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CTS-V vs the World Performance Sedan Showdown


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It was a fantastic day! We went 145 mph with Ari Straus in a CTS-V and by the end of the first lap the color returned to my face...as I got confidence in the car, the driver, the track, etc, the braking is astounding and the car STICKS to the ground. The track was wet in places and it made no difference. WOW... I just held on for dear life...

Thanks Bruce, it was a great day

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Here is a link to the photos I took today

Me ready for a lap

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Bruce

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Bob Lutz and John Heinricy

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CTS Coupe

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Bruce with the Coupe

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Side View of Coupe

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Bruce & BBF,

Great work (fun actually) with the posts, etc!

I happened to notice that my two sons had/have two of the other-than CTS-V's that placed.

My FOS Favorite Oldest Son, had an 05 M3, but rarely opened it up. He is married now so it went away...

My FYS Favorite Youngest Son, has an EVO VIII, (parked with the 99 Deville - that he drives much, much more).

However, he bought his 05 EVO from a guy that had "more money than brains", who poured many-many thousands into it, but never raced it. It still has the racing transaxle, enroute adjustable suspension, and aftermarket engine management. He removed the huge turbo (with hissing/popping waste gate?), racing induction sytem and a few other engine mods that made it difficult to start much less drive - until the exhaust temperatures and O2 levels lined out. The supposed 435hp at the top of the rpm band and track gearing - was not a daily driver to feather a clutch pack at lumpy rpms. FYS still drives it in SCCA timed short-courses for fun, but it needs more room...to get the best out of it.

Back to your topic...

I found it odd that an EVO (probably an X), with 300hp or so (stock), would do well against a CTS-V at 556hp, but then again it might be lighter, it has a performance-based AWD (great for wet weather), but then - there is always the driver.

Again, thanks for the great info and keep it up , (as if there was anything we could do to stop it...) :D

Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning.
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What a great event. And, a BMW M3 was in the pack. I would have to say, though that Bob Lutz himself brought up the rear of the pack. The guys over 3:00 weren't really in the hunt. The winner, John Heinricy, was a bit of a ringer -- an SCCA champion in a Cobalt, just-retired GM test driver and assistant chief engineer for the Corvette and Director of the GM Performance Division.

BMW is spinning this, through an Edmunds Inside Line blog entry and an identical post on a MotorTrend Forum, as a BMW win because all the drivers that were ahead of Michael Cooper were ringers and he wasn't. A "mystery driver" named as Johnny O'Connell, a Team Corvette driver, is given as actuallly having the fastest lap at 2:45:537, but he wasn't listed in the standings by Bruce, and I suspect that he wasn't eligible and drove there for fun, and the BMW people included him as part of the BMW spin. Aaron Link doesn't seem to be any more of a ringer than Michael Cooper; Brian Redman did once race professionally in F1 -- but retired in 1974, and now organizes vintage racing (see http://www.gorace.com/). But, the BMW post reads like a whine to me. This was an internationally advertised manufacturer's invitation event, and they brought their best car with a Skip Barber trained SCCA racer and lost convincingly. Where's the SCCA love?

This event looks like a really good time for all concerned. I would hope that it becomes a prototype event for more good times to come.

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-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Aaron Link is one of the CTS-V engineers, so certainly not a pro racer or a ringer.

The buzz and arguments are all good for Cadillac I think in the any publicity is good publicity sense. As I put in the blog post, the Track Manager said that the M3 is 2 sec a lap slower than the CTS-V at Monticello. Michael Cooper was quoted by one of the other sites as saying, after his test drive on track in a V, that he could take 3 sec off his M3 time.

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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These are images I posted to www.twitter.com/caddyinfo via Twitpic from my cell yesterday. Click to go to larger images.

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Bob Lutz speaking at Driver's meeting

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BodybyFisher listening to Bob Lutz

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Talk about bad taste from BMW! First manufacturers don't accept the challenge coming with lame excuses, then they brag about how outstanding they are.

Then proove it. All show and no go if you ask me. Expensive crap prone to rust and warped cylinder heads.

Me on the other hand will propably be buried in my Cadillac ;)

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The BMW guys were nasty on Cadillac's facebook page also, I dont get it.

I am going to say one more thing, I was surprised that Ari said that the with the same driver the M3 was 2 seconds slower, which based on Michael Coopers statements after he drove the CTS-V sounded correct.

I dont know anything about the M3, but everytime he drove by at speed I heard the wheels squeeling. After the race, I looked the car over and the rear wheels had a LOT of negative camber. Other people standing there confirmed to me what I was hearing and thought it was odd. Looking at the wheel from the top, I was shocked at how much negative camber that was dialed in. Obviously the car was set up for the track, maybe too much so

The 21 yo Michael Cooper came from a wealthy family that was devoted to hot cars (Corvettes) and racing, he had a lot of skip barber driving experience, it certainly was a credit to him to drive a 2:50 lap, but it was not surprising when you knew all of the facts, especially when Ari told Bruce and I that the M3 was 2 seconds slower than the CTS-V with the same driver.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Its unfair for them to criticize Cadillac because they didnt show up with their best. It was a throw down by Bob Lutz, and they didnt bring it!

I for one am looking forward to next years challenge! Maybe the competitors will grow some testicles and show up...

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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This was an internationally advertised invitational. Everybody brought their best, or, like Jaguar and many others, declined. Everybody that showed up was there to win and have a good time, and, in fact, everybody there did exactly that.

Everybody showed up with a prepped car for the track and conditions. If track experience indicated that the BMW M3 needed a lot of negative camber then that's what you would expect of one that showed up for this event.

The M3 is in the same price range as the CTS-V and has its own V8 not offered in the other 3-series. It's fair game.

I don't know why the BMW proponents are behaving badly; I could quote an old joke ("What's the difference between a BMW and a cactus...") to illistrate a possibility that American response to Teutonic advertising initiatives ("The Ultimate Driving Machine") brings together a coterie of miscreants with bad manners. But I don't want to respond to that beyond pointing it out for the sake of humor, and I certainly don't want to descend to that level of behavior. I'm sure that most BMW people are embarrassed by those clowns.

Let's do it again. Bring 'em back. Change the track to favor the Jaguar as a blog post on Jalopnik's web page suggests. Let the good times roll. And, let the best car win. Again.

Uh, Bob, you need to put in some practice time.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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I should be clear that Michael Cooper and his family seemed very nice, and are definitely car people, which is my kind of enthusiast. His Dad is friends with the guy that did the XXXLR, the top-speed run XLR, and was at Bonneville for that. Michael crashed? his first ZR1, then traded the next ZR1. His dad showed us video of a burnout in his 55 Chevy (built). This family is serious about cars.

Here is what Michael wrote about the CTS-V Challenge on the M3 board:

But I will say this right off the bat, anybody that thinks the m3 should beat any time the ctsv can do on that track doesnt know anything. I got to do 2 laps in the CTSV at the end of the day and was extremely impressed.

Updated with later post:

So here is my take on it guys:

I was hoping for rain all week because I figured Lutz would have some confidence issues in the rain. We got to the track and it was misting so got me going a little. I never expected to be able to beat Lutz in the ctsv, knowing the the ctsv was capable of. I haven't been on the track since july, but that didn't seem to effect me. In the first practice I didn't take that many laps, Maybe 5-6 hot laps. I was able to do this because I watched a lot of video before going to the track. I then just watched what braking points people like John Heinricy were using going into turn 1 because thats the only spot I seemed to have trouble. Then the challenge came around, On my out lap I just checked out where the wet spots were and then came the laps. My first hot lap was pretty good, but as I went through I knew a few spots that I could pickup time on the 2nd lap. I did just that picking up what I think was a full second on the 2nd hot lap, I would have liked to get a 3rd lap in but the brakes had checked out.

My impressions of the CTSV:

I got to drive the CTSV with two other people in the car, an added 300 lbs. I pulled out of the pits and was impressed by the power. Then coming out of turn 1 in 2nd gear I was really impressed by the power since in my car I had to use third and the M lacks in torque and overall grunt to be honest. I come up to a few turns after that and then go down the back straight and was VERY impressed by the brakes, they inspired a lot of confidence and as a driver thats what you want. Every second of the two laps I got in the car impressed me the brakes and the power mostly, the handling was right their with that of the M3. I would love to get some timed laps in the CTSV at Monticello Motor Club.

also this from Michael:

I can say one thing for sure I got to drive the CTSV and the M3 is NOT the faster car on the track. I am hoping to get some timed laps in the CTSV on monticello in the near future.

So, as the "Mystery Driver" pointed out to Michael, he was really humming around the track in the M3.

Put him in a CTS-V and he would be even faster.

Bruce

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Great post Bruce!!! that was the impression I got from Michael Cooper after her drove the CTS-V..

If you are in Philly, get a cheese steak with fried onions

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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John O'Connell, of Corvette C6-R ALMS fame, drove the camera man and two other guys around Monticello's race track after the CTS-V Challenge. Max speed was 145mph. With half a ton of men in there...YIKES!!

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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The video gives the feel of the kind of event where people and teams lend tools, parts and even personal assistance to competitors because it improves the event as a whole. Everybody is a winner.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Definitely was a fun group.

Doug Cooper is Michael's father; here are some shots of his cars: http://www.hubgarage.com/garages/tag/doug%20cooper

DSC_0573_resize_detail.JPG

He was fun to talk to; really in to cars -- a car cannot have too many HP at his house.

One of his cars in Popular Hotrodding:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/..._210/index.html

0803phr_11_z%20doug_coopers_1955_chevrol

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Warning: this external article does contain some profanity.

Interesting TTAC take on the event by Jack Baruth.

Consider, for a moment, the relationship between TTAC and GM. From “General Motors Must Die” to the present day, there’s been no love lost. Yet the people at Cadillac offered to help me. They offered to assist with bleeding the brakes in my S5, which would not fix the issue. Then they offered to let me borrow a car. I took one of the Monticello “fleet car” CTS-Vs out and got five more practice laps before the session concluded.

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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Real car aficionados know who makes the best performance cars. Cadillac can't buy the pedigree it seeks so desperately.

Nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

"Capital punishment means never having to say, "You again"?
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Real car aficionados focus on the facts, not the badge on the butt of the car.

The whole point of the Event was to show that the Cadillac CTS-V can outclass any performance sedan in the world. Out of the box the CTS-V has the suspension, brakes, powertrain to run hot laps back to back with no problems. Cadillac initial and 4-year quality has been rated independently at the top of the auto industry. The interior of the car is hand-cut and stitched leather.

So the lack of respect is because it is not made in Germany? Or because it does not cost $50K more?

I would love to see BMW or Porsche or Mercedes hold a similar event and invite anyone to show up and compete on the Nurburgring. CTS-V has already been there, since that's where the suspension has been tuned since the initial CTS debut.

Cadillac lists these cars as direct competitors on their website for the CTS-V: Audi S6, BMW M5, Mercedes C63. I don't think there are any 'bad' cars in that bunch.

Cadillac's "pedigree" is just fine. The marque was born with a focus on precision engineering. The problem they are still trying to overcome is the years that they forgot their origins and made badge cars instead of luxury & performance focused Cadillacs. Now they are making desirable, high performance vehicles. I am stunned when people discount their efforts in the face of the vehicles on the street for sale right now.

Bruce

2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

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BMW lover that has two Caddys on his first post

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...ic=5424&hl=

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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