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Northstars commonly have bad "midseal"?


CoupeDTS

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OK i go to try to trade in my 00 DTS today and we almost reach a deal then they tell me they see oil on the bottom of the engine and that means the "midseal" is bad. My car doesnt leak a drop of oil and most every car has an oily bottom from overspills on oil changes, overspill of any other fluid and from oil filters that naturally leak a little bit. Im not an idiot so I had them explain this "midseal" because I have never heard of it. They tried googling it for me and NOTHING came up. The put on a play for me calling a "cadillac mechanic" and he told me the most common problem with northstars before 2002 was the midseal and its 3-4k to fix. I said where is the midseal, they said its between the tranny and engine, so I said you mean the rear main seal? He said no because where the tranny is at its a mid seal. They told me 3/4 of northstars have this problem. Yet Ive never heard of it and when they googled it nothing came up. Thats pretty funny.

So they arent wanting to give me as much for my car because they say the midseal is bad. Well I understand them not wanting to trade for a 00 DTS because the cars DO have some costly repair bills and they are taking a chance but why make something up? My car is super clean, Ive always done all the repairs and maintenance, ive had it for 5 years and it means alot to me, when they told me that BS that it aint worth anything I got PISSED.

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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So can I get some credible replys from "cadillac experts" that can rebutt this?

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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Trying to get full value from a Dealer for your trade-in is a losing proposition. Your best chance to get full value for your Cadillac is a private sale.

Here is the repair procedure for the case-half seal: http://www.caddyinfo.com/casehalf.htm

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube

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I've traded possibly 40 cars over the years, and have sold perhaps 20 or so privately.

Not once, with the exception being a classic 1971 Cutlass Convertible, has any dealer put my trade on a hoist.

On most occasions, the car isn't even driven.

The dealer will basically check the lowest auction prices to lowball you, and pull a carfax to check for accident repair history.

That's it.

Your dealer hoisted your car looking for evidence to support his trade evaluation.

If he hadn't noticed some oil, it would've been something else.

Take your business elsewhere ... others will lowball you based on low auction prices, but that's better than this guy.

Bruce has the best advice ... sell private.

You have a pretty car with obvious pride of ownership.

I have the best success using Kijiji, with a long, detailed description of ownership history, and a photobucket link to high res photos.

I sold two cars this way in the spring ... priced aggressively, they sold within 30 minutes of the listing going live.

Good Luck.

1989 FWD Fleetwood, Silver

1995 STS Crimson Pearl on Black leather

1997 STS Diamond White

1999 STS Crimson Pearl

2001 STS Silver

2003 STS, Crimson Pearl

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Nearly all cars with cast oil pans have some seepage through the gaskets when they get old. They all have wet oil pans. What you are seeing is a used-car-salesman trick. There is nothing wrong with your car and they know it. Tell them so, and if the problem doesn't go away, go elsewhere.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Nearly all cars with cast oil pans have some seepage through the gaskets when they get old. They all have wet oil pans. What you are seeing is a used-car-salesman trick. There is nothing wrong with your car and they know it. Tell them so, and if the problem doesn't go away, go elsewhere.

thats exactly what i was thinking. Unfortunately they have a car I want so its hard to move down the road, but they pissed me off so bad with all this I dont even want to do business with them.

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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They are referring to the case half seal, its the seal between the upper and lower case halves, it is split at the crank centerline

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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They are referring to the case half seal, its the seal between the upper and lower case halves, it is split at the crank centerline

yea i seen the pictures of the fix. Even so I dont leak a drop on the garage floor so its not a "problem" needing fixed.

So if this seal does slightly leak on most all northstars then when is it a necessary fix? Do they eventually leak real bad?

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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yea i seen the pictures of the fix. Even so I dont leak a drop on the garage floor so its not a "problem" needing fixed.

My '98 half case seal leak has progressed to the point where oil drips are obvious on the garage floor. Or at least on the cardboard I place on the floor under the crankcase.

So if this seal does slightly leak on most all northstars then when is it a necessary fix? Do they eventually leak real bad?

I don't feel like it is ever a "necessary" fix. I can buy gallons of oil for far less than the cost of the seal repair.

Some owners might think mine leaks "real bad"; but I don't.

My crankcase began showing signs of half case seal leakage at about 80,000 miles. And that was 110,000 miles ago!.

Find another Cadillac you can live with at another dealer.

Jim

Drive your car.

Use your cell phone.

CHOOSE ONE !

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yea i seen the pictures of the fix. Even so I dont leak a drop on the garage floor so its not a "problem" needing fixed.

My '98 half case seal leak has progressed to the point where oil drips are obvious on the garage floor. Or at least on the cardboard I place on the floor under the crankcase.

So if this seal does slightly leak on most all northstars then when is it a necessary fix? Do they eventually leak real bad?

I don't feel like it is ever a "necessary" fix. I can buy gallons of oil for far less than the cost of the seal repair.

Some owners might think mine leaks "real bad"; but I don't.

My crankcase began showing signs of half case seal leakage at about 80,000 miles. And that was 110,000 miles ago!.

Find another Cadillac you can live with at another dealer.

sidenote: nice pic of ur caddy in the snow :D

I got a couple from our christmas blizzard

1010115a.jpg

1010135ex.jpg

1010166u.jpg

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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They are referring to the case half seal, its the seal between the upper and lower case halves, it is split at the crank centerline

yea i seen the pictures of the fix. Even so I dont leak a drop on the garage floor so its not a "problem" needing fixed.

So if this seal does slightly leak on most all northstars then when is it a necessary fix? Do they eventually leak real bad?

That is interesting. Did you say your pan was wet?, but you dont have any leaks on the floor. Mine leaks like a sieve, the driveway is really wet. After speaking to KHE this week, I am not sure if its the case half seal or the oil manifold.

They probably saw the bottom wet and just assumed it was the case half. The problem for them is that if the bottom is wet it can be hard for them to sell it

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Just thinking out loud...

Wear some old clothes...take it to the car wash.

Use the engine cleaner setting and soak all the areas under it that have oil on them.

Then use the jigh pressure soap setting and wash it real good.

just a random thought...

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Any used car dealer will simply wash your car and put it out on the lot. My thinking is that if these guys are hard-nose BSing you then the "car you really want" that they present to you may not, under the skin -- and the BS -- be a car you really want.

When you are done washing your car, find the car you *really* want on the internet, somewhere else besides the snakes, and drive over and talk turkey.

Whoever you buy from, even your mother, always look at a CarFAX before you close the deal.

Also, check the Kelly Blue Book price of the car and don't pay more than it's worth:

Just one more thing, as Columbo would say when he had a zinger, if they don't offer a written warranty of 90 days or more, pay the "Private Party Value" KBB price, not the "Suggested Retail Value." If they do offer a warranty, check them out on the local Better Business Bureau to make sure that they do honor their warranties before you buy.

It's a jungle out there, and in point of fact there are no rules. Caveat Emptor.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Bottom of my car was wet because it was RAINING yesterday!! Theyre are just so full of it. I expect a call from them in the next couple days so well see.

And oil under your car might not even be oil, they just glanced. I spilled steering fluid all over a few days earlier and your oil filter always leaks a tiny bit (well mine does) so again they are just full of bs!!

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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The half case leak was a bigger problem on the early Northstars. You leak might even be an oil filter adapter seal. Simple and cheap fix, but as mentioned, they are just looking for a reason to low ball you. I GUARANTEE you that they are not going to repair it before selling it. I think the seal was redesigned by 2000. Mine is dry as the desert.

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The half case leak was a bigger problem on the early Northstars. You leak might even be an oil filter adapter seal. Simple and cheap fix, but as mentioned, they are just looking for a reason to low ball you. I GUARANTEE you that they are not going to repair it before selling it. I think the seal was redesigned by 2000. Mine is dry as the desert.

Of course they won't. They'll just clean it up to make it look all nicey nice, then charge someone more than double what they "paid" for it.

I agree with Jim. Wash it up real good, and take it somewhere else. Find someone who will give you at least CLOSE to what it's worth.

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I learned a loooong tima ago that when a bad business deal goes down, there is a critical, make-or-break point where the mark says "yes." Just say NO when you see that time. It's easy to recognize, by the expectant smiles of everyone present who has something to gain, or some equivalent scenario. An old maxim is that if everyone is jolly during a business deal, someone is really getting the short end.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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well ill wait to hear from them for now. I would like some hard evidence to present them or someone else if this ever comes up because they were telling me all 2002 and older northstars had this problem. So if my 2000 doesnt have that problem it would be nice to have proof. But like i said, i spilled steering fluid on top the engine a few days before, oil filters natually leak, every engine looks oily on the bottom unless you clean it once a month and I told them that I could go into their lot and look under any of their cars and spot some oil too, it was raining and wet out that day and all they did was glance under the car which if youve ever done you cant really see much at all. Its a big play. But i dont have a drop on my garage floor so obviously im not "leaking" oil.

I have gone to other dealers and they will offer me what I want for it, but so far they dont have anything i want yet. But Im in no hurry so well see what happens.

This dealership has reviews online I read, most are nice, a couple not. One mentioned the manager threatened to get physical with one of the customers friends LOL. Thats a good salesman <_<

Thanks for all the input guys. I love buying a car then selling my car but at this point the trade in is more convenient for our daily driver due to we dont have time to mess with selling mine and dealing with that whole situation of advertising and such.

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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The case half seals, when seeping, rarely drip to the ground. They just make the underside of the engine look greasy/dirty and you would not have known yours was seeping until the dealer pointed it out to you...

I'm not saying the case half seals can't/won't leak oil to the ground but a more likely candidate is the oil manifold plate that is between the oil pan and the lower crankcase half. It is still a big job since the trans needs to be removed in order to R&R the oil pan and manifold.

My thought is the dealer knows you want the car on their lot and are using every technique to their advantage.

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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well they called today and are willing to take my offer. Only thing is they want to do it all today because they want to take my car to the auctions tomorrow, they want nothing to do with it. Thats not my problem. But if I go there today i WILL be educating them on the half case seal and other leaks so they wont make up words like midseal and confuse an educated cadillac enthusiast like myself. Unfortunately they will use it for bad, Im afraid they tell everyone that brings a caddy in that they have a midseal leak and they cant offer them much. All i can do is educate them and leave reviews online to beware of their techniques, though not everybody reads them.

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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Share on other sites

By the way, you have mentioned a couple of times that the oil filter leaks. I have never had that experience, nor have I ever seen oil filters that leak.

Make sure that you lubricate the round seal with clean oil and when it makes contact turn it a quarter of a turn, it wont leak.

Now its possible that you have a leak from 1) the oil pressure switch, 2) cooler line plugs or cooler lines or 3) the oil filter adapter seals between the adaptor and the engine block

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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well they called today and are willing to take my offer. Only thing is they want to do it all today because they want to take my car to the auctions tomorrow, they want nothing to do with it. Thats not my problem. But if I go there today i WILL be educating them on the half case seal and other leaks so they wont make up words like midseal and confuse an educated cadillac enthusiast like myself. Unfortunately they will use it for bad, Im afraid they tell everyone that brings a caddy in that they have a midseal leak and they cant offer them much. All i can do is educate them and leave reviews online to beware of their techniques, though not everybody reads them.

Sounds good; you get the car you wanted, and you got the amount you wanted for your Cadillac. Win win, except for the irritation of the negotiation process. That actually can be fun too if you take the right attitude about it I suppose.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube

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Yes i feel i won a small battle but ultimately I spent a little bit more than planned to get the car I really wanted.

The oil filter adapter COULD be leaking. I changed both crank sensors a couple years ago and dont you have to remove the thing that holds the oil filter? Because if you do I think I remember there being an o-ring or a seal on it and it looked ok for an o-ring and the car was all apart so I was too lazy to go to the parts store to buy a .20c o-ring. So that could be leaking.

The oil filter itself... I have always changed my own oil on my whole family's cars. I always rub the seal down with oil before install and hand tighten as tight as possible. But whenever I go to change them again they always have a film of oil on them or a single drop towards the bottom ready to drop off. Im not saying they leak because I dont have oil on my garage from anything like that, but I would say they "seap" like the half case or something?...

* 1966 Deville Convertible

* 2007 Escalade ESV Black on Black

* 1996 Fleetwood Brougham Black on Black V4P -Gone
* 1983 Coupe Deville Street/Show Lowrider -Gone

* 1970 Calais 4dr Hardtop GONE
* 2000 Deville DTS - Silver with Black Leather and SE grille GONE
* 1999 Seville STS - Pearl Red GONE

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I think trying to "educate" them is giving them far too much credit. If you try, this will tell them that they convinced you that they thought that they were telling the truth. Don't give them the satisfaction of even thinking that they sold their con even temporarily; just make the deal as agreed, read the fine print on the warranty of the car you are getting, and drive it away with a smile.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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