Looking for Norms insert kit

[joelker]

I currently have my 98 STS engine out for a leaking head gasket on #1. Before I buy the Whole kit I was wondering if anyone has bought the Norms kit and wants to re-cover some of their cost?

I know that You can buy the inserts seperatly, so Being the tight-wad I am I thought I would try this first.

That being said I was suprised that ALL of the head bolts were still VERY tight and none of them brought any aluminum out with them. But I never let the engine overheat for more than a few seconds and when the gasket let go I was close to home. It let go on the #1 cylinder from the fire ring towards the front(Belt end) to the water passage. I figured while it was out I will fix the seaping lower block while I'm at it.

Thanks!!

Jeff

[Bruce Nunnally]

The 'book' solution is the Timesert kit. From what little I know about it the "Norm's Kit" is a custom insert kit sold previously via ebay. Can you tell me more about the kit, what is included, and why you would shop it over the Timesert standard kit recommended by Cadillac for thread repair?

[joelker]

The 'book' solution is the Timesert kit. From what little I know about it the "Norm's Kit" is a custom insert kit sold previously via ebay. Can you tell me more about the kit, what is included, and why you would shop it over the Timesert standard kit recommended by Cadillac for thread repair?

Thanks for the welcome!

I work in the automotive manufacture Reasearch and development world, and I am also ASE certified tech.

That being said I think the timesert kit is a good one but just because Kent moore or whoever came up with the low bid on the timesert kit I don't necessarly think that it is the best out there.

I also like the Idea that the Norms kit spreads the load out over a longer distance than the timesert.

The fact that they sell a Second/bigger timesert kit tells me that it does not always work.

I guess what I am saying is I KNOW from my job that the OEM does not always pick out the best choice due to cost. it is usually an existing contract with a supplier. But this is my own opinion.

The norms kit contains basically the same parts as the OEM timesert kit and infact has an inferior (in my opinion) Locating system for the drilling ad tapping.

So I guess in short I would say that overall my favoring the norms kit is long term strength. In a Really over simplified explanition think of why you pull on a rope in a tug of war game with two hands instead of one.

All of this is my opinion only so Please keep the flames to a minium!

Back

[Ranger]

Bruce, Norm's kit is similar to Timesert. He provides a drill bit, tap, Loctite etc. He is a machinist and didn't like the Timesert or decided to make his own to save money. I've heard several people tout them because they have a coarser thread and say that they will hold better. AJ is one of those proponents.

[KHE]

The 'book' solution is the Timesert kit. From what little I know about it the "Norm's Kit" is a custom insert kit sold previously via ebay. Can you tell me more about the kit, what is included, and why you would shop it over the Timesert standard kit recommended by Cadillac for thread repair?

Thanks for the welcome!

I work in the automotive manufacture Reasearch and development world, and I am also ASE certified tech.

That being said I think the timesert kit is a good one but just because Kent moore or whoever came up with the low bid on the timesert kit I don't necessarly think that it is the best out there.

I also like the Idea that the Norms kit spreads the load out over a longer distance than the timesert.

The fact that they sell a Second/bigger timesert kit tells me that it does not always work.

I guess what I am saying is I KNOW from my job that the OEM does not always pick out the best choice due to cost. it is usually an existing contract with a supplier. But this is my own opinion.

The norms kit contains basically the same parts as the OEM timesert kit and infact has an inferior (in my opinion) Locating system for the drilling ad tapping.

So I guess in short I would say that overall my favoring the norms kit is long term strength. In a Really over simplified explanition think of why you pull on a rope in a tug of war game with two hands instead of one.

All of this is my opinion only so Please keep the flames to a minium!

Back

The reason Timesert sells an oversized insert is not because the first size does not work... The oversized Bigserts are used to repair a block when someone uses Heilicoils or other substandard repair method. The part of the Norms kit that I don't like is that it relies totally on the loctite to retain them. The Timeserts use Loctite AND a mechanical swaging process to lock them in place.

Timeserts were developed as the Northstar engine was designed and validated, not after the fact as most think.

[joelker]

The 'book' solution is the Timesert kit. From what little I know about it the "Norm's Kit" is a custom insert kit sold previously via ebay. Can you tell me more about the kit, what is included, and why you would shop it over the Timesert standard kit recommended by Cadillac for thread repair?

Thanks for the welcome!

I work in the automotive manufacture Reasearch and development world, and I am also ASE certified tech.

That being said I think the timesert kit is a good one but just because Kent moore or whoever came up with the low bid on the timesert kit I don't necessarly think that it is the best out there.

I also like the Idea that the Norms kit spreads the load out over a longer distance than the timesert.

The fact that they sell a Second/bigger timesert kit tells me that it does not always work.

I guess what I am saying is I KNOW from my job that the OEM does not always pick out the best choice due to cost. it is usually an existing contract with a supplier. But this is my own opinion.

The norms kit contains basically the same parts as the OEM timesert kit and infact has an inferior (in my opinion) Locating system for the drilling ad tapping.

So I guess in short I would say that overall my favoring the norms kit is long term strength. In a Really over simplified explanition think of why you pull on a rope in a tug of war game with two hands instead of one.

All of this is my opinion only so Please keep the flames to a minium!

Back

The reason Timesert sells an oversized insert is not because the first size does not work... The oversized Bigserts are used to repair a block when someone uses Heilicoils or other substandard repair method. The part of the Norms kit that I don't like is that it relies totally on the loctite to retain them. The Timeserts use Loctite AND a mechanical swaging process to lock them in place.

Timeserts were developed as the Northstar engine was designed and validated, not after the fact as most think.

Yes that is right! The Corvair guys have been using them on their air cooled engines for years and years. I agree that the Timesert uses two methods to hold it in but if you think about it, the tension from the bolt strech holds things in place more than anything. When a headbolt "pulls" It is because the threads fail from the bolt pulling upwards not rotating. so I dont think swaging or locktite or both would help if the material that the bolt or insert goes into is weak or soft.

And that is why I like the norms insert as of right now. But my mind can be changed if someone can prove one is better. And not just because the book says so. But I have always had a problem of doing what I was told!

[KHE]

If the loctite failed on the Norms insert, the insert and head bolt could have the potential to back out (loosen) over time.

My '97 STS was improperly repaired by a Cadillac dealer prior to me owning it. The idiots installed the Timeserts 1/4" too deep in the block because they freehanded the repair. They were too lazy to use the drill fixture... As a result, 20% of the thread engagement was lost and the inserts fractured when they torqued the head bolts down. I bought the car knowing it had bad headgaskets and drilled out the old Timeserts repaired it with the Bigserts - 34,000 miles later, it is still running fine.

I like the idea that the factory has done the validation and testing to prove the Timesert works. With any other insert, the design theory may sound good but the actual testing is done on the customer's car and it is very difficult to analyze any failure data. Also, the price of the Norms insert was almost that if the Timesert kit as I recall.

[joeb]

does norm still sell his kits on ebay? i used the timesert kit and sold it for $20 less than i bought it for. thats almost free. why not buy norms kit and sell it when finished? we have a machine shop where i work. our guys say they can make norms inserts or anything else like that. its just a chunk of threaded rod that is internally tapped. there is all kinds of threaded rod available. i am not sure about norms drill bits though. does he use stepped drills or standard drills? the timesert fixture block to drill the holes square to the deck surface is nice. simple and effective.

[KHE]

It would be interestng to know what sort of corrosion resistant coating is applied to the Norms inserts if any. That is a critical step in the longivity of the repair. Also, When I drilled out the Timeserts in my block, they were hard... not the run of the mill grade 2 threaded rod.

[fastcarface]

Hi I am new to this forum. I have a 1997 Seville SLS with the famous headgasket problem. It appears only the rear head is involved. I went searching for inserts, and found Norms inserts on ebay with a rediculous $349 price tag on them. I am a machinist by trade and we always used EZLOCK inserts from an outfit in Gardena, CA phone number 800-234-5613. They sell different kind of inserts, including ones made of stainless steel, and they look suspiciously exactly like "Norms Inserts". Norm probably buys his there and repackages them with a tap and drill bit and charges you an extra $250 bucks for his time. The only problem is that he doesn't use the stainless inserts. I will put the stainless inserts in my SLS due to the harsh environment they operate in, and because they won't rust like Norms will. Also when you get the tap drill, buy a 1 inch thick piece of steel from any steel place, use the tap drill to drill a hole in it using a good drill press, and voila you have your alignment fixture. It isn't rocket science! You can size and shape your alignment block as you see fit, and even make a clamp assembly for it to clamp it in place. I would recommend making a sleeve to fit the tap drill size on the outside, and the head bolt size on the inside, so it can be aligned by placing the sleeve on the headbolt and screwing it into the block through the spacer hole. When it is in straight, you clamp down the block using some other head holes and a piece of flat bar steel cut and drilled for the purpose. It doesn't take a lot to be a good backyard mechanic, but sometimes we think we have to use someones "special tool" to do a job. That special tool was probably invented by a line mechanic in response to something a design engineer missed in the original design. Then they want to rob everyone who thinks he "absolutely has to have the Special tool" to do the job. It isn't true. I make all my own special tools, and a lot of them that are better than the "special tools" made by others. I bought this car because I liked its look, condition, and power, and I got it for $800. It is a pretty good size car too compared to the newer ones, and has lots of crumple zone due to the long hood. I think I am going to remove the engine cradle to do the repair as most posts say it is easier, and I want to do the job perfectly the first time. As to the inserts pulling out, I am not afraid that the EZLOCKS have no collar on them. I have used them extensively in industry, where high temperature and pressure were present and never had a problem. You must however use high strength thread locking compound like Locktite, but it is really only necessary for the head bolt tightening part of the installation, to keep the insert from moving. Once the head bolts are tight it will not move again. The locktite sets in about a few hours, and the engine heat will make it even harder. Locktite melts around 500 F, but at this point the engine would be junk anyway. Also I saw a post where someone was going to use studs screwed into the block inserts, and put a nut on the top. I wouldn't recommend this as the clamping force will be hard to duplicate exactly and the studs are stronger. I believe this engine relies on the headbolts acting as springs, and being able to flex a bit so as not to pull the block apart. Too much of a good thing can be worse sometimes.

[jking220]

... I want to do the job perfectly the first time...

If you want the job done perfectly, why dont you use the timeserts that were ENGINEERED by the manufacturer to fix the problem? Do you think they just copied every other insert out there?

I work as an engineer designing and testing aircraft oil and fuel pumps, and we have to put threaded inserts in every bolt hole. We use 5 different insert designs/materials, depending on the situation.

Bottom Line... Not every insert is created equal. I'de like to see how long the heads stay on a N* with home-made threaded rod inserts.

JMO

[BodybyFisher]

There are those who prefer to go against the grain in life, hell 50% of this country will vote for a candidate who hates the US, its their nature and they are free to ignore history and facts and they are free to do so. If I were to do this job, I would use the product that GM sanctioned, but that is me, it has been successfully used for years.

Last month we had someone say it was OK just to re-drill the block and use oversize bolts.

The other day I had a long discussion with a GM tech who is charged with doing head gasket jobs at my local dealer. He said, if the head bolt SNAPS loose, it does not need to be TIME-SERTED, any bolts that don't SNAP loose need TIME-SERTING. I noded, and walked away totally disagreeing with him, why argue with someone who does this for a living, but me?, if I were to do all that work, I'd be timeserting EVERY bolt hole, why not?, its MY money and time not some poor customers money or GM's reputation.

I have always said, this is why there is FORD and GM, Yankees and Mets, Democrats and Republicans, etc etc etc. To each his own.

There are all kinds of 'solutions' some riskier than others, me?, I wear a belt and suspenders, am adverse to risk, because I can't afford to make a mistake and would TIMESERT my block, and yes, I too make my own tools from working at Sun Shipbuilding & Drydock as a mechanic.

[joelker]

I agree that the norms kit is over priced for what you get but It was worth the extra money to not have to search for the peices my self. I installed the kit Norms kit and I did make an alignment fixture to drill straight.

As I said before I will not get in an argument as to which kit is better but I believe I used the better one That being said I am an ASE certified Mester tech and I have been getting paid to work on other peoples cars from the age of 13. I am not claiming to be smart but I do have a little experience And I not talking about just being some flat rate parts changer just trying to make a buck. I will not and have not ever worked that way! If I can't do it right I will not do it!!! I have been told many times that I am too Honest in my work. (Whatever that means)

I do believe that either kit will stay put for as long as you will have the car!!! If installed correctly THAT IS THE BIG IF as we know!

Enough about kits though! I was suprised that ALL of my head bolts cracked loose and were all really darn tight! The gasket let go on the #1 cylinder towards the timing chain to whe water passage. The front head was fine and flat but the one that let go had a warp between the two center cylinders and where the gasket let go there was like a dent (for lack of better description) where the fire ring was almost like it had a hard spot and the Head dented instead of the gasket crushing when they put it together new.

Of interest though, is like I said all of the bolts were tight and came out clean But, when I was using an old head bolt to hold down the drill fixture about half of them pulled the threads by just hand tightening!! I'm talking about about less than 20 ft.lbs!! So as far as I am concerned ALL bolt holes need inserts! Don't half *smurf* it!

While I was there I fixed the crankcase oil leaks and did away with thise stupid ground wire bulkhead connectors (which I have traced every electrical problem on my car back to) Now it does not leak anywhere and all is good in the world... Well i guess with the car at least.

[BodybyFisher]

I agree that the norms kit is over priced for what you get but It was worth the extra money to not have to search for the peices my self. I installed the kit Norms kit and I did make an alignment fixture to drill straight.

As I said before I will not get in an argument as to which kit is better but I believe I used the better one That being said I am an ASE certified Mester tech and I have been getting paid to work on other peoples cars from the age of 13. I am not claiming to be smart but I do have a little experience And I not talking about just being some flat rate parts changer just trying to make a buck. I will not and have not ever worked that way! If I can't do it right I will not do it!!! I have been told many times that I am too Honest in my work. (Whatever that means)

I do believe that either kit will stay put for as long as you will have the car!!! If installed correctly THAT IS THE BIG IF as we know!

Enough about kits though! I was suprised that ALL of my head bolts cracked loose and were all really darn tight! The gasket let go on the #1 cylinder towards the timing chain to whe water passage. The front head was fine and flat but the one that let go had a warp between the two center cylinders and where the gasket let go there was like a dent (for lack of better description) where the fire ring was almost like it had a hard spot and the Head dented instead of the gasket crushing when they put it together new.

Of interest though, is like I said all of the bolts were tight and came out clean But, when I was using an old head bolt to hold down the drill fixture about half of them pulled the threads by just hand tightening!! I'm talking about about less than 20 ft.lbs!! So as far as I am concerned ALL bolt holes need inserts! Don't half *smurf* it!

While I was there I fixed the crankcase oil leaks and did away with thise stupid ground wire bulkhead connectors (which I have traced every electrical problem on my car back to) Now it does not leak anywhere and all is good in the world... Well i guess with the car at least.

If you read my profile you will know why I like the way you think

[joelker]

[if you read my profile you will know why I like the way you think

Glad to Hear it!!

I am the type to listen to others opinions and not attack just because we don't agree. But I usually stay off of B-boards just because of that type of thing. But it seems to not be as bad here as some places.

What is that saying... Something about if you don't have anything nice to say...

Thanks!!!

[BodybyFisher]

But it seems to not be as bad here as some places.

Except when it comes to politics and bashing GM/Cadillac, but yes we try to keep a lit on flaming, etc, a persons opinion or experience may open our eyes.

[ampiifire]

just bought norm's kit.. what a rip. i had a HELL of a time making sure i was drilling straight.. the alignment block is absolutely worthless at this as the drill bit can move probably 20 degrees in any direction through the hole. paid 300 dollars for a drill bit (17/32 with a flattened tip), 2 taps, (5/8 each one 3 bladed and one 4.. which incidentally none of the tool stores around me had a tap handle that could hold something that large), a steel block about 1.5 inches by 3.5 inches by 2 inches with a hole in the middle of it (b*tched about above) a big bottle of thread locker (7$ at your local anything store), tap magic (8 dollars at your local anything store) a pocket slide ruler (1 dollar at harbor freight.. same brand as he sent) 20 inserts (4 or 5 dollars each on ebay) a specialty tool for setting the inserts which is pretty much a fat flat head screwdriver and a set of instructions that are pretty much the heartwarming tale of why norm created this kit for us.

don't get me wrong.. i've seen the timeserts and these head to head and i totally believe in the thicker, stronger threads.. i'm just upset with what i paid.

i paid 350 dollars for this while a week earlier i paid 150 dollars for a 175 pound hunk of steel that is capable of picking an engine up right out of a car. come to think of it, all throughout this project i've been surprised at how much and how little my money can buy.. but to put it in to perspective 350 dollars can pay my cable, electricity, gas water and cell phone bills for a month and it came in a 4 lb box about as big as a 4 pack of lightbulbs

if you really want it i'd be glad to send you the bit, taps, specialty tool, slide ruler, steel block, half a bottle of thread lock, and half a bottle of aluminum tapping oil (everything but the inserts) for $150 but i would feel like i was ripping you off.. i would definitely recommend buying these seperately and spending the money you save on the 28 dollars of guide pins you will need when you are done and your two head gaskets. if you haven't gotten a hold of it and you really want to buy the 'kit' email me - stingr.mr@gmail.com and i'd be glad to oblige.. but you already know how i feel about it.

max

[MrEldo97]

Now you understand why we advised you to proceed with the Timesert Tool Kit and inserts…

Good luck with your repair.

[BodybyFisher]

Not to rub salt into the cut but that is why I said this in my post #12

"If I were to do this job, I would use the product that GM sanctioned (www.timesert.com) , but that is me, it has been successfully used for years", why reinvent the wheel?

[joelker]

That is why I made my own allignment jig. It is bassiclly just a flat plate about 1/2'' thick with a 1 inch round spacer welded on. I thin drilled a hole thuough the center of the plate and spacer with the supplied bit so it was a guide I then laid one of the old head gaskets on the bottom of the plate and marked the headbolt hole spacing. Bolt it down with an old headbolt, allign the spacer over the hole you want to drill and then set the drill bit so it sticks out of the chuck the right distance ( I don't remember how far that was, but on my 98 engine I wanted the depth to be 3") and drill till the chuck bottoms out on the spacer.

I agree that the Norms kit is WAY overpriced for what you get but if you think about what "speciality tool" Isn't?

I also know A bunch of you are thinking "Why do all of that when you could just buy the timesert kit?" Well Like I said I like to do things the hard way I guess and I really didn't want the timesert kit.

I will also say that my part of my job is testing and checking factory fixes and helping writing the procedures for service manuals for a major automotive company. I cant say who due to the nature of working in a R&D enviroment but I can say we build a bunch of cars here in centeral Ohio.

And that is where I base my opinion on the timesert kit from. I am not finding fault with anyone who uses the timesert kit, It is a VERY GOOD fix for out cars.

Again this is only my opinoin please do not think I am trying to influnce anyone to use one or the other!!

[MrEldo97]

The Timesert Kit is an excellently engineered tool kit and I have two years and 20,000 miles on my Timesert repair.