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CTS-V vs the World Performance Sedan Showdown


Bruce Nunnally

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[GMBLogs]

Bob Lutz issues an open challenge to Magazines, Websites, and Pundits to run what you got at Monticello Motor Club on Oct 29. Jalopnik plans to bring an AMG Mercedes apparently. Should be a fun event.

By Bob Lutz

GM Vice Chairman

And I put the challenge out to you. If you own a car comparable to the Cadillac CTS-V (a 4-door production stock sport sedan) and you want to match up against me and the Cadillac, you can join us at Monticello. Follow the link here to fill out an application. From the list of applicants we’ll select several challengers to join us for the V-Series Challenge.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Darn, too bad my Deville is parked, I'd take it up there and open her up! :lol: (and get my butt kicked)

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

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Last I recall AMG is not a stock engine. They are custom built engines signed by the builder. I assume they would be excluded from the challenge.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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{{Thinks of bringing her Impala LS with its small but strangely fast 3.5L engine to the races}} it's not the car that wins the race, it's the driver, and this driver is a maniac....LOL!!

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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BMW M5 offers to join the Hunt

http://www.carguydad.com/official-entered-...ts-v-challenge/

m5b.jpg

Our Car:

2008 BMW M5 with SMG transmission. 13,000 miles, original tires and original brake pads. The Space Gray car is pretty much fully loaded (read: heavy) with:

* Full merino leather (dash/doors/panels/rear of seats/everywhere)

* Comfort Access

* Head-Up Display

* 20-way front seats with active width adjustment

* Heated front and rear seats, heated steering wheel

* Folding rear seat

* Soft close doors

* Premium sound with iPod control and Sirius

* Rear side airbags

* Three child seats in the back

* Fifteen soccer balls and a stroller in the trunk (yes, they fit)

The car is factory stock. The owner is a good friend of mine named Mike who, per the rules, will be driving the car. He has no prior racing experience , however his driving skills were polished at the Porsche Sport Driving and BMW M Schools.

Ironically, Road & Track tested the CTS-V and the M5 at the very same track with the CTS-V running a 2:44.23 to BMW’s 2:44.70, both having been driven by experienced racers.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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So far around 120 applications have been received by Cadillac for competitors to Bob Lutz in a Cadillac CTS-V for 5 laps around Monticello Racing Club.

Cadillac will pick around 5 competitors for the event.

[egmcartech.com]

Nice result so far. Would be interesting to see a graph of the various cars that competitors entered.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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This should be good, is Bob Lutz a good driver? Will the other vehicles be driven by non professionals?

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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John Heinricy is standing by to compare the Cadillac laptime vs professional competitor laptimes. Bob Lutz was a Marine jet pilot, and apparently is a competent driver.

Fastlane bio for Bob Lutz

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Thanks Bruce

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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  • 2 weeks later...
Jaguar pulled out of the challenge. So now it will be the private cars plus the journalists in CTS-Vs.

I saw that on the Cadillac Facebook account, the Cadillac members referred to Jaguar as a wusser...LOL...

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Yes, Jalopnik is really upset they lost their ride and are trying to goad another manufacturer to step up. Hell hath no fury like a news outlet scorned.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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He could try to get one of Hennesy's tricked-out drag CTS-V's like the one we saw tripping the OnStar emergency button by pulling more than 0.99 g's on launch. However I have my doubts that the combination of speed, reliability, and driver-friendly tractability that you see with the designed-all-of-a-piece CTS-V in a tuner house drag-tuned car; I would expect it either to break or to spin in a road race of any length. Between now and Thursday his choices are basically existing cars available for loan or for sale. Short of finding and springing for a Bugatti Veyron or some such, Jalopnik has few choices:

  1. Show up in yet another CTS-V.
  2. Show up in one of the cars bested by the CTS-V, overall, in the Grand Am series (Porsche 911, Dodge Viper, Corvette Z06).
  3. Stay home.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Jalopnik's Monticello Motor club turn by turn analysis:

http://jalopnik.com/5391779/monticello-mot...alysis/gallery/

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Finally found the Motor Club. They certainly don't advertise that it is here or where it is. I asked the locals at a pharmacy I stopped in for camera batteries, and they had never heard of it. Basically you have to turn off on an otherwise unmarked street -- there is a street sign -- just past a bend in the highway. After a bit you come to an imposing gate with a large sign that notes entry is by invitation only. My mission was accomplished once I knew where to go tomorrow, so I just marked that chore done and headed to dinner.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Apparently Jaguar was comfortable with the insurance and liability issues when they had their cars at Monticello for the Jaguar Legendary cars driving event:

http://manonthemove.com/2009/07/01/jaguar-...-monticello-ny/

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Having a great time so far. Mike (BBF) and I had breakfast and got checked in at the CTS-V challenge event. Driver"s instructions done, and now they are starting practice laps.

100_0706

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Uploading more photos now. The track is wet but the cars are running well; adds to the difficulty though.

Photolink on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15045235@N08/?saved=1

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Adding difficulty and unpredictability adds to the advantage of the CTS-V. Ringers with stealth ultra-sticky tires won't do well, for example. Difficult conditions are less of a disadvantage to a well-balanced car.

I think that a sedan will have more of an advantage over a hard core sports car in wet or unpredictable conditions. This is because, in a hard core road racing/sports/GT car, the roll axis passes through the CG and the anti-dive geometry also puts the CG on the pitch axis because these allow maximum handling and braking without lean or forward pitch. This is difficult and less than desirable in a sedan or street car because suspension compliance is reduced in cornering and braking so that imperfections in the road surface are not absorbed largely by the single wheel encountering them, thus forcing adjustments through the whole car. This decreases traction abruptly at all four wheels whenever road surface imperfections are encountered. This is likely why the Cadillac got the Manufacturer's Championship in the Trans Am series two years running even though they didn't win a lot of races: on the whole, this is advantageous at the track in real-world conditions. Racing is a balance between how hard you push the car versus the probability of spin at every curve or corner, and making this trade easier for the driver to deal with translates to faster average lap times.

But, this may favor the BMW sedan as well. We will see, later today.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Today, at the Monticello Motor Club, Bob Lutz and the CTS-V competed against other production sedans on the racetrack. Posted below are the best lap times for each driver. Please note the track was 3 ½ miles long. Thanks!

ctsvchallengeresults.jpg

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Ari Straus is the gentleman that gave BBF and I a lap around the track after the Event, which he described as a 6/10 lap. We hit 145mph down the straight.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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