SteveK Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 I have a '97 DeVille base model. I have posted on my problem before and have received very good advice. Unfortunately nothing so far has worked. The problem is this. After my car sits for more than ten minutes it takes a good five seconds of cranking to get it started. It doesn't matter if the engine is warm or cold. At first I was directed to leaky fuel injectors (causing a flooding condition). I have checked and the injectors do not leak. I replaced the fuel pressure regulator, had the entire fuel system flushed and the injectors cleaned. I was then directed to a bad fuel pump. I was only getting around 40#'s when it should be 48-55#'s. Well I just replaced the fuel pump along with a new inline fuel filter. Still no change; the hard starting remains. Occasionally I get a split second of what seems to be no fuel while driving or hesitation. Almost like the fuel was cutting out, just for a second. My mileage sucks. I get around 12mpg in the city and 16 to 18 on the highway. I've changed the plugs, wires, new battery, oil and cleaned just about anything I get take off and clean. I'm really at a loss. I throw myself on the mercy and experience of the group. I mention one more thing. I have read in different postings of this group that an aftermarket radio can play heck with the "brain" of this car. The previous owner put in a high quality after market radio but after market none the less. Could this be a problem? Sincerely, Steve Keitel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlaValentine Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 If the car was starting and running fine and then developed this problem suddenly, I doubt the stereo has anything to do with it. That would have most likely caused problems right after it was installed. Have you checked for diagnostic codes? It seems like the crankshaft position sensor could be a likely culprit. If one of them is bad it will cause hard starting or no starting at all, and will often cause stumbling, hesitation, and sometimes stalling while driving, particularly during acceleration. A bad crankshaft position sensor will normally set a code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 A CKP sensor should not affect mileage though and '97's where not known for them (not saying that they are incapable of failure). These symptoms just don't sound like CKP sensors to me. No MAP or MAF sensor codes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 I didnt see mention of codes, have you checked for codes? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlaValentine Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 A CKP sensor should not affect mileage though and '97's where not known for them (not saying that they are incapable of failure). These symptoms just don't sound like CKP sensors to me. No MAP or MAF sensor codes? I agree a CKP shouldn't affect mileage. I just recall that on a car I worked on a couple months ago (2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue. Not a Caddy I know, but still.) these were the EXACT same symptoms (except the mileage) it was having for about a month before it finally wouldn't start one day, and the SES light came on with a code for the CKP. It never set a code until that day. After it was replaced, all of the symptoms went away. That's why I said it COULD be a likely candidate, though that doesn't mean it IS. As for it not being a common problem on the 97, that I wasn't aware of. I was basing this on my general car knowledge and past experience. I think checking the DTC's is definitely the best place to start. Given the symptoms described, I doubt that there would be no codes. MAP and MAF sound like good possibilities too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 As others have said, check the codes to see if they may provide a clue to the problem area. Also, what is the fuel pressure while cranking the engine? When you changed the fuel pump, was it a pump only or the entire sending unit? If it was just the pump only, there may be a split in the line between the pickup and the pump. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 As for it not being a common problem on the 97, that I wasn't aware of. Carla, the reason I said that is because GM had a bad supplier (Siemens in Mexico) and virtually all 2000- early '03's had bad CKP sensors. They switch to Denso in Japan and the problen seemed to go away. The problem was almost unheard of before 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlaValentine Posted March 21, 2010 Report Share Posted March 21, 2010 As for it not being a common problem on the 97, that I wasn't aware of. Carla, the reason I said that is because GM had a bad supplier (Siemens in Mexico) and virtually all 2000- early '03's had bad CKP sensors. They switch to Denso in Japan and the problen seemed to go away. The problem was almost unheard of before 2000. Ahhh. Gotcha. Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I just had the codes checked and I have the following: P0171B P0174B P0151 I also checked and I am getting spark to the plugs. I also checked the fuel pressure now that I just got the fuel pump and inline filter replaced. It reads 46 pounds. My mechanic recommends a smoke test to check for vacuum leaks. This will be performed later this week unless anyone can come up with an answer before that. Thanks in advance! Steve Keitel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 P0171B........Lean Bank 1 P0174B........Lean Bank 2 P0151.........O2 Sensor, Voltage Low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I figure the O2 one means I need a new O2 sensor unit but what about the lean banks? What causes them, are they the cause of my problem and how do I fix them? Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I figure the O2 one means I need a new O2 sensor unit but what about the lean banks? What causes them, are they the cause of my problem and how do I fix them? Thanks, Steve A couple of the first things I would do, is check to make sure that the intake is tight. Check the plenum between the throttle body and the intake and check all the vacuum hoses you can get to. The low voltage on the o2 sensor could be a frayed or burnt wire. It "COULD" be the o2 sensor, but I would check all wiring and connections first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I don't believe there is a plenum in 1997 but you have a vacuum leak that is affecting both banks, check the TB tightness and seal to the intake, the brake booster hose, intake bolt torque and check it for cracks and all vacuum hoses. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 If all that checks out OK, then check the manifold over pressurization valve in the tunnel behind the P/S pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Bad news. My mechanic just performed a smoke test to find the vaccuum leak. He said there is a big leak in the intake manifold. Also, just yesterday my "check coolant level" warning message came on. Since the coolant isn't leaking out of the engine I can only assume it is leaking inside. Anyway, the mechanic looked up the part(s) and said that the intake comes as a kit with the injectors and the rail. Is this correct? Do I have to buy a kit for $650.00 or can I just buy the manifold? I love my car but it is becoming a real money pit. I would appreciate any advice that would save me some money. Thanks, Steve Keitel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Bad news. My mechanic just performed a smoke test to find the vaccuum leak. He said there is a big leak in the intake manifold. Also, just yesterday my "check coolant level" warning message came on. Since the coolant isn't leaking out of the engine I can only assume it is leaking inside. Anyway, the mechanic looked up the part(s) and said that the intake comes as a kit with the injectors and the rail. Is this correct? Do I have to buy a kit for $650.00 or can I just buy the manifold? I love my car but it is becoming a real money pit. I would appreciate any advice that would save me some money. Thanks, Steve Keitel Where is this leak and why do you have to replace the manifold? I see no reason you can't buy a manifold alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Do not assume ANYTHING about the coolant usage at this point. As far as the vacuum leak at the intake manifold goes - what is leaking at the intake manigold? The gaskets between the intake manifold and the heads? If so, that is a very easy fix. If the intake manifold is cracked, I'd look at buying a used one and transferring the existing fuel rail to the new "used" manifold before I'd pay $600 for a new one. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 I agree, where is the leak, is it cracked or is it the intake manifold gaskets or backfire port... Someone is BSing someone.... Each injector is about $55 so 8 injectors alone would be $440, just for the injectors not including the rail that is $230 I would get more info from him on what is wrong and check scrap yards for used intakes, www.rockauto.com does not sell intakes for some reason, but I would price them if I were you, I believe that intake manifolds are very expensive Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2010 here's an update on he hard starting problem. After thousands of dollars and hours and hours of repairs it wound up being leaky fuel injectors after all. I originally tested for leaky valves but evidently did not leave them disconnected long enough to show a leak. Anyway, after repairing a large vacuum leak and replacing all the injectors it starts like a champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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