KHE Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I have been experiencing this for about a year on a very intermittent basis until a couple of weeks ago. It happens much more frequently now. At first, I thought it was the ignition key as the pellet contacts were worn flush with the plastic insert so I was using a spare key (almost new). I received the error again as I attempted to start the car. I believe that I need to replace the ignition lock cylinder. Can the new cylinder be rekeyed to use my existing keys? I do not want to lose the gold keys. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 KHE, I believe the lock cylinders are the same since the key crossection is same. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 KHE, I believe the lock cylinders are the same since the key crossection is same. The cross section is the same but there are numerous combinations of the teeth patterns. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
careldo Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I was picking up parts one day from the dealer and saw the parts guy matching an old cylinder with a new one so i imagine the dealer can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 You are right, the first thing they will try to offer is a new key (with appropriate resistor) and matching cylinder. But I am sure you can get a matching cylinder if you insist on it. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I need to check my service manual to see if it describes the process to re-key the lock cylinder. I am fairly certain that it is in there. I am also going to inspect the contacts tonight to see if they are worn or just dirty. Maybe I'll luck out and some contact cleaner will solve the problem. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 KHE, BTW your cylinder lock may be fine and the problem is only electrical. There are wires inside the lock which run down (antitheft system). Mine were very close to brake apart (you bend them everytime you turn the key). Take the wheel off and get the lock you will be able to evaluate the wires and the locjk immediately. Do not rush replacing the lock. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I know the lock is OK - the problem lies in the portion that contacts the pellet on the key or the wires as you mentioned. Were your PASS wires broken outside of the lock assembly? I thought there were sliding contacts so the wires were not stressed every time the key was turned. If the wires are broken, I will replace the lock assembly as if the wires are repaired and they do twist as you describe, they will break again right next to the splice in short order. I have the special tools to disassemble the steering column but for some reason, I hate that job... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
careldo Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 don' drop the air bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I thought there were sliding contacts so the wires were not stressed every time the key was turned. If the wires are broken, I will replace the lock assembly as if the wires are repaired and they do twist as you describe, they will break again right next to the splice in short order. I have the special tools to disassemble the steering column but for some reason, I hate that job... Unfortunately there were no slides and the wires twist everytime. They are tiny multiwire wires in teflon isulation. I believe your wires are very bad and very soon you will not be able to start the car at all. Taking out the wheel is not hard but time consuming. You need a puller, another pain was a retaining ring I recall. I do not thing the lock assembly will come with wires. Someone have to address the wire issue anyway. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 I have a steering wheel puller and a lock plate compressor. According to the shop manual, those are the only special tools required. I then need to remove the turn signal switch and then the lock/wires should be visible. How did you repair your wires? My experience is that if they are soldered, they will break again right next to the repair very quickly. I'll take a look at it tonight and post back my findings. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 How did you repair your wires? My experience is that if they are soldered, they will break again right next to the repair very quickly. you are right - it took a few months before they break again, and I knew it. I just refused from antitheft system at all - cut the wires in the bottom of the column and put a right resistor in the circuite. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 How did you repair your wires? My experience is that if they are soldered, they will break again right next to the repair very quickly. you are right - it took a few months before they break again, and I knew it. I just refused from antitheft system at all - cut the wires in the bottom of the column and put a right resistor in the circuite. I just finished removing the lock cylinder from the column. I felt like I was disarming a bomb when I disconnected and removed the airbag. As soon as I removed the turn signal switch, I saw one of the wires was almost broken. Upon removing the ignition switch, the other wire broke at the cylinder... The service manual outlines the re-keying procedure so the next step is to order a new lock cylinder from gmpartsdirect.com and wait. According to the chart in the FAQ section, pellet #8's resistance is 3.01k-ohms but my key measured 2.34/2.35k-ohms. The system must not need the pellet resistance to be very close. I am going to use the old harness and solder a resistor to the leads and keep it in the trunk. That way, in 11 more years, if the problem returns, I won't be stranded. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I just finished removing the lock cylinder from the column. I felt like I was disarming a bomb when I disconnected and removed the airbag. As soon as I removed the turn signal switch, I saw one of the wires was almost broken. Upon removing the ignition switch, the other wire broke at the cylinder... The service manual outlines the re-keying procedure so the next step is to order a new lock cylinder from gmpartsdirect.com and wait. So, I was right suspecting bad wires. Glad you found the problem quickly. You better to CALL the manager at gmpartsdirect.com. The technicians are real idiots. I have had a bad experience dealing with them. Good luck! The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Resistance Value Chart for GM VATs (Lists possible resistance values, including acceptable ranges) " 402 ohms (acceptable range 386-438) " 523 ohms (acceptable range 502-564) " 681 ohms (acceptable range 650-728) " 887 ohms (acceptable range 850-942) " 1130 ohms (acceptable range 1085-1195) " 1470 ohms (acceptable range 1411-1549) " 1870 ohms (acceptable range 1795-1965) " 2370 ohms (acceptable range 2275-2485) " 3010 ohms (acceptable range 2890-3150) " 3740 ohms (acceptable range 3590-3910) " 4750 ohms (acceptable range 4560-4960) " 6040 ohms (acceptable range 5798-6302) " 7500 ohms (acceptable range 7200-7820) " 9530 ohms (acceptable range 9149-9931) " 11800 ohms (acceptable range 11328-12292) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Thanks for the advice....I bet I only had a few starts left before I was stranded... I inspected the contacts through the switch and they looked fine. I then compared them to my '96 Seville and both contacts looked identical so I decided to take it apart for further inspection. Once the turn signal switch was out of the way, the problem was obvious. I wish the turn signal switch had longer wires as it was tough to get enough slack to clear the steering shaft. I obtained the part no. from my local dealer as well as Brasingtons (gmotors.com). The local dealer's price is $65 for the cylinder. GMPartsdirect's price is $35 delivered to my door.... I am going to see if the local dealer could do better on their price - it doesn't hurt to ask. It should only take an hour to re-assemble everything. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 I obtained the part no. from my local dealer as well as Brasingtons (gmotors.com). The local dealer's price is $65 for the cylinder. GMPartsdirect's price is $35 delivered to my door.... I am going to see if the local dealer could do better on their price - it doesn't hurt to ask. Cool. IN THIS CASE I would go with the stealership if they offer some discount. Chances are the .com will ship wrong lock cylinder. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 ...stealership...I like that! Good one adallak! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 ...stealership...I like that! Good one adallak! yep, that's what we all call them... I was told there were good ones too, but I never saw one The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 My sister just called to tell me her water pump went out on her mini-van, "stealership" told her she needed a water pump, thermostat and timing belt...and it would be around $1000.00 I told her she was nuts to take it there in the 1st place and she replied...I trust the dealer & atleast I get a warranty. To each their own...can't help the helpless! Makes me sad though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 If the waterpump is driven off the timing belt (which it sounds like it is) that price may not be as bad as you think. If the water pump is bad and the mileage is up there, I can see their logic in replacing the timing belt as well. Is it a foreign van? Typically, they like to use timing belts. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 If the waterpump is driven off the timing belt (which it sounds like it is) that price may not be as bad as you think. If the water pump is bad and the mileage is up there, I can see their logic in replacing the timing belt as well. Is it a foreign van? Typically, they like to use timing belts. I hate cars with timing belts. The amount of money you save in gas mileage is quickly lost when you have to replace that darn thing! If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 It's a '94 Mercury Villager I believe. I don't see why the timing belt replacement would add to the cost, besides the cost of the belt, since it has to come off anyways to replace the water pump. $1000.00 still seems high to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Because they need to remove the front cover of the engine to remoive the belt. Lots of labor involved. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 I installed the new lock cylinder last night. I had it re-keyed to match my existing keys. No more "PASS KEY FAULT" lights and no-starts for at least another 11 years... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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