95dev Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Today I go into my 95 Caddy sedan deville and the brake pedal went almost to the floor, I had to pump the pedal to stop the car. I notice that there was fluid leaking on the drivers front side, about a foot behind the front wheel. I havn't raised the car yet, but I was wondering if that is where the Hydraulic Brake Hose is Located. If so how hard is it to change it myself. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 That's about where the junction of the hose and hard line is. If you live in the rust belt you probably have a rotted hard line. If so and if you don't have the proper tool set and have little to no inclination to obtain the right tools you are well advised to have a shop make the repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Actually, if the '95 is like '94, a foot behind the left front wheel will be a hard line (3/16 steel brake pipe). It's most likely close to where the brake line emerges from the fire wall area to extend to the rear. That area will be more exposed to the elements, including road salt. If it is the hard line, then let's hope it's not so bad that the brake line has to be re-plumbed to the rear wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 I had the same thing happen on Friday, all brake fluid gone and I have a leak inboard of the LR wheel, I need to get under there tomorrow, will advise.... What I dont understand is why the front and rear systems are not independent unless its because of the ABS.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Gents, replace ALL brake lines right away. Do not make the mistake I have done replacing one by one ... all failed one after another within days!!! The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 The brakes are on a diagonal circuit because of the ABS - left front right rear, right front left rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 The brakes are on a diagonal circuit because of the ABS - left front right rear, right front left rear. In the old days, unless things are still the same, there was a front and rear hydraulic system, if the rear tubing broke you woudl still have the front to stop the car in case of lost of hydraulics on the rear.... I had NO brakes when my rear tubing broke and almost hit the car in front of me if not for the emergency brake which is hardly able to stop the car at all. Am I wrong, are the front and rear systems independent? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 The brakes are on a diagonal circuit because of the ABS - left front right rear, right front left rear. In the old days, unless things are still the same, there was a front and rear hydraulic system, if the rear tubing broke you woudl still have the front to stop the car in case of lost of hydraulics on the rear.... I had NO brakes when my rear tubing broke and almost hit the car in front of me if not for the emergency brake which is hardly able to stop the car at all. Am I wrong, are the front and rear systems independent? Mike, if you think (retrothink) you will probably remember now that your car did not brake as usual before that catastrophic failure. I do remember that my car would come to stop a couple of feet farther than I would expect. I thought that brake pads wore out, but actually a tiny leak in failing lines was the culprit. No, rear and front are not completely independent. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95dev Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Actually, if the '95 is like '94, a foot behind the left front wheel will be a hard line (3/16 steel brake pipe). It's most likely close to where the brake line emerges from the fire wall area to extend to the rear. That area will be more exposed to the elements, including road salt. If it is the hard line, then let's hope it's not so bad that the brake line has to be re-plumbed to the rear wheels. [/quoteI raised the car today, could not see where direct leak was coming from, but I think its coming from around the ABS unit. Is that unit located on the drivers side? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 They're no longer front and rear and to bleed them you have to bleed them in that sequence or they'll never bleed. I found that out the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Actually, if the '95 is like '94, a foot behind the left front wheel will be a hard line (3/16 steel brake pipe). It's most likely close to where the brake line emerges from the fire wall area to extend to the rear. That area will be more exposed to the elements, including road salt. If it is the hard line, then let's hope it's not so bad that the brake line has to be re-plumbed to the rear wheels. I raised the car today, could not see where direct leak was coming from, but I think its coming from around the ABS unit. Is that unit located on the drivers side? Thanks The ABS unit is on the engine compartment side wall under the air box. It will have a number of lines coming out of it. Given that the hydraulic fluid is leaking from behind the front left wheel, I doubt the problem is the ABS unit. The only other thing is that it may be a line connected to the Master Cylinder. There is a lot of stuff in that area so you might be overlooking it. Also, if you take the front left wheel off, you will see hard lines that are routed to the ABS unit. These lines are also susceptible to rusting because they are exposed to the elements. Perhaps the fluid is traveling down the line and is misleading you as to exactly where the leak is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95dev Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Actually, if the '95 is like '94, a foot behind the left front wheel will be a hard line (3/16 steel brake pipe). It's most likely close to where the brake line emerges from the fire wall area to extend to the rear. That area will be more exposed to the elements, including road salt. If it is the hard line, then let's hope it's not so bad that the brake line has to be re-plumbed to the rear wheels. I raised the car today, could not see where direct leak was coming from, but I think its coming from around the ABS unit. Is that unit located on the drivers side? Thanks The ABS unit is on the engine compartment side wall under the air box. It will have a number of lines coming out of it. Given that the hydraulic fluid is leaking from behind the front left wheel, I doubt the problem is the ABS unit. The only other thing is that it may be a line connected to the Master Cylinder. There is a lot of stuff in that area so you might be overlooking it. Also, if you take the front left wheel off, you will see hard lines that are routed to the ABS unit. These lines are also susceptible to rusting because they are exposed to the elements. Perhaps the fluid is traveling down the line and is misleading you as to exactly where the leak is. Thanks for your input, I did pull off the left wheel and everything was dry in the area as far as I can see. I'm going to have to put it on a lift tomorrow, all the leakage is coming from below and towards the left center of the car. I'm not crazy about putting the car on jack stands and going under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95dev Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Actually, if the '95 is like '94, a foot behind the left front wheel will be a hard line (3/16 steel brake pipe). It's most likely close to where the brake line emerges from the fire wall area to extend to the rear. That area will be more exposed to the elements, including road salt. If it is the hard line, then let's hope it's not so bad that the brake line has to be re-plumbed to the rear wheels. I raised the car today, could not see where direct leak was coming from, but I think its coming from around the ABS unit. Is that unit located on the drivers side? Thanks The ABS unit is on the engine compartment side wall under the air box. It will have a number of lines coming out of it. Given that the hydraulic fluid is leaking from behind the front left wheel, I doubt the problem is the ABS unit. The only other thing is that it may be a line connected to the Master Cylinder. There is a lot of stuff in that area so you might be overlooking it. Also, if you take the front left wheel off, you will see hard lines that are routed to the ABS unit. These lines are also susceptible to rusting because they are exposed to the elements. Perhaps the fluid is traveling down the line and is misleading you as to exactly where the leak is. Thanks for your input, I did pull off the left wheel and everything was dry in the area as far as I can see. I'm going to have to put it on a lift tomorrow, all the leakage is coming from below and towards the left center of the car. I'm not crazy about putting the car on jack stands and going under. I brought the car to the service center today, they told me one of the brake lines from the Master to the splitter was leaking and that the other line was rusted out and about to leak. They told me the job was basically all labor ($95hr), but would not give me an estimate. Does anyone have a fair price on this Job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 No but they must be able to give you a quote, or go someplace else. What firm is this that can't give you a quote? Ill be replacing my tubing tomorrow, it appears to be the tube that runs between the rear wheels, this should be lots of fun, Ill post more info in a separate thread. I have to borrow my friend's heavy duty jack stands for the job. I think this is a difficult job and it might involve a flexible hose that is right behind the rear door. It was a matter of time, I saw this rust back in 2005, my caddyinfo name at the time was Scotty: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7452 I just noticed that Kevin said these were ISO bubble flare joints NOT double wall flare, hmmm, I have to pull the manual out, the guy at the parts shop I frequent said this was a double wall flare, the tool was about $40... Kevin? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 No but they must be able to give you a quote, or go someplace else. What firm is this that can't give you a quote? Ill be replacing my tubing tomorrow, it appears to be the tube that runs between the rear wheels, this should be lots of fun, Ill post more info in a separate thread. I have to borrow my friend's heavy duty jack stands for the job. I think this is a difficult job and it might involve a flexible hose that is right behind the rear door. It was a matter of time, I saw this rust back in 2005, my caddyinfo name at the time was Scotty: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7452 Actually, the crossover line between the rear wheels shouldn't be that difficult. If you're going to buy the brake line separately and make your own, I would suggest using a Crowfoot to remove the nuts. I purchased a small butane torch (about $16) at WalMart in the plumbing section and heated the nuts up a bit. A regular propane torch has too large of a flame. You should have plenty of room by jacking the rear up and remove the line from the two plastic clips. The metal clips that secure the nuts can be removed by using a regular screw driver and tapping them loose. I simply removed the old line, which actually broke it was so badly rusted, and then formed the new line using the old as a guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I brought the car to the service center today, they told me one of the brake lines from the Master to the splitter was leaking and that the other line was rusted out and about to leak. They told me the job was basically all labor ($95hr), but would not give me an estimate. Does anyone have a fair price on this Job? The line running from the Master Cylinder should not be difficult to replace with a lift. One line come out of the MC and then connects to a proportioning valve near the left wheel. However, the shop will have to custom make the line. Make sure you choose a shop that has some experience doing the job. Otherwise, an inexperienced shop will take more time and charge you for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 No but they must be able to give you a quote, or go someplace else. What firm is this that can't give you a quote? Ill be replacing my tubing tomorrow, it appears to be the tube that runs between the rear wheels, this should be lots of fun, Ill post more info in a separate thread. I have to borrow my friend's heavy duty jack stands for the job. I think this is a difficult job and it might involve a flexible hose that is right behind the rear door. It was a matter of time, I saw this rust back in 2005, my caddyinfo name at the time was Scotty: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7452 Actually, the crossover line between the rear wheels shouldn't be that difficult. If you're going to buy the brake line separately and make your own, I would suggest using a Crowfoot to remove the nuts. I purchased a small butane torch (about $16) at WalMart in the plumbing section and heated the nuts up a bit. A regular propane torch has too large of a flame. You should have plenty of room by jacking the rear up and remove the line from the two plastic clips. The metal clips that secure the nuts can be removed by using a regular screw driver and tapping them loose. I simply removed the old line, which actually broke it was so badly rusted, and then formed the new line using the old as a guide. Thanks Mac, that is interesting, if you look at the link I supplied from my Scotty days, I spoke of a crow's foot. I need to get under there tomorrow. Do you recall if it was a ISO bubble flare or double walled flare? Thanks Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 ISO flare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 ISO flare Thanks, another tool to buy, I have a standard flare tool, I would have had to buy either double walled or ISO anyway. If I thought I was going to keep this car, I would replace the tubing with stainless Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Good idea but how would the stainless flare? I had to replace a section of hardline on the '97 Eldo Junior owned before his STS and that's when I discovered they were ISO. I bought a fairly extensive tool kit for ISO flares at the time. Now I gotta go lookin' for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Good idea but how would the stainless flare? I had to replace a section of hardline on the '97 Eldo Junior owned before his STS and that's when I discovered they were ISO. I bought a fairly extensive tool kit for ISO flares at the time. Now I gotta go lookin' for it. This will be one of those tools that I use twice in my lifetime My son's will look at it an wonder what it is, when they clean out my stuff, It will look NEW.... There is a machine shop nearby that makes up brake lines in stainless steel, the idea kind of peaks my interest, but its overkill, if this was a 96 STS, I'd do it... I am actually quite relieved that this tubing did not BLOW at 70 MPH, the freaking parking brake does nothing at all, lets never refer to it as an EMERGENCY BRAKE ever again When I came to a stop, my blood pressure peaked at about 200 as I stopped within a pubic hair of the car in front of me... and I was only doing 10 MPH... I am surprised the cable did not brake, I stood on it Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEldo97 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Junior blew a brake line leaving work one Saturday evening. Couldn't stop and ended up on the median. He got a nasty surpirise... Of course, Dad got him back on the road. He crashed that car a few months later, the insurance settlement was for more than he paid for it and he bought his Seville STS. And I now have this ISO flare tool kit I don't use... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Thanks Mac, that is interesting, if you look at the link I supplied from my Scotty days, I spoke of a crow's foot. Ohhhh...So that's where I heard about using a crowfoot. Actually, it was you who raised my awareness of the crowfoot, but I honestly didn't remember that you mentioned the crowfoot in relation to brake line work until you reminded me with your link going back to Oct. 2005. I figured that I would suggest using the crowfoot based on my experience using it for the brake line work. But obviously my crowfoot suggestion for brake line work is 4 years 10 months late and over $80 short, because that's how much I spent on the Craftsman metric crowfoot set. So actually thanks to you for mentioning the crowfoot because it made getting the brake line nuts off a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lothos Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 You can rent the brake tool kit at decent parts stores. When I did my brake lines it was something like 100 bucks, but they give you the money back when you return it. A line wrench will come in very very handy for this too. Plan on replacing most of the brake lines. I figured on replacing one section, but another section broke, and that happened all the way back. It's not a difficult job, but it is pretty tedious. I did mine outside with a floor jack, in the winter, with blowing snow and 20 degree temps. Took me two or three days, but I had to stop because I needed new parts/tools and the store wasn't open any longer that night. Also frequent stops to warm up, and the thick gloves weren't helping. All told, it took about 8 or 10 hours of work, but I'm a total newbie and never did anything like that before. I had a buddy from a brake shop give me some tips on the phone, and I asked him price and he told me about $800 bucks to do it at his shop. WARNING: I'm a total car newbie, don't be surprised if I ask a stupid question! Just trying to learn. Cheers! 5% discount code at RockAuto.com - click here for your discount! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Thanks Mac, that is interesting, if you look at the link I supplied from my Scotty days, I spoke of a crow's foot. Ohhhh...So that's where I heard about using a crowfoot. Actually, it was you who raised my awareness of the crowfoot, but I honestly didn't remember that you mentioned the crowfoot in relation to brake line work until you reminded me with your link going back to Oct. 2005. I figured that I would suggest using the crowfoot based on my experience using it for the brake line work. But obviously my crowfoot suggestion for brake line work is 4 years 10 months late and over $80 short, because that's how much I spent on the Craftsman metric crowfoot set. So actually thanks to you for mentioning the crowfoot because it made getting the brake line nuts off a lot easier. I have a feeling that Ill get the fittings off, but the tubing will break at the fitting, we'll see Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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