Open Wrench Versus 12 Point

[adallak]

The brake hose fittings are probably metric. What looks like 3/8" or 7/16" is likely 10 mm or 11 mm.

If you ever really need to change your tire and drive on the freeway with it, you will be thankful for a real jack that gives you a safe, simple tire change and a full-size tire that gives you worry-free control at speed. OTOH, AAA Plus and a cell phone are always best. The spare is for when that doesn't work, like when the cell phone can't get a connection.

The spare is brand new BUT 15 years old. Not really safe. The jack is solid and strong enough to support a 2 ton boat.

[KHE]

One of the handiest tools for stubborn brake line fittings are vice grips with a notch in one jaw and a protrusion on the other jaw. They are made to grip three sides of a hex nut/bolt.

I replaced my wheel cylinders on my Fleetwood Brougham 2-1/2 years ago - one was beginning to leak and I knew it was a matter of time before the opposite side began to leak. Even though my car is stored for the winter and has not seen road salt, I still had to use an oxy-acetylene torch to heat the connection so I could disconnect the brake line from the wheel cylinders.

[adallak]

Okay, was able to take the wheel cylinder off. Put an aftermarket NAPA replacement and immediately saw a new problem. The flange of the brake port on the OEM part is angled, but the aftermarket one is straight. The brake line is so short and attached to the frame in several locations, that you cannot really bend it much. Bought a Raybestos wheel cylinders and installed the both with no problem. Will bleed the brakes tomorrow. Hopefully, there will be no more surprises.

[adallak]

UPDATE. I have replaced the both wheel cylinders with ones made by Raybestos. It was perfect replacement unlike one from NAPA. After driving forward and back to get the adjusters self adjusted and making some 30 miles, did not notice anything strange - the rims remained cold, etc. Nevertheless, removed later the rear wheels and drums to see how was everything. The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

Mike aka BBF, it probably makes sense to rename this topic as it is all about rear drum brakes.

Thank you.

[gollum69]

remember one thing about drum brakes and cylinders....can't just do one side, MUST do both!!!

[winterset]

I open the bleeder just a little, put a tight fitting rubber hose over the bleeder, and put the other end in a narrow glass jar (like a clean olive jar) with 1 inch of fluid in it. then I pump the brake, and keep filling the Master cylinder. when the glass jar gets dirty, I fill it up with another inch of clean fluid & repeat. when flushing the entire system, use the order: rr,lr,rf,lf. I was surprised your system lasted this long, then I saw you only had ~97k mi

[adallak]

I open the bleeder just a little, put a tight fitting rubber hose over the bleeder, and put the other end in a narrow glass jar (like a clean olive jar) with 1 inch of fluid in it. then I pump the brake, and keep filling the Master cylinder. when the glass jar gets dirty, I fill it up with another inch of clean fluid & repeat. when flushing the entire system, use the order: rr,lr,rf,lf. I was surprised your system lasted this long, then I saw you only had ~97k mi

Yes, the longest line should be flushed first.

[KHE]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

Have you inspected the inside diameter of the drums to see if they are within spec.? Maybe the side with the angled pins had a drum that is too large and the shoes are travelling too far. Just a thought.

[adallak]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

Have you inspected the inside diameter of the drums to see if they are within spec.? Maybe the side with the angled pins had a drum that is too large and the shoes are travelling too far. Just a thought.

Will take off and measure with a caliper (combined with something since my caliper is only 6"). On th eother side, taken into account the mileage I do not believe the drum is out of specs.

On the side note, the surfaces of the pistons in wheel cylinders that engage the plungers are conical. Probably, the design implies also not only parallel relationship between the axis of the plunger of the wheel cylinder bore. I hoped that everything will be self adjusted after a while if I only put everything together correctly , which I believe I did. This is, probably one of those cases, when one needs to see other similar drum brakes and compare, play with components, etc.

[KHE]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

Have you inspected the inside diameter of the drums to see if they are within spec.? Maybe the side with the angled pins had a drum that is too large and the shoes are travelling too far. Just a thought.

Will take off and measure with a caliper (combined with something since my caliper is only 6"). On th eother side, taken into account the mileage I do not believe the drum is out of specs.

On the side note, the surfaces of the pistons in wheel cylinders that engage the plungers are conical. Probably, the design implies also not only parallel relationship between the axis of the plunger of the wheel cylinder bore. I hoped that everything will be self adjusted after a while if I only put everything together correctly , which I believe I did. This is, probably one of those cases, when one needs to see other similar drum brakes and compare, play with components, etc.

It could be normal. The only time I pull off the drums is when I inspect the shoes at tire rotation and to tell you the truth, I never pay attention to the parrallelism of the plungers.

[JohnnyG]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

I don't see any of this as being a major problem, I've inspected drum brakes many times over the years and have also noticed these things without any impact on braking effectiveness or longevity. I'd make sure the the plunger that is off by 5° or so is properly seated into the receptical in the shoe, and that there is not a buildup of paint or a burr that might be keeping the plunger from self centering. Inspect the notch in the plunger for wear and burrs as well. Make sure that the long shoe is toward the rear of the vehicle on both sides. This is a common error. Also make sure that the drums themselves are within the wear limits (inside diameter) for that application. The off center pistons may have a weak return spring on that shoe that is long, replace the springs in pairs if you decide that might be the case. It could also be dragging on the backing plate. A little dab of high temp grease where the shoes rub the backing plate would help there.

[adallak]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

I don't see any of this as being a major problem, I've inspected drum brakes many times over the years and have also noticed these things without any impact on braking effectiveness or longevity. I'd make sure the the plunger that is off by 5° or so is properly seated into the receptical in the shoe, and that there is not a buildup of paint or a burr that might be keeping the plunger from self centering. Inspect the notch in the plunger for wear and burrs as well. Make sure that the long shoe is toward the rear of the vehicle on both sides. This is a common error. Also make sure that the drums themselves are within the wear limits (inside diameter) for that application. The off center pistons may have a weak return spring on that shoe that is long, replace the springs in pairs if you decide that might be the case. It could also be dragging on the backing plate. A little dab of high temp grease where the shoes rub the backing plate would help there.

All good points! I took care of all of them. Cleaned, wire-brushed, greased everything I could think of. Probably when it's time for new shoes, I will replace the hardware as well (they sell kits). The good thing is that the wheel cylinders, bleeders, the fluid are new and when it is time for new shoes it is going to be a piece of cake.

[winterset]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

I don't see any of this as being a major problem, I've inspected drum brakes many times over the years and have also noticed these things without any impact on braking effectiveness or longevity. I'd make sure the the plunger that is off by 5° or so is properly seated into the receptical in the shoe, and that there is not a buildup of paint or a burr that might be keeping the plunger from self centering. Inspect the notch in the plunger for wear and burrs as well. Make sure that the long shoe is toward the rear of the vehicle on both sides. This is a common error. Also make sure that the drums themselves are within the wear limits (inside diameter) for that application. The off center pistons may have a weak return spring on that shoe that is long, replace the springs in pairs if you decide that might be the case. It could also be dragging on the backing plate. A little dab of high temp grease where the shoes rub the backing plate would help there.

All good points! I took care of all of them. Cleaned, wire-brushed, greased everything I could think of. Probably when it's time for new shoes, I will replace the hardware as well (they sell kits). The good thing is that the wheel cylinders, bleeders, the fluid are new and when it is time for new shoes it is going to be a piece of cake.

The entire mechanism inside drum brakes can be shifter. When the drum is on & the brakes are set, everything gets lined up. if you gram the shoes, and push one side up & the other down, you can move them about 1 inch. remember whenthe drumis on, this cannot happen. Personally, the entire drum system seems flimsy to me - but it was proven & it works.

[adallak]

The left plunger of the wheel cylinder on the passenger side is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the cylinder - there is probably some 5-10 degrees angle. The right plunger is fine.

As for the driver side, the both plungers are parallel, but the right plunger extends less than the left one by some 3/8". Should I be concerned, and if so, how can I address those little issues?

I don't see any of this as being a major problem, I've inspected drum brakes many times over the years and have also noticed these things without any impact on braking effectiveness or longevity. I'd make sure the the plunger that is off by 5° or so is properly seated into the receptical in the shoe, and that there is not a buildup of paint or a burr that might be keeping the plunger from self centering. Inspect the notch in the plunger for wear and burrs as well. Make sure that the long shoe is toward the rear of the vehicle on both sides. This is a common error. Also make sure that the drums themselves are within the wear limits (inside diameter) for that application. The off center pistons may have a weak return spring on that shoe that is long, replace the springs in pairs if you decide that might be the case. It could also be dragging on the backing plate. A little dab of high temp grease where the shoes rub the backing plate would help there.

All good points! I took care of all of them. Cleaned, wire-brushed, greased everything I could think of. Probably when it's time for new shoes, I will replace the hardware as well (they sell kits). The good thing is that the wheel cylinders, bleeders, the fluid are new and when it is time for new shoes it is going to be a piece of cake.

The entire mechanism inside drum brakes can be shifter. When the drum is on & the brakes are set, everything gets lined up. if you gram the shoes, and push one side up & the other down, you can move them about 1 inch. remember whenthe drumis on, this cannot happen. Personally, the entire drum system seems flimsy to me - but it was proven & it works.

Exactly - seems flimsy but works.

[JohnnyG]

The movement of the shoe assembly is by design, it is exactly that movement that enables the self adjusters to work every time the brakes are applied while moving backwards. Taking up the majority of the slack by manually turning the adjusters is important during initial assembly, but the final adjustments are done after the brakes are installed and working. Drive the car in reverse slowly, and repeatedly pump the brakes to move the adjusters to their final position. It should be apparent that they are adjusted properly by checking the free play in the emergency brake pedal as it is applied. One final check to ensure that they are not dragging during normal driving and your good to go.

[adallak]

The movement of the shoe assembly is by design, it is exactly that movement that enables the self adjusters to work every time the brakes are applied while moving backwards. Taking up the majority of the slack by manually turning the adjusters is important during initial assembly, but the final adjustments are done after the brakes are installed and working. Drive the car in reverse slowly, and repeatedly pump the brakes to move the adjusters to their final position. It should be apparent that they are adjusted properly by checking the free play in the emergency brake pedal as it is applied. One final check to ensure that they are not dragging during normal driving and your good to go.

I have to back the car up every time I leave the parking lot, so they should be adjusted by now. As for the parking brake, I have not applied it after the brake work. I will try and see. Thanks for the advice.

[adallak]

The parking brake does not hold the car on an incline at all. Is not it supposed to be selfadjustable? I used to pump the parking brake a couple of times on my 91 Seville, looks like parking brakes are different on drum brakes as I can only pump it once.

[Jan Olsson]

The parking brake does not hold the car on an incline at all. Is not it supposed to be selfadjustable? I used to pump the parking brake a couple of times on my 91 Seville, looks like parking brakes are different on drum brakes as I can only pump it once.

It is possible that the self-adjuster doen't engage.

I don't know how your brakes work, just guessing here.

I suppose that you have some kind of arm engaging a toothed wheel every time you apply the brakes?

If the brakes works as they should otherwise, then there must be a problem related only to the self-adjustment. Usually you'll have to turn the toothed wheel with a screwdriver while releasing the arm with another one. When the brakes apply just turn the wheel in the other direction until they release and add another 1/2 turn just to be sure that the brakes won't drag.

After that the self adjustment takes care of the rest.

[adallak]

The parking brake does not hold the car on an incline at all. Is not it supposed to be selfadjustable? I used to pump the parking brake a couple of times on my 91 Seville, looks like parking brakes are different on drum brakes as I can only pump it once.

It is possible that the self-adjuster doen't engage.

I don't know how your brakes work, just guessing here.

I suppose that you have some kind of arm engaging a toothed wheel every time you apply the brakes?

If the brakes works as they should otherwise, then there must be a problem related only to the self-adjustment. Usually you'll have to turn the toothed wheel with a screwdriver while releasing the arm with another one. When the brakes apply just turn the wheel in the other direction until they release and add another 1/2 turn just to be sure that the brakes won't drag.

After that the self adjustment takes care of the rest.

Thank you. I'll try that.

[winterset]

The parking brake does not hold the car on an incline at all. Is not it supposed to be selfadjustable? I used to pump the parking brake a couple of times on my 91 Seville, looks like parking brakes are different on drum brakes as I can only pump it once.

It is possible that the self-adjuster doen't engage.

I don't know how your brakes work, just guessing here.

I suppose that you have some kind of arm engaging a toothed wheel every time you apply the brakes?

If the brakes works as they should otherwise, then there must be a problem related only to the self-adjustment. Usually you'll have to turn the toothed wheel with a screwdriver while releasing the arm with another one. When the brakes apply just turn the wheel in the other direction until they release and add another 1/2 turn just to be sure that the brakes won't drag.

After that the self adjustment takes care of the rest.

Thank you. I'll try that.

Not sure how the Emergency brake on the Fleetwood releases (release-in-drive or push-on-push-off or pull-lever-to-release)

I believe you should be able to use either though the pull-lever-to-release might be tough).

go to a empty parking lot, and go in reverse, but instead of stopping with the brake pedal, use the emergency brake. That'll set those brakes.

also a system not serviced for so long, you need to make sure your emergency brake cable is not sticking.

[adallak]

The parking brake does not hold the car on an incline at all. Is not it supposed to be selfadjustable? I used to pump the parking brake a couple of times on my 91 Seville, looks like parking brakes are different on drum brakes as I can only pump it once.

It is possible that the self-adjuster doen't engage.

I don't know how your brakes work, just guessing here.

I suppose that you have some kind of arm engaging a toothed wheel every time you apply the brakes?

If the brakes works as they should otherwise, then there must be a problem related only to the self-adjustment. Usually you'll have to turn the toothed wheel with a screwdriver while releasing the arm with another one. When the brakes apply just turn the wheel in the other direction until they release and add another 1/2 turn just to be sure that the brakes won't drag.

After that the self adjustment takes care of the rest.

Thank you. I'll try that.

Not sure how the Emergency brake on the Fleetwood releases (release-in-drive or push-on-push-off or pull-lever-to-release)

I believe you should be able to use either though the pull-lever-to-release might be tough).

go to a empty parking lot, and go in reverse, but instead of stopping with the brake pedal, use the emergency brake. That'll set those brakes.

also a system not serviced for so long, you need to make sure your emergency brake cable is not sticking.

The parking brake needs manual adjustment as the liner of the shoes wears out. I overlooked that as it was in a different section of the FSM. Will adjust in a couple of days and will report back.

[JohnnyG]

go to a empty parking lot, and go in reverse, but instead of stopping with the brake pedal, use the emergency brake. That'll set those brakes.

This likely won't work, so be careful and be ready to hit the brake pedal. If the emergency brake won't hold the car while stopped, it is very unlikely that it will stop the car while moving. This might work with disc brakes, but not drums.

Now back to your problem. You really should check for broken emergency brake cables and proper action of them before you start this whole process.

Did you take up all the slack with the adjuster when you assembled the brakes? They should have been extended to the point where the drum would just fit over the shoes as you reinstalled the drum. You then need to jack up one rear wheel at a time, and adjust the slack adjuster with the screwdriver (better yet, use the proper tool, it's easier) until the brake shoes start to drag on the drums. You will be able to hear and feel this action as you turn the drum by hand.

Next, do the brake adustment proceedure in reverse as I described in an earlier post.

Next, check the emergency brake by applying it. If it still does not work, you may have a stretched or broken cable, or a cable that is otherwise disconnected from the system. There is a slack adjustment (usually) on the emergency brake cables as well. Finally make sure that the brake adjusters were installed on the proper side of the car, and pointing the right way, otherwise they will back themselves off as you brake in reverse.

[adallak]

go to a empty parking lot, and go in reverse, but instead of stopping with the brake pedal, use the emergency brake. That'll set those brakes.

This likely won't work, so be careful and be ready to hit the brake pedal. If the emergency brake won't hold the car while stopped, it is very unlikely that it will stop the car while moving. This might work with disc brakes, but not drums.

Now back to your problem. You really should check for broken emergency brake cables and proper action of them before you start this whole process.

Did you take up all the slack with the adjuster when you assembled the brakes? They should have been extended to the point where the drum would just fit over the shoes as you reinstalled the drum. You then need to jack up one rear wheel at a time, and adjust the slack adjuster with the screwdriver (better yet, use the proper tool, it's easier) until the brake shoes start to drag on the drums. You will be able to hear and feel this action as you turn the drum by hand.

Next, do the brake adustment proceedure in reverse as I described in an earlier post.

Next, check the emergency brake by applying it. If it still does not work, you may have a stretched or broken cable, or a cable that is otherwise disconnected from the system. There is a slack adjustment (usually) on the emergency brake cables as well. Finally make sure that the brake adjusters were installed on the proper side of the car, and pointing the right way, otherwise they will back themselves off as you brake in reverse.

Thanks for the reply. I will need to do all the adjustments manually, including an adjustment of the parking brake. I though it would be automatic as it was on disc brakes, but drum brakes are quite different. The FSM describes the procedure in detail. Will report in a few days.It is going to rain here for a few days.

[JohnnyG]

I will need to do all the adjustments manually, including an adjustment of the parking brake. I though it would be automatic as it was on disc brakes, but drum brakes are quite different.

This is called progress, and is why we pay automotive engineers to do their job. I see it as one of the drawbacks of owning an old car, sometimes the learning curve goes in reverse!