90IROC Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hey all I have a very strange situation with my 1997 Seville STS. It turns over, cranks, every thing works however the car will not start. Seems like no spark or fuel. The dash message system says "Theft System Problem" and "Car May Not Restart" I read up on the keys, VATs and so on but don't think this is what I am dealing with when I compare my no start to others I found thru searching this site. I checked the codes and get a bunch of them under various groupings like PZM, MSM, MMM, IPC, TCS and so on. the numbers are the same in each group they are u1255, b1276 b1982, u1016, b1982, b1983 Anyone have an idea of what these indicate? Or know of a web page I could go to to find out? thx Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hey all I have a very strange situation with my 1997 Seville STS. It turns over, cranks, every thing works however the car will not start. Seems like no spark or fuel. The dash message system says "Theft System Problem" and "Car May Not Restart" I read up on the keys, VATs and so on but don't think this is what I am dealing with when I compare my no start to others I found thru searching this site. I checked the codes and get a bunch of them under various groupings like PZM, MSM, MMM, IPC, TCS and so on. the numbers are the same in each group they are u1255, b1276 b1982, u1016, b1982, b1983 Anyone have an idea of what these indicate? Or know of a web page I could go to to find out? thx Richard found this poking around the web B1982 Driver's Door Unlock Relay Circuit Failure B1983 Driver's Door Unlock Relay Circuit Short to Battery not sure what it means. Any help is appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hey all I have a very strange situation with my 1997 Seville STS. It turns over, cranks, every thing works however the car will not start. Seems like no spark or fuel. The dash message system says "Theft System Problem" and "Car May Not Restart" I read up on the keys, VATs and so on but don't think this is what I am dealing with when I compare my no start to others I found thru searching this site. I checked the codes and get a bunch of them under various groupings like PZM, MSM, MMM, IPC, TCS and so on. the numbers are the same in each group they are u1255, b1276 b1982, u1016, b1982, b1983 Anyone have an idea of what these indicate? Or know of a web page I could go to to find out? thx Richard found this poking around the web B1982 Driver's Door Unlock Relay Circuit Failure B1983 Driver's Door Unlock Relay Circuit Short to Battery not sure what it means. Any help is appreciated After clearing all codes in all 12 OBD2 categories and then trying to start it again I have a clearer, more accurate picture now of what is going on. I put this sheet together to help explain it to myself. IPC B2750 "B2750 PASSKey Data Communication Failure" IPC U1255 "U1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction" ACM U1255 "U1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction" TCS C1276 "C1276 Delivered Torque Signal Circuit Malfunction" TCS U1255 "U1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction" RSS C1717 "C1717 RF Damper Actuator Open CKT" PZM U1255 "U1255 Class 2 Communication Malfunction" MMM U1016 "U1016 Loss of Class 2 Communication with VCM" MMM U1016 "U1016 Loss of Communications with PCM" b = body codes c = chassis codes u = network codes I think I have a PASSkey problem, most probably the cylinder. I have two sets of keys one used and one new -- neither work. I tried the WD40 in the cylinder but no effect. I think the network codes are the result of the system shutting itself down due to PASSkey failure (it must think it is being stolen). The C1717 code is no surprise as I have after market struts giving false signals to the ECM. Probably a loose wire. The other chassis code "C1276 Delivered Torque Signal Circuit Malfunction" is very curious, it would make sense this shows up as part of the anit-theft disable mechanism invoked when PASSkey fails. Any comments or insights are helpful. thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Measure the resistance of the ignition key pellet. Write it down for reference. Remove the hush panel below the steering column and locate the orance wire that has a two position connector. It will look like an orange modular phone cord wire. Put your ignition key in the ignition switch, unplug the connector and measure the resistance between the two terminals that connect to the ignition side. The resistance should be very close to the resistance of the ignition key. If it is infinite, the wires to the contacts in the ignition swiych are broken. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Measure the resistance of the ignition key pellet. Write it down for reference. Remove the hush panel below the steering column and locate the orance wire that has a two position connector. It will look like an orange modular phone cord wire. Put your ignition key in the ignition switch, unplug the connector and measure the resistance between the two terminals that connect to the ignition side. The resistance should be very close to the resistance of the ignition key. If it is infinite, the wires to the contacts in the ignition swiych are broken. great idea will give it a shot thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Whenever I have had a pellet problem or the theft detrent activate the starter won't even try to turn over. If your car's starter engages and turns over, I would look at a fuel or iignition problem. I do not know if the anti theft system has a fuel shut off or ignition kill (besides the starter disable)Someone on here will know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 After looking it up. a 97 STS would have the passkey II, which also disables injector pulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 After looking it up. a 97 STS would have the passkey II, which also disables injector pulse thx for jumping in caddypete. I was wondering that myself -- why is the engine even cranking with a theft system problem? Best I could figure it disables fuel because I could not smell any gas after 3 minutes of cranking (and killing off the battery had to buy a charger after that). I called my local Caddy dealer who says $98 for a new ignition cylinder and $40 a key. I figure I can put it in myself with the info I have picked up from this site. Before I did that I was going to try KHE's suggestion and see if the wires are rotted off. Have to take apart the column either way so why not? May end up with the resistor fix I read about on this site. thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 After looking it up. a 97 STS would have the passkey II, which also disables injector pulse thx for jumping in caddypete. I was wondering that myself -- why is the engine even cranking with a theft system problem? Best I could figure it disables fuel because I could not smell any gas after 3 minutes of cranking (and killing off the battery had to buy a charger after that). I called my local Caddy dealer who says $98 for a new ignition cylinder and $40 a key. I figure I can put it in myself with the info I have picked up from this site. Before I did that I was going to try KHE's suggestion and see if the wires are rotted off. Have to take apart the column either way so why not? May end up with the resistor fix I read about on this site. thx If you find the PASS wires are broken, just solder in a resistor(s) equal to the kep pellet. Much easher and cheaper than replacing the ignition switch. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 http://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system This may give you some insight to how the vat key system works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted April 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 well nothing worked sofar I am still dead in the water. I bought a VATs disabler off eBay -- anyone know where to plug it in? The instructions that came with it are not much help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 well nothing worked sofar I am still dead in the water. I bought a VATs disabler off eBay -- anyone know where to plug it in? The instructions that came with it are not much help. Have you tried any of the troubleshooting instructions I posted in my March 7th post? If you replace the lock cylinder, just have the new one re-keyed to your old keys - that will save you the cost of two new keys. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 well nothing worked sofar I am still dead in the water. I bought a VATs disabler off eBay -- anyone know where to plug it in? The instructions that came with it are not much help. Have you tried any of the troubleshooting instructions I posted in my March 7th post? If you replace the lock cylinder, just have the new one re-keyed to your old keys - that will save you the cost of two new keys. What I have tried sofar is disabling the VATs actuator, got the pellet resistance and installed resistors to bypass that VAT key. Still won't start. Same message "Theft System Problem" and "Car May Not Restart". am looking at ways to disable entire VAT system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 well nothing worked sofar I am still dead in the water. I bought a VATs disabler off eBay -- anyone know where to plug it in? The instructions that came with it are not much help. Have you tried any of the troubleshooting instructions I posted in my March 7th post? If you replace the lock cylinder, just have the new one re-keyed to your old keys - that will save you the cost of two new keys. What I have tried sofar is disabling the VATs actuator, got the pellet resistance and installed resistors to bypass that VAT key. Still won't start. Same message "Theft System Problem" and "Car May Not Restart". am looking at ways to disable entire VAT system. Make sure you installed the resistor on car's side. You likely engaged wrong wires. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Sounds like you have elected not to verify if the ignition switch wires were actually broken and decided to bypass the system. You either have the wrong value of resistor or as adallak said, you may have the correct resistor value hookid up to the wrong side of the plug. The resistor needs to be connected to the vehicle side of the plug, not the steering column side of the plug. That is all that is needed to bypass the VATS system. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted April 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Sounds like you have elected not to verify if the ignition switch wires were actually broken and decided to bypass the system. You either have the wrong value of resistor or as adallak said, you may have the correct resistor value hookid up to the wrong side of the plug. The resistor needs to be connected to the vehicle side of the plug, not the steering column side of the plug. That is all that is needed to bypass the VATS system. yes I elected to bypass the ressitor pellet entirely. It was easier to locate the wires and cut than pull the cylinder and buy new kit. I jumpered the two white wires that were in the bigger orange wire (as per various instructions found here and on web). I jumpered the proper side (and not the wires returning to the ign cylinder) and tested for 1.13 ohms across the new resistor connection. It read as per expectation, I tried to start and got same message. did more investigation and found that the TDM (theft detrrent module which sits down stream of the VATs key reader) is known for failure and so is the TDM relay. The TDM relay controls in/out messaging for the VATs key, starter control and fuel pump control. My starter works but my fuel pump does not. The local GM dealers I went to see do not know what operational profiles have to exist for this problem scenario to arise (starter works but no fuel) and recommended I tow it in to the shop[ and pay them $110 for electronic diagnostics to isolate the problem. 8 hours will cost me close to $1000.00.... I have a new relay but have not located the relay or the TDM. I have taken apart the trunk and run the part numbers on the components attached to the trunk wall but these are either for the PCM, remote key fob receiver or electronic suspension. No TDM. I pulled the kick panels but found nothing, pulled the passenger dash apart and found the HVAC controls but no TDM. I went to GM to see about it but they could not come up with a location either. Again, does anyone know where the TDM and TDM relay is lcoated on a 1997 Seville? thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Sounds like you have elected not to verify if the ignition switch wires were actually broken and decided to bypass the system. You either have the wrong value of resistor or as adallak said, you may have the correct resistor value hookid up to the wrong side of the plug. The resistor needs to be connected to the vehicle side of the plug, not the steering column side of the plug. That is all that is needed to bypass the VATS system. yes I elected to bypass the ressitor pellet entirely. It was easier to locate the wires and cut than pull the cylinder and buy new kit. I jumpered the two white wires that were in the bigger orange wire (as per various instructions found here and on web). I jumpered the proper side (and not the wires returning to the ign cylinder) and tested for 1.13 ohms across the new resistor connection. It read as per expectation, I tried to start and got same message. did more investigation and found that the TDM (theft detrrent module which sits down stream of the VATs key reader) is known for failure and so is the TDM relay. The TDM relay controls in/out messaging for the VATs key, starter control and fuel pump control. My starter works but my fuel pump does not. The local GM dealers I went to see do not know what operational profiles have to exist for this problem scenario to arise (starter works but no fuel) and recommended I tow it in to the shop[ and pay them $110 for electronic diagnostics to isolate the problem. 8 hours will cost me close to $1000.00.... I have a new relay but have not located the relay or the TDM. I have taken apart the trunk and run the part numbers on the components attached to the trunk wall but these are either for the PCM, remote key fob receiver or electronic suspension. No TDM. I pulled the kick panels but found nothing, pulled the passenger dash apart and found the HVAC controls but no TDM. I went to GM to see about it but they could not come up with a location either. Again, does anyone know where the TDM and TDM relay is lcoated on a 1997 Seville? thx Looks like your problem is much deeper. The module can be somewhere around the bottom of the steering column. I know mine is in such an unaccessible place that I gave up getting to it to check out starter enable relay. Someone with your model year will chime in with directins hopefully. Sorry to hear a dealer was not able to help, but I am not surprised. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90IROC Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Hi All, well the problem was fixed several weeks ago. Just wanted to finish the post for anyone else who may have same problem. Turns out the PCM fuse was hosed. Go figure and it cost me $286 to find out. Sure I physically inspected the fuse but never tested it electronically. If you pulled it and did an amp test it read 0a instead of 30a. live and learn eh? literally had the car in pieces before that but the upside is there are few places on the car I am not familiar with now... anyway, the old STS runs great these days. I have three other cars but choose to use this one. Sentimental value I guess. thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 darn I should have said that. I had that problem where the fuse blew and car had a theft problem and it was because I had a wire routed by one of the pulleys and it rubbed thru causing the fuse to burn. Ya think I would have remembered that because the repair and the tow set me back a bit. Glad to hear you got it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman1957 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 I am having problems with 97 cadillac concours cut off going down the road all of the gear lights are blinking and it reads theft system problems may not start.Had to tow car home bypassed the system it reads the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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