93SixtySpecial Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hello all! Here is the scoop: I have a 1999 Cadillac Deville with 232,000 very well taken care of highway miles. Every oil change, maintenance item and part replaced has been documented since day one. I have a shudder that can occur between around 30 all the way to 65 (haven't gone any faster so could be further). It only occurs on light accelaration and going up hills. I was hoping at first that it would be something igntion related, but in the back of my mind I thought that it would be something much worse with that many miles. I ruled out plugs and wires because they had been done 1000 miles and 1 month ago. The next thing I thought was coils...until I tested more. When the shudder occured, I kept the exact same speed to keep it shuddering and I tapped my brake, just to get the torque converter to unlock. BOOM gone. Then it would repeat and I could make it stop again. I checked the fluid and even pulled some out with a turkey baster and put it in a bottle. It is pretty dark and smells what I would think would be burnt. I have ZERO codes (I know, can you believe it?), so that isn't much help. I am 99% sure it's my torque converter though. Oh and I forgot to mention it only does it when the tranny starts to get warm. So, with limited money, what are my options? 1. I know a whole tranny rebuild from a local shop is about $2000. I was going to ask how much just to throw in a torque converter (and the lock-up solenoid because I have seen way too many P0741 codes in my day). Because I can't afford the full $2000. 2. I might have enough money to buy a rebuild, but the problem is there is none around here and with shipping, I'd be better off having a shop rebuild it! Plus, then I'd have to have them put it in. 3. I heard good things about that Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fixx, everyone that uses it swears that it works. I tried it, nothing worse, nothing better. So either it's too far gone or it just doesn't work with Cadillac's awesome trannys (not sarcastic, I love the 4T80) 4. I have heard that dropping the pan and then filling it up with Dexron VI could possibly help. Think that would work? The last trans tune was done about 22,000 miles ago. 5. I have also heard of people taking off their cooler line and pumping out all the old fluid while dumping in new stuff at the same time. Could I try that and exchange everything for Dexron VI? Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought I'd bring everyone up to speed as quickly as possible Thanks for the help in advance!! -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 ....The next thing I thought was coils...until I tested more. When the shudder occured, I kept the exact same speed to keep it shuddering and I tapped my brake, just to get the torque converter to unlock. BOOM gone..... Problem identified!! 5. I have also heard of people taking off their cooler line and pumping out all the old fluid while dumping in new stuff at the same time. Could I try that and exchange everything for Dexron VI? That would be the next step I would take. And it's not necessary to "dump in new stuff at the same time". Let the transmission pump the fluid out (at idle) and shut the engine off the instant the flow stops. If your cooler line connection at the radiator is a quick-disconnect type, you will have to shade-tree a brass adapter to thread into the radiator so you can attach a length of hose. All you have to lose is the price of a case of Dexron VI. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Really? That won't hurt the pump? Which line do I disconnect? I haven't taken a look at where the lines are at yet. What do you mean by "shade-tree"? Do you think I should drop the pan to replace the filters or leave it be since it was done only a short time ago? I've heard that people who do a complete flush like this end up with more problems. Is this true or is it just a coincidence? What's the difference between Dexron VI and Dexron III? Any particular brand I should use? Oh an how many quarts should I buy? It says 15 in the manual, is that all I will need? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlaValentine Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Really? That won't hurt the pump? Which line do I disconnect? I haven't taken a look at where the lines are at yet. What do you mean by "shade-tree"? Do you think I should drop the pan to replace the filters or leave it be since it was done only a short time ago? I've heard that people who do a complete flush like this end up with more problems. Is this true or is it just a coincidence? What's the difference between Dexron VI and Dexron III? Any particular brand I should use? I have had a similar problem before. Here is the link to my thread on it. On pages 6 & 7 you will see where I was advised as to how to go about pumping the fluid out and about Dexron. Hope it helps. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=26569&st=75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoupeDTS Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Really? That won't hurt the pump? Which line do I disconnect? I haven't taken a look at where the lines are at yet. What do you mean by "shade-tree"? Do you think I should drop the pan to replace the filters or leave it be since it was done only a short time ago? I've heard that people who do a complete flush like this end up with more problems. Is this true or is it just a coincidence? What's the difference between Dexron VI and Dexron III? Any particular brand I should use? My fleetwood does the same thing around the shifting speeds if you try to keep it around a certain mph. Its not cool but ill live with it. Its a 4l60e. For my 2000 DTS I was quoted 1900 just to change the solenoid lock up thing and a new converter and some other thing in the tranny. So a full rebuild for 2000, tho expensive, is a good deal... I also have never heard anything good about full tranny flushes. Sounds like people say your tranny runs good with the fluid thats in it and if you do a full flush that changes the viscosity or something in it then some seals or parts will fail. Especially on cars with high mileage. But a jiffy lube would push you to do one no matter what... When your lockup solenoid REALLY goes out you will give it gas and it wont catch and you may not be able to get into 4th gear or it will act horrible once you do. Could it just be the torque converter? * 1966 Deville Convertible * 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black * 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Really? That won't hurt the pump? Not a bit if you shut the engine off the instant the fluid stops flowing. Which line do I disconnect? Top line. What do you mean by "shade-tree"? A temporary piece of engineering or a work-around. Do you think I should drop the pan to replace the filters or leave it be since it was done only a short time ago? I would not touch the pan. And the "filter" you would be accessing is only a section of fine mesh screen. I haven't dropped a transmission pan in over 30 years. I've heard that people who do a complete flush like this end up with more problems. What you are likely hearing about is "power flushing" that is offered by quick oil change places and some dealers. Fluid under pressure controlled by unqualified personnel is a bad combination. You will not be power flushing; all you are doing is pumping the transmission dry and refilling. What's the difference between Dexron VI and Dexron III? Dexron VI is synthetic. Any particular brand I should use? All bottlers of Dexron VI have to meet the same GM specifications. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Just found this link: http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/2009/05/dexron-vi.html Thats crazy how much better it is! -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Alright thank you everybody for the advice. I'm going to do the pump dry/refill. I hope it works! Even for the time being, if I have to do this every 10,000 miles, I wouldn't care. As long as it works! Currently everyone is out of Dexron VI except Oreilly Auto and it's $6.99 a quart. So I'm going to wait until Walmart gets some more in and then try it. Wish me luck! PS: I will post my results when I finish! -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Well, here is the news: 1. I hooked up my little system so I could stand by the driver's door and shut it off while I watched the hose. 2. I started it up in neutral and let it pump out the fluid. It was pretty slow. It only pumped out about 7-8 quarts and then started spitting air so I shut it off. 3. I didn't think that was very much so I decided to refill with Dexron VI and pump a little more, just to make sure I got a lot of the fluid out. I started refilling and it only took 6.5 quarts to fill it up. 4. I pumped out another 4 quarts and topped off the fluid. 5. I went out on a test drive and it seemed to shift nicer...however...the shudder was still there. I think it may be slightly better, but it is still there. So now I'm looking at replacing goodies. I guess I was wrong on prices. Here are the prices on two shops that I called: Transmission Shop #1: Torque Converter Replacement with TCC Solenoid (I wanted to have them replace that while it was out) = $1,100 Complete Rebuild = $3500 Transmission Shop #2: Said that just replacing the torque converter would not fix it and I'd have to replace other electronics plus the torque converter - $2800 Complete Rebuild = $4500 Low mileage used installed = $2200 So I guess the only thing I'd be able to afford would be the torque converter replacement from the first shop. I trust that guy more anyway. But what was the other guy talking about with replacing other things? Was he feeding me crap or would replacing the torque converter really not fix it? Is my pump bad maybe? Not giving me enough pressure to lock-up the torque converter fully? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 How old are your plugs and wires? I'm betting that is your problem. This sound familiar? http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/25119-stutter-engine-trans.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 Hey Ranger, They are less than a month old with only 1000 miles on them. However, I didn't put them in, the previous owner did. He was very consistent with sticking with AC Delco parts so everything is OEM. I checked the wires for problems and they all seemed fine. I checked the connections on the coils and on the plugs and they all seemed fine. It just really doesn't feel like a miss though. It's almost too smooth, like a rocking motion. I was going to mention again that when I brake to disengage the torque converter, it quits. But, I guess if I'm running lower RPM with the TC locked, the igntion problem could show itself then... Could it still be an igntion problem?? Maybe...just maybe...that when the TC locks up that is when I notice the shudder which is in-fact caused by an igntion problem due to the strain on the igntion system under light load. I actually read that thread before I posted this one. The coils do look original. I suppose I could go buy one coil from O'Reilly's and swap out each one and see if it goes away. But then what if I have two bad coils...or three? Should I check all the plugs for cracking? I really can't and don't want to pay for a different torque converter. -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 Oh my gosh, I completely forgot to mention one thing. Before I did my fluid exchange, yesterday I was driving around after I had put that Instant Shudder Fixx in the transmission. Everything was the same until it seemed to stop, I couldn't get it to shudder anymore. I was ecstatic! Then I decided to pull the codes (I don't know what came over me) and it said "P0741 CURRENT" which we all know what that means. I'm guessing it was locking and unlocking enough to throw a code at that time and stop it all together. I reset the codes and it started shuddering again immediately after that. The code has not come back since. Does this pretty much guarantee that it's a torque converter problem? Or could it still be ignition screwing with me? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 I decided to check out the wires. I went out on a dark road and got my spray bottle handy. I layered the wires and coils with water and I noticed extremely faint arcing between the injector wires and the spark plugs wires and the valve covers and the wires. I don't know if this is normal because every single wire was doing it and it was extremely faint and they were doing it all up and down the wires. The wires are less than 2 months old and almost 2000 miles on them, same with the spark plugs. I don't really want to spend money on wires or plugs and then have it be something else and vice versa with the torque converter. What should I do? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlaValentine Posted April 13, 2010 Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 When the new wires were installed, were they routed EXACTLY the way they are supposed to be? There are retaining brackets to keep them separated from each other and the fuel injector wires so that they don't interfere with each other. It's also possible to have gotten a bad set of wires...are you sure they are OEM ACDelco wires? Mine say AC Delco on them, so I would imagine others would as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2010 When the new wires were installed, were they routed EXACTLY the way they are supposed to be? There are retaining brackets to keep them separated from each other and the fuel injector wires so that they don't interfere with each other. It's also possible to have gotten a bad set of wires...are you sure they are OEM ACDelco wires? Mine say AC Delco on them, so I would imagine others would as well. Yep, I checked that all of them were routed in those brackets. The wires say AC Delco Premium, I would assume they are OEM. Can a transmission shop hook up a computer and see if the torque converter is actually shuddering (unlocking, locking, unlocking and so on)? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 Okay, I have another question. What parameters set a P0741 code? If a torque converter is failing mechanically and can not lock-up, will it set the code? Or is it only if it is an electrical issue (TCC lock-up solenoid)? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 I think you can safely rule out the plugs and wires and I think what you saw with the spray bottle was normal. I'd borrow a coil from another car if you have access to one and try swapping them to rule the coils out before jumping to the TCC solenoid. Unlikely to have 2 or 3 go at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 Okay, I have another question. What parameters set a P0741 code? If a torque converter is failing mechanically and can not lock-up, will it set the code? Or is it only if it is an electrical issue (TCC lock-up solenoid)? DTC's are only set by things that can be monitored electronically like a solenoid. The TC is mechanical so it cannot be monitored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 I think you can safely rule out the plugs and wires and I think what you saw with the spray bottle was normal. I'd borrow a coil from another car if you have access to one and try swapping them to rule the coils out before jumping to the TCC solenoid. Unlikely to have 2 or 3 go at once. Actually, I was jumping to the TC itself. Do you think it could be the solenoid? Wouldn't that throw a constant code? I only got the code once since I bought it and it hasn't come on since. I do not have access to a coil considering my 93 does not have coils. I will purchase one from Oreilly's for $25 to swap. It's worth the money if it fixes it. -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 A junk yard coil would be cheaper. Your problem does not sound like a TCC solenoid to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 A junk yard coil would be cheaper. Your problem does not sound like a TCC solenoid to me. I just purchased one for $23. I figured it is quicker since everyone is closed and I KNOW this one will work. I don't believe it is a TCC solenoid either, but I think it could be a mechanical breakdown of the torque converter. I did some more testing and here is what I came up with: You know that feeling when you're running out of gas and you get that bobing motion in your car right before it dies? That's what my problem feels like. I tested a couple of speeds and gears to see when it happens. 1. It happened when I was accelarating between 33-37 MPH. 2. It happened when climbing a hill between 40-50 MPH. 3. It happened accelarating around 40. 4. It happened IN 3RD GEAR (physically moving the selector to 3rd) climbing a hill between the speeds of 28-40 MPH. Now here is the weird part. I tapped my brakes in the last test (#4) and the RPMs clearly jumped (you could see it on the tach and hear the engine) and the shuddering/bobing quit. Since when is there torque converter lock-up in that low of speed and in 3rd? I mean, what else would cause the engine speed to increase when the brakes are tapped? I found it odd... I'm still going to work on igntion right now. I'm going to take each coil and switch it. Then I'm going to pull the plugs and check for any carbon cracking. One time I tightened a spark plug too much and cracked the insulation. I'm hoping that is what the previous shop did when they put them in. It kind of sounds like a questionable shop. -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 About the torque converter lockup... This is for my car..yours may be different... Mine will lock up in 3rd gear or 4th gear. At really light throttle, it will lockup as slow as 36 mph. In more normal / average driving... if I am not accelerating very fast... it will lockup around 40 to 42 mph. Harder acceleration will cause it to lock at progressively higher speeds... depending on throttle position, of course. If I start up a hill at 40...and if I have to give it a little gas...it will unlock until I ease off the gas or the car accelerates to a faster speed. Just giving another reference point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 About the torque converter lockup... This is for my car..yours may be different... Mine will lock up in 3rd gear or 4th gear. At really light throttle, it will lockup as slow as 36 mph. In more normal / average driving... if I am not accelerating very fast... it will lockup around 40 to 42 mph. Harder acceleration will cause it to lock at progressively higher speeds... depending on throttle position, of course. If I start up a hill at 40...and if I have to give it a little gas...it will unlock until I ease off the gas or the car accelerates to a faster speed. Just giving another reference point. Interesting information! Thanks Jim! I'm really starting to lean towards igntion. Because, honestly, when have you ever heard of a torque converter failing on a 4T80? And I know for a fact the miles are all highway. -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93SixtySpecial Posted April 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 Well, I swapped out all the coils, one by one, with the new coil and the problem persisted. I pulled one of the plugs to see what brand it was and what kind of shape it was in. It was AC Delco and it looked brand new. Still had the platnium tip and everything. I also unplugged the EGR and tested. I figured if there isn't EGR blowing in there and it's an igntion problem, it should change. It didn't change a bit. Or maybe the EGR is stuck open... Now I'm starting to get worried that it is a mechanical failure of the torque converter again. That does seem about my luck. I guess I can't really do anything further to test it. Unless someone else has some ideas? -Dusty- 2006 Cadillac DTS Glacier Gold Tri-Coat with 175,000 miles 1993 Cadillac Sixty Special Gold Mist with 185,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted April 14, 2010 Report Share Posted April 14, 2010 Well, I swapped out all the coils, one by one, with the new coil and the problem persisted. I pulled one of the plugs to see what brand it was and what kind of shape it was in. It was AC Delco and it looked brand new. Still had the platnium tip and everything. I also unplugged the EGR and tested. I figured if there isn't EGR blowing in there and it's an igntion problem, it should change. It didn't change a bit. Or maybe the EGR is stuck open... Now I'm starting to get worried that it is a mechanical failure of the torque converter again. That does seem about my luck. I guess I can't really do anything further to test it. Unless someone else has some ideas? I have a couple of questions... How does it run when you get on it pretty good... say you are running along about 40 and "STAND ON IT" Does the transmission kick down to a lower gear and does it then accelerate smoothly... with no bucking and jerking? If the answer to that is yes... When you are on the highway at 60 / 70 Mph... just cruising along...is it smooth at that speed? Or is it only at around 40 to 45 mph that it is acting up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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