Considering rebuilding my Northstar

[fox]

well gentlemen, i'm glad we're talking about removing the engine from the top. i'm not new to fwd engine removal, but that engine looks like it's shoehorned in there. i have a few questions though

1. does the balancer have to be removed before you pull the motor?

2. is there enough cleareance between the engine and the trans to get the engine out of the engine compartment through the top?

3. does the a/c compressor remain with the car and the system remain closed?

if i can pull this motor from the top without dropping the cradle, i'm home free. if it has to come out the bottom, it's trench warfare.

my 2 cents. it maybe worth nothing.

on the stud vs bolt debate.

to me, the stud is the better choice. the coarse thread remains in the block. the block is aluminum. (softer metal and fine threads don't mix too well under cetain applications)

we're trying to hold down a cylinder head AND keep our compression in the combustion chamber. the constant compression of the running engine and heat and trying to maintain a constant clamp force doesn't sit too well with me with the fine threads. at least with the coarse threads biting into the aluminum they won't be easily moved or pulled out.

the nut on the studs will be applying the clamping force down to the head maintaining the seal. most race cars have gone the stud route for years. the northstar is no ordinary motor either. it may require some extra time to do the studs, but i think it's the way to go.

second, dexcool is a no-no. i won't use it in ANYTHING. i don't plan to rebuild one of these things to run dexcool in it. i don't know what it does but it's corrosive to gaskets and metal. i've take apart a car that use it and the gasket (intake and head) were trashed with some white powder looking substance. i've never seen that with green antifreeze. use redline water wetter. excellent product for your cooling system. keeps the system clean and helps with thermal transfer.

if one you fine gents can tell me that taking this motor out the top is any harder than most front wheel drive cars, then i'm going to be ok. yet, that motor looks awfully big in a tiny engine compartment.......

[jlinde]

well gentlemen, i'm glad we're talking about removing the engine from the top. i'm not new to fwd engine removal, but that engine looks like it's shoehorned in there. i have a few questions though

1. does the balancer have to be removed before you pull the motor?

2. is there enough cleareance between the engine and the trans to get the engine out of the engine compartment through the top?

3. does the a/c compressor remain with the car and the system remain closed?

if i can pull this motor from the top without dropping the cradle, i'm home free. if it has to come out the bottom, it's trench warfare.

my 2 cents. it maybe worth nothing.

on the stud vs bolt debate.

to me, the stud is the better choice. the coarse thread remains in the block. the block is aluminum. (softer metal and fine threads don't mix too well under cetain applications)

we're trying to hold down a cylinder head AND keep our compression in the combustion chamber. the constant compression of the running engine and heat and trying to maintain a constant clamp force doesn't sit too well with me with the fine threads. at least with the coarse threads biting into the aluminum they won't be easily moved or pulled out.

the nut on the studs will be applying the clamping force down to the head maintaining the seal. most race cars have gone the stud route for years. the northstar is no ordinary motor either. it may require some extra time to do the studs, but i think it's the way to go.

second, dexcool is a no-no. i won't use it in ANYTHING. i don't plan to rebuild one of these things to run dexcool in it. i don't know what it does but it's corrosive to gaskets and metal. i've take apart a car that use it and the gasket (intake and head) were trashed with some white powder looking substance. i've never seen that with green antifreeze. use redline water wetter. excellent product for your cooling system. keeps the system clean and helps with thermal transfer.

if one you fine gents can tell me that taking this motor out the top is any harder than most front wheel drive cars, then i'm going to be ok. yet, that motor looks awfully big in a tiny engine compartment.......

I removed a 99 STS engine from the top. I suppose the 98 has the same body and engine mounts as the 99. I removed everything I could up front

like radiator, all ac parts, alternator etc etc (to refill the ac 134a does not cost that much not even here in Sweden). I followed the manual but that does not describe

how to lift only the engine up through the engine compartment but only how to remove it from the cradle. The RH engine mount is tricky to remove and to get the

engine separated enough from transmission I took the crankshaft damper bolt away (not the damper) -remember to mark flywheel-torque converter position.

It would have helped to remove the wiper motor with some connected parts but I discovered that too late. It was in all an interesting job and I did it

because the engine had to be timeserted. My garage space is limited but I have a very nice working engine lift (air driven) so I had to use this lift method.

/Jan L

[fox]

jl, thanks for the information.

you removed the engine from the top? so this is somewhat a job one could tackle at home without a lift? i understand that if i'd have it my way, i would have a garagea and a lift to just lift the body off the cradle. yet, most of us truly don't have access to that sort of thing.

the repair itself doesn't bother me, it's the removal of the engine that i'm a bit concerned with. if it can be done, i'm going to make it happen. i just don't want to get in there to find out i'm going have to drop the cradle.

another question. how hard is it to just remove the transmission? has anyone done that? i have a gut feeling the cradle HAS to be lowered for that one.............

[BodybyFisher]

Have you verified that your head gaskets are bad? If the head gaskets are OK, then you could pull the trans and replace the case half seal with the engine in the car. The bearings should be able to be replaced with the engine in the car as well. I would think you could check the cams by pulling the cam covers - mic the cams without removing them.

The tech that used to frequent this site replaced case half seals by removing the trans in order to access the oil pan and case half seals.

I have not done any extensive testing yet, but I have a really bad miss that goes away after a few minutes, coolant smell, and steam out of the exhaust on start up and coolant loss and overheating in 75 degree weather that goes to 235 degrees in moderate traffic.

Im going to yank the engine and tear it down, the question is when.

Kevin how difficult was it to remove the engine from the top? Did you put your NS on an engine stand?

Mike, It wasn't that bad to pull the engine from the top. Instead of removing the hood, I removed the right side wiper and disconnected the hood support struts. That allowed me to raise the hood to a vertical position where I tied it off to my garage door track. I'm not sure if that will work for the Deville but it is worth a try - less risk of damaging the hood. If you do need to remove the hood, be sure to have a helper.

I put my engine on a stand. It made it so much easier to do the work. I needed to buy bolts that were longer than the engine to trans. bolts to do the job. I can measure them up for you and post back. You will also need some spacers so the engine stand brackets don't contact the trans. alignment dowels.

Thanks Kevin, I recall that you tied your hood up. Glad to hear it was not bad to remove the engine from the top.

A thought, once I remove the engine, I guess I could put the hub bearings back on (without the axles) put the tires back on, and roll the car out of the garage, what do you think about that thought?

Hi, I have done one timesert on my 93 Eldo with just lifting the engine only and one on a 94 STS where the engine and trans were out of the car

when I bought it so I put in a replacement engine and trans from above. The axles were out of the car and it was easy to put them back and the car

was rollable. I think I had to take the master cylinder away in this case.

My garage will not allow enough lifting of the body so I had to use this method.

I have also lifted a 99 Northstar engine but space is much more limited on those newer ones.(Had to take the crank balancer bolt away)

Just wanted to tell you that it wasn't too timeconsuming to lift the engine only.

Good luck./Jan L

Jan, thanks for the info, Mike

[jlinde]

jl, thanks for the information.

you removed the engine from the top? so this is somewhat a job one could tackle at home without a lift? i understand that if i'd have it my way, i would have a garagea and a lift to just lift the body off the cradle. yet, most of us truly don't have access to that sort of thing.

the repair itself doesn't bother me, it's the removal of the engine that i'm a bit concerned with. if it can be done, i'm going to make it happen. i just don't want to get in there to find out i'm going have to drop the cradle.

another question. how hard is it to just remove the transmission? has anyone done that? i have a gut feeling the cradle HAS to be lowered for that one.............

My terminologi is not the best - I meant an engine hoist when I said lift - and that hoist and a simple jack to reach under the front is what I have used to remove

and install the engine from the top in a 99 STS. To remove just the transmission I think the manual has the procedure for that and it means that you have to hang

and leave the engine in the engine compartment and lower the rest (cradle and trans).

/Jan L.

[KHE]

second, dexcool is a no-no. i won't use it in ANYTHING. i don't plan to rebuild one of these things to run dexcool in it. i don't know what it does but it's corrosive to gaskets and metal. i've take apart a car that use it and the gasket (intake and head) were trashed with some white powder looking substance. i've never seen that with green antifreeze. use redline water wetter. excellent product for your cooling system. keeps the system clean and helps with thermal transfer.

A bit of misinformation here... If it was an aluminum engine you took apart, the white powder was probably aluminum corrosion from not having the coolant changed often enough. I've seen much worse with neglected green coolant. A '95 Olds Aurora that had the coolant hose nipples rotted away from corrosion and the system was plugged up like mud from neglect.

Dexcool and green antifreeze are the same base - ethylene glycol. The only difference besides the color is the corrosion inhibitor package. The corrosion inhibitors in DexCool last 5 years vs 2 years with silicated coolants. The corrosion inhibitor package in DexCool is not abrasive like the silicates in green coolant. Over time, the silicates will shorten the life of waterpump seals.

Once you put silicated antifreeze in a system, the silicates plate the internals of the cooling system. If Dex is then installed, the silicates that have plated the internals of the cooling system will deplete the corrosion inhibitiors in the Dex, requiring it to be replaced every two years. There is no way to remove the silicate plating once green antifreeze is introduced into the system.

Silicated antifreeze is getting difficult to find these days - almost all antifreeze is "long life silicate free".

There is no need for any additive in the coolant besides the GM cooling system supplement.

[BodybyFisher]

jl, thanks for the information.

you removed the engine from the top? so this is somewhat a job one could tackle at home without a lift? i understand that if i'd have it my way, i would have a garagea and a lift to just lift the body off the cradle. yet, most of us truly don't have access to that sort of thing.

the repair itself doesn't bother me, it's the removal of the engine that i'm a bit concerned with. if it can be done, i'm going to make it happen. i just don't want to get in there to find out i'm going have to drop the cradle.

another question. how hard is it to just remove the transmission? has anyone done that? i have a gut feeling the cradle HAS to be lowered for that one.............

My terminologi is not the best - I meant an engine hoist when I said lift - and that hoist and a simple jack to reach under the front is what I have used to remove

and install the engine from the top in a 99 STS. To remove just the transmission I think the manual has the procedure for that and it means that you have to hang

and leave the engine in the engine compartment and lower the rest (cradle and trans).

/Jan L.

Thanks Jan, I am glad to see this is possible. When you pulled the engine from the top, did you support the tranny with a floor jack or similar support?

[jlinde]

jl, thanks for the information.

you removed the engine from the top? so this is somewhat a job one could tackle at home without a lift? i understand that if i'd have it my way, i would have a garagea and a lift to just lift the body off the cradle. yet, most of us truly don't have access to that sort of thing.

the repair itself doesn't bother me, it's the removal of the engine that i'm a bit concerned with. if it can be done, i'm going to make it happen. i just don't want to get in there to find out i'm going have to drop the cradle.

another question. how hard is it to just remove the transmission? has anyone done that? i have a gut feeling the cradle HAS to be lowered for that one.............

My terminologi is not the best - I meant an engine hoist when I said lift - and that hoist and a simple jack to reach under the front is what I have used to remove

and install the engine from the top in a 99 STS. To remove just the transmission I think the manual has the procedure for that and it means that you have to hang

and leave the engine in the engine compartment and lower the rest (cradle and trans).

/Jan L.

Thanks Jan, I am glad to see this is possible. When you pulled the engine from the top, did you support the tranny with a floor jack or similar support?

If I remember right (I am down in Croatia just now touring with the 93 Eldo TC) the transmission of at least 93-94 Eldo-STS sits OK with its 2 mounts:

the engine has just one own mount =the front one. So I think that I did not have to use any extra support - just a jack and piece of wood when aligning

engine and trans upon installing engine.

/Jan L

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Jan, enjoy and have a safe trip!

[Cadillac Jim]

Based on what I have seen and heard, I would never put green antifreeze in an aluminum engine, or for that matter any car that has aluminum exposed to the coolant anywhere, including the radiator. Since there is no reason not to put red in an iron engine with a copper radiator, and there is no compelling price difference, I see no reason to use green at all anymore.

Some aftermarket antifreeze manufacturers are using silicate-free formulations designed to be fully compatible with red or green (silicate based) antifreeze and may be colored blue or blue-green, which may be difficult to tell from ordinary gree. When in doubt, read the label. If it's recommended for over two years between radiator flushes, it isn't silicate-based.

[MrEldo97]

Based on what I have seen and heard, I would never put green antifreeze in an aluminum engine, or for that matter any car that has aluminum exposed to the coolant anywhere, including the radiator. Since there is no reason not to put red in an iron engine with a copper radiator, and there is no compelling price difference, I see no reason to use green at all anymore.

Some aftermarket antifreeze manufacturers are using silicate-free formulations designed to be fully compatible with red or green (silicate based) antifreeze and may be colored blue or blue-green, which may be difficult to tell from ordinary gree. When in doubt, read the label. If it's recommended for over two years between radiator flushes, it isn't silicate-based.

I tend to agree. I use only Dexcool in my Eldorado and I have to use green in my XJS.

I will be performing cooling system maintenance on the XJS this fall – new belts, hoses and thermostat and a green compatible, non-silicate coolant. If anyone has any brand name suggestions for a green alternative I’m all ears.

[Jan Olsson]

to me, the stud is the better choice. the coarse thread remains in the block. the block is aluminum. (softer metal and fine threads don't mix too well under cetain applications)

we're trying to hold down a cylinder head AND keep our compression in the combustion chamber. the constant compression of the running engine and heat and trying to maintain a constant clamp force doesn't sit too well with me with the fine threads. at least with the coarse threads biting into the aluminum they won't be easily moved or pulled out.

The Time-sert has a much larger od than the bolt itself (and the stud too I belive?), thus making it much stronger than the original joint.

I agree that coarser threads "bite" more than finer threads, but the single biggest reason for blown gaskets is neglected coolant. Most of us here know the importance of maintaining the coolant system but we also know that gaskets blow anyway because of thermal cycling.

You assume that the bolts pull and then the gasket blows...

second, dexcool is a no-no. i won't use it in ANYTHING. i don't plan to rebuild one of these things to run dexcool in it. i don't know what it does but it's corrosive to gaskets and metal. i've take apart a car that use it and the gasket (intake and head) were trashed with some white powder looking substance. i've never seen that with green antifreeze. use redline water wetter. excellent product for your cooling system. keeps the system clean and helps with thermal transfer.

We also know that "problems" with Dex shows under these conditions: cast-iron block, to low coolant level, sealant tabs

When using Dex it is important to keep the system filled since there are no corrosion inhibiters in work when not exposed to Dex (the green stuff had silicates that formed a coating over all surfaces preventing corrosion but it also needed a change more frequently)

[fox]

guys thanks for all the information.

personally speaking, i'd rather change the fluids often than leave them in there extended periods of time. i suppose everything has it's place depending on your perspective. i just like to fix it and forget it.

pertaining to the bolt/ timesert vs. stud issue. the link to northstarperformance.com was informative. i think this is the route i'm going to take. when i get started i'll try to post pic's of the whole ordeal. thanks again everyone......

http://www.northstarperformance.com

[BodybyFisher]

For what its worth, the coolant in my Northstar has been changed often. I knew the prior owner and instructed him to change it, plus he had a water pump go on him.

I was thinking to myself yesterday, so much for not changing the coolant being the sole reason for pulled head bolts.

[BodybyFisher]

By the way, I have decided to use the time-sert method to repair my engine should I tear it apart as a result of the guru, KHE and Jan.

[Cadillac Jim]

Yeah, I agree that Timeserts are a good idea for a DIY daily driver motor. If I was refreshing internals on a chrfab sand car engine with twin turbos and 500 hp, I would definitely use studs. I do think that NorthStarPerformance is a great option as a rebuilder for daily driver motors, though; I just think that studs are a bit hard to deal with without a couple of helpers, and experience is something I value in touchy jobs like threading aluminum heads on studs.

[BodybyFisher]

Yeah, I agree that Timeserts are a good idea for a DIY daily driver motor. If I was refreshing internals on a chrfab sand car engine with twin turbos and 500 hp, I would definitely use studs. I do think that NorthStarPerformance is a great option as a rebuilder for daily driver motors, though; I just think that studs are a bit hard to deal with without a couple of helpers, and experience is something I value in touchy jobs like threading aluminum heads on studs.

Jim, am I misunderstanding your statement here and above? You were saying that helpers would be needed to hold the head? The block gets drilled and studded, look at my photo in this thread with the studs. In either case the block is drilled threaded. Did I misunderstand you?

[fox]

Based on what I have seen and heard, I would never put green antifreeze in an aluminum engine, or for that matter any car that has aluminum exposed to the coolant anywhere, including the radiator. Since there is no reason not to put red in an iron engine with a copper radiator, and there is no compelling price difference, I see no reason to use green at all anymore.

Some aftermarket antifreeze manufacturers are using silicate-free formulations designed to be fully compatible with red or green (silicate based) antifreeze and may be colored blue or blue-green, which may be difficult to tell from ordinary gree. When in doubt, read the label. If it's recommended for over two years between radiator flushes, it isn't silicate-based.

I tend to agree. I use only Dexcool in my Eldorado and I have to use green in my XJS.

I will be performing cooling system maintenance on the XJS this fall – new belts, hoses and thermostat and a green compatible, non-silicate coolant. If anyone has any brand name suggestions for a green alternative I’m all ears.

hi guys,

pertaining to the antifreeze thing. correct me if i'm wrong. my quad 4 is a 93. it has an aluminum head on it with a cast iron block. the coolant of that era was green wasn't it?

[fox]

Yeah, I agree that Timeserts are a good idea for a DIY daily driver motor. If I was refreshing internals on a chrfab sand car engine with twin turbos and 500 hp, I would definitely use studs. I do think that NorthStarPerformance is a great option as a rebuilder for daily driver motors, though; I just think that studs are a bit hard to deal with without a couple of helpers, and experience is something I value in touchy jobs like threading aluminum heads on studs.

hi jim,

i understand what you're saying about the studs and sliding the head over the studs to secure them to the block. ESPECIALLY if the heads are big and bulky. yet, the only reason I'd go that route is the nature of this motor. this motor is running 10:1 compression, just like my quad. the difference with the quad is that the block is cast iron, but i STILL may stud it to ensure sufficient clamping of the cylinder head. if the motor is out of the car and you have adequate room to work. i'm going to put the best possible fix and be done with it. that's just me guys. thanks again

[KHE]

Yeah, I agree that Timeserts are a good idea for a DIY daily driver motor. If I was refreshing internals on a chrfab sand car engine with twin turbos and 500 hp, I would definitely use studs. I do think that NorthStarPerformance is a great option as a rebuilder for daily driver motors, though; I just think that studs are a bit hard to deal with without a couple of helpers, and experience is something I value in touchy jobs like threading aluminum heads on studs.

Jim, am I misunderstanding your statement here and above? You were saying that helpers would be needed to hold the head? The block gets drilled and studded, look at my photo in this thread with the studs. In either case the block is drilled threaded. Did I misunderstand you?

With the studs, a helper would be handy in order to guide the head over the 10 studs. One wrong move and the deck surface of the head could get nicked by the studs.

Based on what I have seen and heard, I would never put green antifreeze in an aluminum engine, or for that matter any car that has aluminum exposed to the coolant anywhere, including the radiator. Since there is no reason not to put red in an iron engine with a copper radiator, and there is no compelling price difference, I see no reason to use green at all anymore.

Some aftermarket antifreeze manufacturers are using silicate-free formulations designed to be fully compatible with red or green (silicate based) antifreeze and may be colored blue or blue-green, which may be difficult to tell from ordinary gree. When in doubt, read the label. If it's recommended for over two years between radiator flushes, it isn't silicate-based.

I tend to agree. I use only Dexcool in my Eldorado and I have to use green in my XJS.

I will be performing cooling system maintenance on the XJS this fall – new belts, hoses and thermostat and a green compatible, non-silicate coolant. If anyone has any brand name suggestions for a green alternative I’m all ears.

hi guys,

pertaining to the antifreeze thing. correct me if i'm wrong. my quad 4 is a 93. it has an aluminum head on it with a cast iron block. the coolant of that era was green wasn't it?

Yes - the coolant was green in that era. DexCool started with the '96 model year.

[fox]

so, then why not run the green antifreeze? you may just have to change it more often than the dexcool, but the issues that the dexcool has presented, i'd rather run the green and avoid the issues altogether.

i have a 96 grand am gt with a 3100 v6, dexcool car. after i did both head gaskets, ported the heads, swapped to the big port 2000+ up 3100 intake, ported the intake, there was no way i was running dexcool after the damage i saw to the gaskets and the metal. the northstar is going green.........

[Cadillac Jim]

Yes, I had a 1990 Grand Am GT with a Quad 4 HO with the Level III suspension and I drove it seven years. The only major problems that I had with it were an ECM that went bad after about a year, a cracked head at three years, both fixed free, and the rear axle clamp getting loose once (a tire dealer fixed it). I had reason to believe that the head wasn't really cracked, but that the tech simply wrote up the job to get a new head for his garage project; the head was just as grimy when I got home as when I took it in the day before; there was no sign of new aluminum anywhere, and that tech was gone the next time I visited that dealer. The plastic one-piece dashboard eventually cracked, as did one of the plastic opera window frames, and there were other indications that keeping this car nice was going to be difficult, and I traded it for my current Cadillac.

Yes, my Quad 4 had green antifreeze, of course. If I had that car today, when the coolant's two years was up I would flush the system and put red in it. Please read the Wikpedia paragraph on OAT, the anti-corrosion component of DexCool. After a lot of fuss and lawsuits claiming that DexCool ate people's engines, GM technicians found that damage could snowball after an engine was run for an extended period with low coolant, and that every case that had been presented to them appeared to be an example of this. All this has come and gone, yet the whole world has eschewed silicate antifreeze and now uses OAT or a derivative or combination antioxidant. If OAT was a problem at all and there was true substance in "all these problems" OAT would have been modified or superseded by now.

Note that I didn't say that someone else, or anyone else, should forget green antifreeze, just that I would myself.

Please see KHE's comment on studs. Northstar heads, assembled and ready to install, are quite expensive and I don't like staggering disappointments like scratched deck surfaces. But, again, that's just me. If I ran a blown motor that I took down a lot, I would definitely use studs for the same reason you see them on other race engines. But, from a guru quote early in this thread, bolts are just fine for this engine as used in Cadillacs while studs would slow production and assembly. I believe that, in addition, a certain percentage of heads would be discarded when they were scratched unless that process was 100% mechanized.

[BodybyFisher]

Jim's Statement:

"Also, how would you like to be by yourself trying to thread a head onto those studs, knowing full well that a 1/4" mistake will scratch the head over the compression seal? It's a four-man job if done by hand, one on each end of the head to hold, one on each end of the head to guide"

Ok, I understand now what you were saying Jim, now that I re-read this and with the other guys refocusing my thinking, thanks

Yes I would imagine it would be hard to so this yourself blind, and I dont trust my wife and 11 yo daughter

[jackc]

....... to repair my engine should I tear it apart................

Mike - You know its your calling, your destiny to tear this engine apart!!! You'll study every last piece in detail. You'll report on how remarkably good the conditon of 98% of it is. You'll fix the bad 2%, and your caddy will live on!

[BodybyFisher]

....... to repair my engine should I tear it apart................

Mike - You know its your calling, your destiny to tear this engine apart!!! You'll study every last piece in detail. You'll report on how remarkably good the conditon of 98% of it is. You'll fix the bad 2%, and your caddy will live on!

You just brough tears to my eyes Jack!