2000 Eldorado ETC

[KHE]

35k without an oil change is abuse, not to mention foolhardy. Not on my car.

I agree, the only problem is that he sent his oil in for analysis and it tested good. Kevin mentioned ZDP, that it is depleted over time, we have had many discussions in the past about that, with the guru. Does anyone know if synthetic relies upon ZDP as an anti wear compound? What allows synthetic to last so long IF ZDP is being depleted at the same rate as dino oil?

If in fact synthetic oil is still good at 35K, which to me is hard to believe, what consideration do they give to changing the filter during that long interval?

I would like to see the independent testing results

I cant see how synthetic oil survives short drives where moisture and impurities are NOT burned out of it, as that is part of the equation that is not mentioned above

Long trips is one thing, short trips is another

I recall the guru stating that all motor oils including synthetic use ZDP as the antiwear additive. It depletes exactly at the same rate, regardless of the base oil.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Kevin

[Ranger]

Hours and Hours OMG

Whats wrong?

Is there a problem?

I thought NorthStars were "MADE TO RUN" and I hate taking two forevers to get someplace.

You are lucky to live in a place to be able to do that.

[JohnnyG]

Amsoil and probably Royal Purple are two oil manufacturers that still talk about extended drain intervals.....it's part of their pyramid scheme, Oh sorry, I meant to say sales pitch.

Anyway, ZDDP and Moly are the two commonly used anti wear additives in all motor oil, including synthetic. Every oil analysis includes that column in the report, regardless of oil type or brand.

The single biggest benefit for using synthetic (guru talking here) is extreme high temperature operation without breakdown. This is why the Corvette does not have an oil cooler installed, if you old guys remember.

Lastly, be careful saying that Amsoil is API certified. Sometimes they forego that formality since they want to deviate from specs, in other words maybe put more ZDDP in than API calls for.

[hjb981]

...

To advise you even further, NEVER run a Northstar with the oil at the FULL mark on the dipstick. Just put in 7.5, or an even 7, and make your own mark on the stick......this is where you will fill the engine to when you add oil. Always remember, if the oil level gets too low, the car will tell you before it does any damage!

Can you evaluate this? Why should the oil not be at the full mark? What can happen? Is there an old thread you can point me to? I searched, but did not find it. Thanks!

[BodybyFisher]

...

To advise you even further, NEVER run a Northstar with the oil at the FULL mark on the dipstick. Just put in 7.5, or an even 7, and make your own mark on the stick......this is where you will fill the engine to when you add oil. Always remember, if the oil level gets too low, the car will tell you before it does any damage!

Can you evaluate this? Why should the oil not be at the full mark? What can happen? Is there an old thread you can point me to? I searched, but did not find it. Thanks!

I have this someplace on this board but go to this link and read this article it was written by a GM Northstar Powertrain Engineer

Note that he says its not necessary to keep it on FULL

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#noil

[JohnnyG]

To advise you even further, NEVER run a Northstar with the oil at the FULL mark on the dipstick. Just put in 7.5, or an even 7, and make your own mark on the stick......this is where you will fill the engine to when you add oil. Always remember, if the oil level gets too low, the car will tell you before it does any damage!

Can you evaluate this? Why should the oil not be at the full mark? What can happen? Is there an old thread you can point me to? I searched, but did not find it. Thanks!

How about Validate? Anyway, the thread has been lost long ago. Only BBF and a few others probably even remember the lengthy discussion on Northstar oil usage and its causes. There are links in the "front end" of this board, but I never read them. You must remember to read this reply in context, we're talking about 10 years ago, when EVERYBODY expected their new Caddy to use absolutely NO oil whatsoever between changes. At the same time, EVERYBODY thought they were doing their engine a favor by filling that sucker clear to the top with the best, most expensive, sythetic oil they could find. By the way, your car is almost 10 years old now.

The same Powertrain Engineer that BBF is referring to explained that the Northstar has 7.5 quarts of oil in the sump so that it could meet its design criteria of pulling 1.5 G's in a hard turn! There is no reason that the average driver would EVER need that much oil in the engine! Further, people were checking and adding oil to the full mark when the engine was cold, not the way it says in the manual, which was very clear (at the time) to check the engine oil level HOT. Therefore, filling the engine to the FULL mark when cold, actually promoted oil usage, which ended up being a BIG headache for GM. Here we are in The US of A, making a premium class automoble, that uses a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so!!! OH the humanity!

The engine oils at the time (more specifically the VII improvers) were not up to the job of service in a Northstar. The engine design is such that the topmost piston ring is VERY close to the flame front of the combustion chamber. It gets EXTREMELY hot there, and the VII's would coke up (burn) and stick the rings. This is why the GM "ring soak" treatment was developed in an effort to dissolve the carbonized deposits which were sticking the rings. Sometimes it even worked! The Northstar design of that time also included an internal breather tube which directed excess oil mist down into the combustion chambers to be burned off, this even further compounded the problem. It ended up being a viscious circle of defeat for the Northstar and GM, with no way out except redesign.

In M/Y 2000, the engine WAS redesigned with a reduced "overall" compression ratio (it now can run on regular instead of premium) and roller cam followers, the internal breather was eliminated, and the top piston ring moved down out of the heat zone a little bit. This reduced performance a little, increased emmissions a little, but gave people the "luxury" of not having to follow the directions in the book so exactingly. Motor oils were undergoing a redesign as well, with better synthetic polymer additives which would withstand higher temps.....and then there was synthetic oils without ANY VII's at all!

The Northstar will run absolutely fine forever with only 5 quarts of oil in the engine. And if you don't believe it, just give it a try. If the oil level gets too low, a light will come on the dash to tell you so.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Johnny

[MadeInAmerica]

I would have a problem running oil for 35000 miles without changing the filter

AMSOIL Ea nanofiber technology oil filters are designed and recommended to go up to 25,000 miles without needing to be changed. These oils filters use state of the art nanofiber technology.

name='JohnnyG' - Amsoil and probably Royal Purple are two oil manufacturers that still talk about extended drain intervals.....it's part of their pyramid scheme, Oh sorry, I meant to say sales pitch. Anyway, ZDDP and Moly are the two commonly used anti wear additives in all motor oil, including synthetic. Every oil analysis includes that column in the report, regardless of oil type or brand.

Many synthetic oil companies recommend and warranty extended drain intervals. AMSOIL synthetic motor oil is the leader in the extended drain industry with their synthetic 0W-30 motor oil recommended up to 35,000 miles without needing to be changed. AMSOIL's ASL 5W-30 and ATM 10W-30 synthetic motor oils have a recommended drain interval up to 25,000 miles. However, Red Line has synthetic oils recommended up to 18,000 miles without needing to be changed. Mobil has synthetic oils recommended up to 15,000 miles without needing to be changed and their are others too. It's old hat.

name='KHE' I recall the guru stating that all motor oils including synthetic use ZDP as the antiwear additive. It depletes exactly at the same rate, regardless of the base oil.

ZDP = Zinc, which is an extreme pressure anti-wear additive used as a last line of defense against metal-to-metal wear. However, it is not the only additive used to aid in wear prevention. Phosphorus is also an extreme pressure anti-wear additive. In the oil analysis reports for my Cadillac, after 33,483 miles without being changed, AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil had a very healthy 1,698 PPM of zinc. Mobil 1 and Valvoline Dura-Blend, that I also tested had far less zinc content with accumulated mileage as low as 3,246 miles with the Mobil 1 oil sample. AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil had a phosphorus content of 1,424 PPM, even after 33,483 miles without being changed. Again, much higher than the Mobil 1 or Valvoline Dura-Blend oil samples with mileage as little as 3,246 miles.

name='Ranger' - 35k without an oil change is abuse, not to mention foolhardy. Not on my car.

After 33,483 miles of AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil being used in my Cadillac's Northstar engine, the oil analysis report stated, "No corrective action required. Oil is suitable for continued use". AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil is formulated for extended drain intervals up to 35,000 miles and even much further with superior performing filtration. I had one of my cars with well over 100,000 miles using AMSOIL with no oil change and the oil analysis reports came back in fine shape.

name='BodybyFisher' -I agree, the only problem is that he sent his oil in for analysis and it tested good. Kevin mentioned ZDP, that it is depleted over time, we have had many discussions in the past about that, with the guru. Does anyone know if synthetic relies upon ZDP as an anti wear compound? What allows synthetic to last so long IF ZDP is being depleted at the same rate as dino oil? If in fact synthetic oil is still good at 35K, which to me is hard to believe, what consideration do they give to changing the filter during that long interval? I would like to see the independent testing results I cant see how synthetic oil survives short drives where moisture and impurities are NOT burned out of it, as that is part of the equation that is not mentioned above. Long trips is one thing, short trips is another.

The vast majority of synthetic oils on the market today are formulated for standard drain intervals, just like their petroleum oil brethren are and can even use the very same oil additive package as that standard drain petroleum oils. Just because the base stock of the oil is synthetic doesn't make it safely capable of extended drain intervals. Extended drain synthetic oils must be formulated differently to be able to withstand the rigors of extended drain service. Yes, all motor oils that I know of on the market today contain zinc as an extreme pressure anti-wear additive. AMSOIL Ea nanofiber oil filters are recommended up to 25,000 miles before needing to be changed. The laboratory oil analysis report on the test results of the oil from my Cadillac are mostly short trip city driving. The oil analysis report on the AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil I use in my Cadillac shows a water content of zero percent and fuel content of less than 1%, even after 33,483 miles without being changed. The other oil samples tested the same in this regard. This is common and expected.

One of the most important area's where an oil must perform very well in extended drain service is with its TBN, or Total Base Number. TBN measures the ability of the oil to attack and neutralize contaminants and corrosive acids. The higher the TBN, the better. With TBN, oils should be changed when the TBN numbers nears 2.0. After 33,483 miles of not being changed, AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil had a great TBN of 6.72. With 3,246 accumulated miles, the Mobil 1 sample had a TBN of 5.71. So with 30,237 more miles on AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil, it had a superior TBN than Mobil 1 with only 3,246 miles. This demonstrates what I mean when I mentioned that extended drain oils must be formulated for the rigors of extended drain service. Asking a standard drain oil to perform in extended drain service can cause problems your wallet doesn't want to experience.

Here is a quote from one of my oil analysis guides regarding oil TBN; "Depending upon the application, different oils have different blends of additives designed to maintain the oil’s lubricating properties and protect equipment. Base (alkaline) additives are present in automotive engine oils to neutralize acidic by-products of combustion. New oils start out with the strongest TBN they can possess, depending upon the base oil and the additive chemistry used to make them. Over its service life, a motor oil will lose its ability to neutralize acids. Measuring the TBN strength of the oil is very important when extending oil drain intervals, as the TBN value indicates the capability of the additives to protect the engine from acidic corrosion. The standard test for measuring an engine oil’s acid neutralizing strength, or Total Base Number, is the ASTM-D 4739 Reserve Alkalinity Test. TBN is expressed using a value number, which decreases as nitration and oxidation values rise over the service life of the oil. Because an oil’s characteristics are interdependent, TBN depletion reflects other characteristics of the engine oil that are out of acceptable range. This may indicate that the oil’s service life has ended and the oil should be changed".

What of airborne ingested dirt? Doesn't that make the oil, "dirty", necessitating it be changed? Only if the air and oil filters are not up to the task at hand. With the oil analysis report, the column listed, "silicon", measures the amount of airborne ingested dirt and abrasives. There was very little dirt present in the oil samples, so the AMSOIL Ea nanofiber oil and air filters I have been using in my Cadillac have been doing a very good job, even over 33,483 miles of the AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil not being changed.

One of the questions posed here, was what company would recommend up to 35,000 miles before changing their oil? The answer is from the largest pure synthetic oil company in the world and industry leader, AMSOIL. AMSOIL Inc. was the company that coined the phrase, "Extended drain interval", and has led the industry for decades. Below is a link that describes the AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil and it's up to 35,000 mile recommended, (and warranted), service interval -

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/sso.aspx

I've tried to upload the PDF file of the oil analysis report, but the system says it is over the 64k limit. So if anyone would like to see it, just PM me with an e-mail address and I'll be happy to send it out to you.

[winterset]

One think I can say about synthetic is that on the coldest days in the Northeast, the car cranks faster when I have synthetic in it. I have conventional in it now (only time it's ever had it), and I will have the oil changed next week with Mobile1 synthetic - this is in preparation for the winter.

[MAC]

I'll buy synthetic but not Amsoil because it's too expensive ($10.50 a quart). I would rather buy an extended life oil filter and buy a MityVac oil changer to suck the oil out of the dipstick pipe. This way oil changes are convenient. I can continue to use the same filter for 3 changes. Actually, the other day I looked at the Mobile1 extended life filter which is a combination of paper and synthetic fiber. I might buy Amsoil's "Ea Oil Filter", which will cost me $16.65--That's the price of about 4 conventional paper filters. If the conventional filters will last 7K each then it's a wash as far as price. I'm not questioning the quality of Amsoil products, but I do question whether it's worth spending $100 for an Amsoil oil change (including filter), particularly since the Northstar burns oil which means one will have to buy at least another 5 quarts of oil (another $53) for the 30,000 mile change interval. My STS used 2 quarts over 4,000 miles*, which is excellent as far as a Northstar engine is concerned. I have about 12% oil life left. Further, I have to order Amsoil online. If Amsoil wants my business I will have to be convinced it's that much more superior to conventional and/or synthetic, such that I feel compelled to buy it.

* According to CARFAX, it looks like the last oil change was at 147,097 at a local Cadillac dealership. I bought my STS with 152,000. So, it might be that it went a lot further than 4K. The current mileage is about 156K.

[hjb981]

I have this someplace on this board but go to this link and read this article it was written by a GM Northstar Powertrain Engineer

Note that he says its not necessary to keep it on FULL

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#noil

OK, thanks. I have read it before (long time ago).

To advise you even further, NEVER run a Northstar with the oil at the FULL mark on the dipstick. Just put in 7.5, or an even 7, and make your own mark on the stick......this is where you will fill the engine to when you add oil. Always remember, if the oil level gets too low, the car will tell you before it does any damage!

Can you evaluate this? Why should the oil not be at the full mark? What can happen? Is there an old thread you can point me to? I searched, but did not find it. Thanks!

How about Validate? Anyway, the thread has been lost long ago. Only BBF and a few others probably even remember the lengthy discussion on Northstar oil usage and its causes. There are links in the "front end" of this board, but I never read them. You must remember to read this reply in context, we're talking about 10 years ago, when EVERYBODY expected their new Caddy to use absolutely NO oil whatsoever between changes. At the same time, EVERYBODY thought they were doing their engine a favor by filling that sucker clear to the top with the best, most expensive, sythetic oil they could find. By the way, your car is almost 10 years old now.

The same Powertrain Engineer that BBF is referring to explained that the Northstar has 7.5 quarts of oil in the sump so that it could meet its design criteria of pulling 1.5 G's in a hard turn! There is no reason that the average driver would EVER need that much oil in the engine! Further, people were checking and adding oil to the full mark when the engine was cold, not the way it says in the manual, which was very clear (at the time) to check the engine oil level HOT. Therefore, filling the engine to the FULL mark when cold, actually promoted oil usage, which ended up being a BIG headache for GM. Here we are in The US of A, making a premium class automoble, that uses a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so!!! OH the humanity!

The engine oils at the time (more specifically the VII improvers) were not up to the job of service in a Northstar. The engine design is such that the topmost piston ring is VERY close to the flame front of the combustion chamber. It gets EXTREMELY hot there, and the VII's would coke up (burn) and stick the rings. This is why the GM "ring soak" treatment was developed in an effort to dissolve the carbonized deposits which were sticking the rings. Sometimes it even worked! The Northstar design of that time also included an internal breather tube which directed excess oil mist down into the combustion chambers to be burned off, this even further compounded the problem. It ended up being a viscious circle of defeat for the Northstar and GM, with no way out except redesign.

In M/Y 2000, the engine WAS redesigned with a reduced "overall" compression ratio (it now can run on regular instead of premium) and roller cam followers, the internal breather was eliminated, and the top piston ring moved down out of the heat zone a little bit. This reduced performance a little, increased emmissions a little, but gave people the "luxury" of not having to follow the directions in the book so exactingly. Motor oils were undergoing a redesign as well, with better synthetic polymer additives which would withstand higher temps.....and then there was synthetic oils without ANY VII's at all!

The Northstar will run absolutely fine forever with only 5 quarts of oil in the engine. And if you don't believe it, just give it a try. If the oil level gets too low, a light will come on the dash to tell you so.

Yes, validate would have worked better, even though I really wanted to say develop, expand or elaborate or something like that. In plain words make the discussion more lengthy, which is what you did anyways! Myself, I always make sure that the oil level is in the correct range when hot. For some reason one side of the stick is always one notch higher than the other, and I keep the high side under the full mark. Since the low reading should be closer to the actual level, I should be running it a little below the full capacity.

[MadeInAmerica]

Hi Mack. Wholesale prices for AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil are as low as $7.98 per quart. With AMSOIL's safe extended drain intervals, AMSOIL synthetic motor oils save money vs other oils. Wholesale for the AMSOIL Ea nanofiber technology oil filter for my Cadillac Northstar engine is only $12.65. The convenience of being able to order online from the comfort of your home and having your order delivered right to your front door also means not having to spend money for gas to an auto parts store and back, no dealing with check out lines and uncaring clerks who say, "Have a nice daaaay", to you while they are looking at the next person in line. If you'd like to see the performance of AMSOIL vs Mobil 1, I can e-mail you the oil analysis test results from my Cadillac. They are very interesting. Using AMSOIL, you may find oil consumption being reduced due to its resistance to vaporization, (burning). Here is a comparative test result of AMSOIL 0W-30 synthetic motor oil vs other oils.

[Ranger]

I had one of my cars with well over 100,000 miles using AMSOIL with no oil change and the oil analysis reports came back in fine shape.

Are you saying you ran an engine 100,000 miles without an oil change?

[BodybyFisher]

Why does this sound FAR FETCHED to me. With the cost of oil, and with importing it from the middle east why arent all cars running with ZERO oil changes?

[MadeInAmerica]

I had one of my cars with well over 100,000 miles using AMSOIL with no oil change and the oil analysis reports came back in fine shape.

Are you saying you ran an engine 100,000 miles without an oil change?

Yes indeed. I used the AMSOIL bypass oil filtration system to keep the oil clean. Oil analysis showed the oil suitable for continued use and no corrective action required. But there are many others that have gone much, much further than that using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. Here is a video showing an engine using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil that went 409,000 miles without an oil change, the engine is torn down for inspection and evaluation by an independent engine rater. In the video, you'll see the internal engine parts yourself, including bearings, cylinder liners, pistons and rings, valve train components, the interior of the oil pan, etc. The driver of the vehicle states that using AMSOIL products have saved him, "a LOT of money". Enjoy -

Part 1 -

Part 2 -

Part 3 -

[MadeInAmerica]

Why does this sound FAR FETCHED to me. With the cost of oil, and with importing it from the middle east why arent all cars running with ZERO oil changes?

Well, when you want to know the truth, follow the money. The Big Oil industry calls the shots, as I am sure you are aware and if everyone used extended drain AMSOIL synthetic motor oils instead of the Big Oil industry oils, Big Oil would be losing a substantial amount of money and they don't want that. AMSOIL Inc. encourages their customers to use less of their products, not more, which is 180 degrees opposite from what you see with the Big Oil industry greed. Ever since crude oil was discovered, the Big Oil industry has been calling the shots all over the world. WWII was fought because of oil and the final outcome was determined by oil, with Nazi Germany and Japan running out of oil to fuel their war machines. Oil literally controls the world and whomever controls that oil, controls the world. This is why Saddam Hussein tried to take over Kuwait and was threatening to take over all of the Middle East.

If anyone wants to know more, you can stop by my web site at -- www.lubedealer.com/HiTechOilCo Lots of interesting reading.

[BodybyFisher]

Watch the news, GOVERNMENT now calls the shots, if this was legit, not only government but EVERY car manufacturer would be hyping NO OIL CHANGES for 100,000 miles!

[JimD]

....WWII was fought because of oil

You have allowed your commercial connection with Amway to distort your grasp of reality.

There is no point in re-writing world history of the 1930's to make a sale. Too many folks can see through the smoke and mirrors.

[MadeInAmerica]

Hi Jim. Thanks for your response. I have no affiliation with Amway. BodybyFisher asked why long extended drain oil intervals weren't being used by everyone. I answered. Didn't rewrite anything. Oil analysis test results are not smoke and mirrors.

....WWII was fought because of oil

You have allowed your commercial connection with Amway to distort your grasp of reality.

There is no point in re-writing world history of the 1930's to make a sale. Too many folks can see through the smoke and mirrors.

[MadeInAmerica]

Watch the news, GOVERNMENT now calls the shots, if this was legit, not only government but EVERY car manufacturer would be hyping NO OIL CHANGES for 100,000 miles!

Certainly is legit. Watch the video. Oil analysis is legit. It's proof. I've been using 25,000 mile + extended oil drain intervals for 25 years with great results.

Governments and their actions are controlled by the most profitable legitimate industry in the world, which is the Big Oil industry. Oil is liquid gold. Check out the Pulitzer Prize winning book, "The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money and Power", by Daniel Yergin. It documents the unadulterated greed of the Big Oil industry. Here is the link to the Barnes and Noble store about this great book --> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Prize...tm=5&usri=1

[Texas Jim]

Didn't rewrite anything.

....WWII was fought because of oil

Don't be telling JimD he lied in his statement.

Yes you DID attempt to rewrite history...in the quote above... about WWII being fought because of oil.

That is just WRONG.

If you need to go to THAT length to try to sell your oil...I don't think I want any part of it.

[MadeInAmerica]

Hi Texas Jim. Thanks for your response. Japan needed more oil for their growing industry and this is why they invaded China. Germany was short of oil too and with the power mad Adolph Hitler and his dreams of world conquest, they didn't have enough oil to achieve this and this is why Hitler attacked Russia, in order to get to the huge Russian oil fields. Had he achieved this, we might all be saluting a Nazi flag right now.

Again, check out the book I left the link for. It describes all this in detail. It's a great book.

[JohnnyG]

Yes, validate would have worked better, even though I really wanted to say develop, expand or elaborate or something like that. In plain words make the discussion more lengthy, which is what you did anyways!

Agreed! On both counts, but those that have been on this board for a while can tell you that I'm no stranger to long posts. You should see me take off on Road Force Balance sometime! It might take a few hours of two fingered typing, but you must admit, it IS a complicated subject. You should be glad that I was in a hurry that night!

[hjb981]

Yes, validate would have worked better, even though I really wanted to say develop, expand or elaborate or something like that. In plain words make the discussion more lengthy, which is what you did anyways!

Agreed! On both counts, but those that have been on this board for a while can tell you that I'm no stranger to long posts. You should see me take off on Road Force Balance sometime! It might take a few hours of two fingered typing, but you must admit, it IS a complicated subject. You should be glad that I was in a hurry that night!

Oh, I don't mind long posts myself. And I have seen some of your longer posts. By the way, didn't you mean humility (not humanity) in your previous post to me (quite long back in the thread I guess, because of all the discussion on super long oil change intervals)? I was reading up quite a bit on the balancing issue some years ago, when I had some strange vibrations at different speeds. They would come and go - sometimes the car was fine, sometimes I could feel the shimmy. It was still on the level when passengers would not react, but it annoyed me. It was on my -97 DeVille, which is not a 2000-up, and hence should normally be fine. It all solved itself when I later changed the tires. All the vibrations just went out the door and have not come back (it's been 3.5 years).

One question about road balancing: How are the 2006-up DTS:es? They redid a lot of parts that year, so I was curious if they got rid of the sensitiveness to imperfections in the tires. Actually this is off topic, so I will start a new thread about it:

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=23031

See you there!