]

Hmm, loss of power, I wonder why. I hope its not because of low oil pressure causing the bearings to bind or worse seize... that would concern me.

When I spoke to Marshall, they did state that they are concerned as to how the engine is initially started after a rebuild.

I dont think you have the pressure release valve problem, that would cause you not to prime and to have no oil pressure at all

Did you ask them when they had 13 psi?, was that at idle?, what was it at 2000 rpm?, ask them, when I get a chance, Ill check the manual for proper oil pressure

If you have a scanner, can you scan that bulletin and post it?

[BodybyFisher]

OK, oil pressure per manual

11 psi at idle

53 psi at 2,000 rpm

I assume that 13 psi was at idle, ask them what it was at 2000 rpm