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03 CTS Wont start on warm engine Help Please COdes included


BW5234US

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Hi I am new to the forums I have had my CTS for about 2 years and have recently been having some serious problems. Recently I began having issues with getting my car to start. Now when my engine is cold it starts right up no problem no hesitation nothing. I can run the car as long as I like with no performance problems. Now here is where the fun starts. If I run the car for say 5 to 10 minutes (city driving) and shut it off it starts up fine. If I ru the car longer then say 10 or 15 minutes and shut the car off I cant get it to restart for a while. When I go to start the car it will try to turn over but it will keep turning but wont turn over. Now if I let the car sit for anywhere from 10 minutes to 30 minutes and try starting it a few times the car will eventually start. The longer I run the car the longer it takes to get it to start back up. So if I run it for say an hour it will take at least a 1/2 hour before I can get it to start again. Once started up again it runs perfectly. When it first started I was told could be the fuel filter or the drivers side o2 sensor also had mentioned to me its possible its the Fuel tanks Sock. so I had first 2 replaced. My dealer tells me its possible it could be the ECM/PCM module but their not really sure about that yet. I am on a limited budget and cant just go replacing random parts until we get it right. I have the non nav system so I went and did the F1 and F6 codes check and got the following

ARS 25744211 0951 *

IRC 25750438 0801 *

MSM 157836981686 *

ECM

AMP 25751424 3540

CCP 25751076 3230

DDM 25745823 0808

DDS 25748573 248A

DIM 25740336 2080

EBC 25746910 6008

IPC 25742936 2243

LRD 25745821 0808

ONS 22692100 5335

PDM 25745823 0808

RIM 25744802 2412

RRD 25745821 0808

SDM 25746856 F022

VTD25748932 3010

i know its quite a lengthy list but Im having a hard time finding a resource that describes these codes in this format. I would really like to get this fixed ASAP its beginning to be a real problem and I really dont want it to do more damage before I can get this fixed. Thanks in advance for your help

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you say it will turn over but not turn over? maybe you meant to say it will crank but not fire (start)? has the dealer looked at the car or have you just talked about it to them? a diagnosis is fairly straightforward. is the motor getting spark and fuel when it won't start? a good shop can determine this and take the next step.

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Not knowing anything about the CTS, however, I can give you a suggestion based on previous experience dealing with the same type of symptoms you're having. My brother's Park Avenue did the same thing where it would run fine when cold but when warmed to normal temp it would suddenly shut down and it could not be restarted until it cooled for about 20 minutes.

It turned out the problem was the crankshaft position sensor.

Here is a thread "Cadillac Forums: Crankshaft Position Sensor - How hard to replace?", which seems to verify the crankshaft position sensor my be the problem.

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you say it will turn over but not turn over? maybe you meant to say it will crank but not fire (start)? has the dealer looked at the car or have you just talked about it to them? a diagnosis is fairly straightforward. is the motor getting spark and fuel when it won't start? a good shop can determine this and take the next step.

You are correct thanks for correcting the poor choice of words. So yes it cranks but doesnt fire. I have had it into the dealership and this is where the confussion has taken place. Its kinda a wierd service dept. Team 1 did the fuel filter said that would "probably fix it" Thats when they told me if that wasnt it it would "probably be the fuel sock" So they replaced the filter and I still had the same problem. So took the car back in they found the codes leading towards the ecm/pcm but couldnt guarantee that would fix the problem either. Im more then happy to pay for service and will pay to fix the problem but Im not exactly swimming in cash at this point and dont really care to randomly replace parts that may or may not fix this starting issue. Thanks again for your help.

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Is this a Cadillac dealer?

Has anyone suggested that your Fuel Pressure Regulator is the problem?

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Is this a Cadillac dealer?

Has anyone suggested that your Fuel Pressure Regulator is the problem?

Yes this is a Cadillac dealer, no one has mentioned the Fuel Pressure Regulator. I am really torn as to if this is a fuel problem or if its a electrical issue. It almost seems like its just not getting fuel when you go to start but you would think that it would have issues while driving or why would I suddenly have fuel 30 minutes latter after cooling off? I have been doing quite a bit of searching on this topic and it looks like this is a common problem but I have yet to find the solution. See a lot suggesting the Crankshaft Position Sensor but it seems like that is more of an issue where the car stops running while driving. As to the codes listed above it looks like the 4 codes that have the Astrix on the top I haven't found out what the ARS code stands for. The IRC states its the Integrated Radio Module adn the MSM is the Memory Seat Module as a side note Have never had any issues with either of those. Thanks again for your help.

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I dont know the CTS, but typically starting problems on a warmed up car typically is a leaky FPR, see if yours has a vacuum hose attached to it...

Next time you have a problem starting it, hold your foot to the floor and see if that makes a difference

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I dont know the CTS, but typically starting problems on a warmed up car typically is a leaky FPR, see if yours has a vacuum hose attached to it...

Next time you have a problem starting it, hold your foot to the floor and see if that makes a difference

I am definitely going to check out this FPR after doing some searching this looks like it could definiltyl be the culprit. Im going to go and see if I can figure out where its located. BTW holing the pedal to the floor does nothing to fix the problem. Going to see what other info I can find on this as well then I will tackle to project. From what i have seen it looks like a pretty simple fix.

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Just so you know my reasoning, holding the pedal down to the floor turns off the INJECTORS to clear a flooding condition

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Laundry list of trouble codes is usually caused with bad grounds, battery cables, contacts. Check and fix that first before replacing any parts.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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So i was out checking this out and found the relief valve. It doesnt appear that the FPR is readily accessible from what I can see it looks like its at the back of the engine w/ very little asses ability. Im wondering if there's a certain procedure to follow for this replacement or if this is something best left to a mechanic. Also was wondering when the cars under pressure and not starting will bleeding that valve take the pressure off the system and aid in starting the car? I took the cap off and pressed the pin in and nothing came out no air no gas the car has been sitting for about 2 hours though

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I'd wouldnt advise pushing and pulling anything you (and I) are not familiar with....

The FPR has been known to cause HOT starting problems, but not as extreme as what you are talking about, I was trying to ELIMINATE that as a cause. This certainly seems to be a heat related problem, but we need to figure out your codes. If I were you, I would put a fuel pressure gage on your engine when this happens to see what your fuel pressure is, when this problem occurs. Hopefully Logan will pop in and help, he is familiar with CAN, I am not sure how to read those codes.

Where did you get those codes from? What kind of reader? I think your PCM uses a CAN system, which is beyond the OBDII spec.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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So after spending the better part of the day google searching The FPR it appears that is the problem I am having with this car. It seems this is fairly common issue with this car. So I have a couple of questions before I actually go out and buy this part. First I still have a laundry list of error codes that need to still get resolved at some point. By replacing the Fuel Pressure regulator will this possibly cure some of my error codes? If not will the errors mess up the replacement of this part? I wouldn't think so considering its a mechanical part? I am guessing I have had these error codes for some time and have never had any other problems w/ the car. Is there somewhere I can go to convert the codes to the more common format? And finally I have searched for hours to find some pics of the FPR replacement on this car and haven't found a single picture. Im fairly sure I know where it is but you cant really see it as its behind the engine. Any guidance in saving me a whole bunch of grief while swapping this out would be much appreciated. Thanks again for all of your help

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I'd wouldnt advise pushing and pulling anything you (and I) are not familiar with....

The FPR has been known to cause HOT starting problems, but not as extreme as what you are talking about, I was trying to ELIMINATE that as a cause. This certainly seems to be a heat related problem, but we need to figure out your codes. If I were you, I would put a fuel pressure gage on your engine when this happens to see what your fuel pressure is, when this problem occurs. Hopefully Logan will pop in and help, he is familiar with CAN, I am not sure how to read those codes.

Where did you get those codes from? What kind of reader? I think your PCM uses a CAN system, which is beyond the OBDII spec.

The codes came from hitting f1 and f6 at the same time on the radio. It seems to be a documented method to obtain them on this car. I will put the gauge on it after I get done w/ work tonight and see what it says. I believe its supposed to be around 45 psi is it not? And I agree I dont want to have to go buying 1000's of parts or even hundreds of parts that arnt a problem so I would like to get this right the first time. The thing I found interesting is that when searching this hot start issue on google I found a pretty good number of responses stating this was the problem. Thanks again

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A FPR will NOT set a code.

Stay with us, post your results and if you find info on how to decipher those codes let us know, I think Logan can help

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I just came home from lunch tonight cold engine car died 3 miles into the trip at a stop sign no real rime or reason. This has happened maybe 2 or 3 times I wasnt really sure of the significance of this until I came across some of the reading I have found on the FPR. I will keep you posted. I figure based on everything I have read this seems like a pretty good place to start

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This appears to be a new symptom, and this symptom sounds like a crank sensor

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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So I figured out on the radio when it displays the codes you can actually select each individual error code by pushing the radio knob thats marked select so here are the individual codes broken down. As I have come to know the laundry list that I originally posted do not apply only the ones with an astricks have actual errors so here they are as follows OBSD's

ARS 25744211 0951 *

B1327H Device Power Circuit Low DDM, DDS, FPDM, LRDM, RRDM

U1016H Lost Communication With Engine/Powertrain Control Module (ECM/PCM) AMP, ARS, DDM, DDSA, DIM, EBCM, FPDM, HV

IRC 25750438 0801 *

B1327H Device Power Circuit Low DDM, DDS, FPDM, LRDM, RRDM

MSM 157836981686 *

B2365H Seat Rear Vertical Position Sensor Circuit MSM

B236CH NOT FOUND

U1000H Class 2 Data Link Malfunction AMP, ARS, DDM, DDSA, DIM, EBCM, FPDM, HV

U1016H Lost Communication With Engine/Powertrain Control Module (ECM/PCM) AMP, ARS, DDM, DDSA, DIM, EBCM, FPDM, HV

ECM

P0155C P0155 HO2S Heater Performance Bank 2 Sensor 1 THIS HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH IN 2 WEEKS AGO

P0154H HO2S Circuit Insufficient Activity Bank 2 Sensor 1 PCM

P0128H Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Below Thermostat Regulating Temperature ECM/PCM

P0050C HO2S Heater Control Circuit Bank 2 Sensor 1 ECM

SO HERES WHAT i FOUND for the code descriptions when I looked them up the code search didnt take the last letter on any of the codes I dont know if thats important or not. Any who thanks now I want to make sure I have the right sensor for the O2 sensor I replaced the one on the drivers side If I remember correct I believe that bank 2 so that should clear out those codes. Is it safe for me to clear those and see if it sets them off again? I did use a high quality o'2 sensor it was a Bousch Any who interested to here what your thoughts are with the new insight. Thanks again for all of your help I am truly greatful

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You need to check the crank sensor and also if your coolant temp sensor is going bad it can cause the pcm to think the engine is cold when it is really warm and cause it to flood with fuel i have seen this happen the coolant sensor is cheap and easy to replace especially since you have a code for it i would change it first then check the crank pos sensor if problem continue

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Im wondering about this crank sensor issue I noticed in a couple of different forums that people that were having problems with the crank sensor were getting the following codes P0335 & P0337 Now these are actually codes taht I dont have Im wondering if there is any significance to this

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Listen, you are having some serious codes above. The LOW POWER P1327 concerns me, low power is a serious problem, clean your battery cables and have your battery load tested

In addition, you are having O2 sensor issues and temp sensor issues

What is the history of this car, was any serious engine or tranny work done? (ie, engine tranny removed?)

Stick with the codes are you getting and try to resolve them

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Listen, you are having some serious codes above. The LOW POWER P1327 concerns me, low power is a serious problem, clean your battery cables and have your battery load tested

In addition, you are having O2 sensor issues and temp sensor issues

What is the history of this car, was any serious engine or tranny work done? (ie, engine tranny removed?)

Stick with the codes are you getting and try to resolve them

Its funny you mentioned the history of the car. I was just thinking about that very thing. I think some of these codes can probably be eliminated but not all of them. Im no expert so please correct me if I am wrong but do these codes need to be manually reset? or will they stay in memory until cleared out? If they stay in memory that will explain most of these codes so here is a little background.

To my knowledge there have been no major mechanical issues with this car. It was a GM reacquired vehicle which I bought with about 40K on it 2 years ago. I have 2 dig out the paper work but I recall one of the items being the memory seat module. The other reason was the stability system. Both of these items work perfectly. So maybe the factory didn't reset the code after going through the vehicle? As to the o2 sensor I just replaced that one now I know that had not been replaced since I owned the car and I replaced it myself didnt know how to reset that code. As top the temp sensor we had a very cold winter had probably 30 days below zero this year. On one of those days my car got real hot and I discovered I was low on coolant I found this out very quickly so car didnt run more then a few minutes till I got the fluid filled. Now wouldn't that have triped a code? Again was never reset. With the exception of these few minor issues I have had no other problems with this car maintenance is performed regularly. The car now has 105K on it. I just reset the codes so im interested in seeing what happens with the codes from here. Im not sure if any of this gives any insight or if it confuses things. Seems like it is probably either the FPR or more likely the Crank sensor. After researching this problem it seems like these were both pretty common for this car.

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Listen, you are having some serious codes above. The LOW POWER P1327 concerns me, low power is a serious problem, clean your battery cables and have your battery load tested

In addition, you are having O2 sensor issues and temp sensor issues

What is the history of this car, was any serious engine or tranny work done? (ie, engine tranny removed?)

Stick with the codes are you getting and try to resolve them

Oh not sure if this is applicable to the low power the other day when the car shut off I had left it running and all the electrical was going, drained the battery and had to jump the car. Battery is less then a year old terminals are perfect. would that trip that code possibly?

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Ok so here we go down the code path. As i mentioned i cleared out my codes a short time ago. When back out to start the car and no start so I went to check the codes again and here is what I got

u 1016h

ecm

p0155c

p0050c

p0335c

some new ones going to go check them out

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