Oil burn

[mradams12189]

Purchased a 2002 caddilac deville 62,000 miles march 1st of 08 drove it off the lot. I drive about 150 miles a week. I have been rather anal about oil changes. I have had 4 so far not for any reason but i just want to take care of this beautiful piece of machinery. 2 and half months ago i was 2 and half quarts low which scared the hell out of me. Nice mechanic let me get under the carriage no leaks he checked all of my gaskets checked my coolant and he just chalked it up to 150 miles a week back and forth to work give or take anther 10 miles to walmart per week. And i usually stay under 80 mph. I just went two weeks ago to change it again becuuse it felt like the car was driving rough like it needed an oil change. NO OIL ON MY DIPSTICK. But still no leaks no black smoke no smell. I use the factory oil it states in the book and i recently since the 1st oil change i started to use the super unleaded.

[BodybyFisher]

Read this, it is by a GM Powertrain Engineer that helped design the Northstar

Northstar Oil Consumption

"It is not unusual for a Northstar to use more oil than some other engines. It is a high performance engine and has to allow a little more oil to the top rings for lube as as well as down the 32 valve guides.

Design intent for oil consumption would put the engine at about 4000 miles per quart consumption but due to the variables in production parameters there are engines that will use 1 quart per 1000-1500 miles.... perfectly normal and acceptable... but more oil consumption than "intended". Nothing will be wrong with the engine but the continuous oil adds are aggravating. If this is the case then understand that the engine is probably going to run a long long time like that as the cylinder walls , rings, valve guides, etc. like all that oil that you are putting in and the continuous oil adds fortify the used oil in the sump and replenish the additive package in the oil that is slowly depleted under normal usage.

Comparing the 4.9 to the Northstar is an apples to oranges deal. The 4.9 is an excellent engine for it's purpose but does not offer nearly the performance, durability, fuel economy and emission control capability of the Northstar. The Northstar is a high output engine and likes to be "used".

The best way to minimize oil consumption in a Northstar is to keep the sump filled slightly low (many are continuously overfilled) by only checking the oil level when hot and only filling the sump with 7 quarts of oil (7.5 with a dry filter at a change.) A typical 8 quart fill at a change is "required" to put the oil level on the full mark when cold but is actually overfilling the crankcase promoting oil consumption.

Use conventional mineral oil (synthetic is not required at all) as it tends to provide better oil consumption.

An last, but not least, air the engine out frequently. It likes to be used and red-line upshifts at WOT help promote clean combustion chambers, exercise the piston rings to keep them free of carbon buildup and keep them mobile and to ensure the engine is broken in and maximum sealing is obtained. The Northstar does not like to be babied around. It likes to be run hard frequently with a WOT blast in merging or whatever.... Even engines reported to use 1 quart per 1500 miles tend to improve to 2500 miles per quart or better when subjected to a regular schedule of use and "abuse"...

----------

The subject of oil consumption really does not have a "final" answer. The fact is that there is some variability in oil consumption in all production engines.... regardless of who makes them on which continent. All the manufacturers recognize this and virtually all of them will call oil consumption as great as 1 quart in 1000 miles "normal" "acceptable" "allowable" "within production tolerances" etc... This doesn't mean that all engines will get 1000 MPQ or that the engine was designed to get 1000 MPQ...it just recognizes the fact that there are going to be some engines that get 1000 MPQ that will be perfectly fine upon disassembly and will have nothing "wrong" with them.

The variables that usually enter into oil consumption are primarily associated with the piston/ring/cylinder bore. The number of valves or type of valve actuation has little to do with it.

The single biggest variable and the one that has been discussed at great length on this forum is the cylinder bore finish or the cylinder honing pattern. The higher performance the engine is the more attention must be paid to the honing pattern and retention of oil on the cylinder walls to lubricate the piston and rings at full load , high RPM operation. The Northstar engine uses a very aggressive cylinder bore finish that tends to retain a lot of oil to protect the piston and rings. When the blocks are honed at the factory there is a tolerance in the bore finish due to the fact that the honing stones will wear and need replacement. A brand new stone gives a slightly more aggressive pattern than a "used" stone....so a block honed with new stones will have a more aggressive finish and most likely will use more oil.

Another variable is bore roundness. Like it or not, the bores tend to "move" slightly as the engine heats up and cools down and bolt tensions relax, etc. over time. All this contributes to slight bore out of roundness that is not bad or good...just different.

Carbon buildup in the rings and ring sealing are also variables that come into play with break in, operating schedule, type of oil used, etc.

The one thing that I can attest to is that many, many customer oil consumption complaint engines have been torn down with absolutely nothing wrong found. The engines are often reassembled and put into test cars and driven by the engineers and more often than not the high oil consumption does not repeat itself !!! The single biggest common cause seems to be breakin...or lack there of. Many, many oil consuming NOrthstar engines are "fixed" by some full throttle operation. I often joke about "driving it like you stole it" but it really is no joke. The Northstar engine was designed as a high performance engine to be run hard and fast. Those that are run hard typically exhibit excellent ring seal, little carbon build up and good oil economy. We have seen engines with tens of thousands of miles on them that the rings have not sealed or mated to the sides of the ring grooves because the operating schedule was so light duty. The moral here is to flog it .... often.

In any case, the nice thing about the engines with the more aggressive honing pattern is that the pistons, rings and bores will last forever. It is very common to tear down a 200,000 mile Northstar engine and still see the original honing pattern in the cylinders. There is never any sign of cylinder wall wear and the idea of a wear "ridge" at the top of the cylinder bore is something that is laughable on a Northstar.

The other nice thing about a little oil consumption is that it adds tremendous safety factor to the oil change interval. Nothing could be better for the engine than an occasional quart of fresh oil. You can take the worst oil on the market and add a fresh quart every 1000 miles and over the life of the engine the wear will be better than an engine run on the best oil with no adds between changes.

While no one in the engineering community wants high oil consumption the fact is that there is some variability in the oil consumption of an engine manufactured at the rate of 1200 per day. The specs of what is "normal" simply reflects this...it does not imply that all engines would get this or that something is wrong with and engine that gets more or less oil consumption.

There have been a lot of engineering changes over the years on the Northstar aimed at reducing the overall oil consumption and reducing the variability in the oil consumption of different engines. Many changes have been made to the honing process to make it more consistent. Changes to the piston and ring groove treatment have been made to make it more resistant to wear, pound out and micro welding at low oil retention rates. Regardless, there is still some variability.

One other thing that affects oil consumption, or the customers perception of oil consumption, is the move toward longer and longer change intervals. With the allowable change interval reaching as high as 12,500 miles on a 2003 Northstar if the oil life monitor is followed this could mean the addition of 3,4 or 5 quarts of oil to a very healthy engine. If the owner changes their oil every 2000 or 3000 miles, despite the oil life monitor recommendations, then they would not have to add any oil between changes. The oil consumption is the same....the amount added between changes is all that is different. Yet, many customers do not make the distinction. Field surveyors repeatedly show that "acceptable" oil consumption means "not having to add between changes"...whatever MPQ that is...???

The issue of oil consumption is very emotional , too, as many people perceive higher oil consumption as 'poor quality" or an indication that something is wrong. Blue smoke, fouling plugs, noise, etc...is a sign of something wrong. Using 1 quart in 1000 miles might be perfectly normal for an engine that has the high limit "rough" hone finish and is perfectly in spec...yet it will be perceived differently.

The Northstar engine in particular was designed to be a high performance engine and to perform well at high speeds and high loads. The engines are tested at loads and speeds for time periods few customers will ever be able to duplicate. It is unfortunate that the engineering that goes into making the engine capable of such running sometimes contributes to more oil consumption... especially as the production machining tolerances are taken into account.

The items mentioned about overfilling also apply. Make sure that the system is not overfilled as any excess oil will be pushed out the PCV. The best bet is to always check the oil hot and keep it midway between the add and full mark. Don't always top off and don't top off cold to the full mark as that will overfill the sump.

Hope this helps rather than adding more fuel to the fire... so to speak.

Incidentally, there is a lot in the message board / forum archives... check using "oil consumption" and read up. Always keep in mind that for every "oil burner" you read about on the internet there are 10,000 or more driving around perfectly fine that the people are not posting about... You are always going to read about the horror cases on the internet".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Occasional Full-Throttle Acceleration Is Good For Your Engine

There are many advantages to occasional full throttle accelerations with a Northstar and any engine.

It keeps the carbon cleaned out of the combustion chamber. This is maybe a little more important with the Northstar than some other engines due to the tight squish volumes between the piston and the cylinder head. It's designed this way to promote good in-cylinder mixture motion (good combustion) but it has the down side of providing a ready place for carbon build-up to touch the piston - causing noise. Ever heard of the Northstar "cold carbon rap" problem?? Simply put you'll hear a rythmic, piston slap-like noise when the engine is cold. Very prominent and very annoying. Cause: excessive carbon build up causing the the piston to contact the carbon on the head - causing it to rock in the bore and "slap" Much more evident when the engine is cold and the pistons haven't expanded to full diameter yet. Simplest and easiest "fix" for this: A few good WOT (wide open throttle) accelerations to clear the carbon out. That is all it takes to eliminate the problem and prevent it from re-occurring.

Occasional WOT accelerations also help seat the rings to the ring lands and exercise the rings and keep them mobile and from becoming stuck in carbon in the ring lands. At high RPM and WOT the rings move around on the piston - they actually rotate on the piston and will polish away any carbon and seat themselves to the sides of the ring grooves. This is especially important on the 2000 and later Northstars which had hard anodized top ring lands on the pistons. Very hard and wear resistant - also harder to break-in and seat the rings to the sides of the ring-lands to promote the best possible seal. Many oil consumption complaints on the 2000 and later engines are related, to some extent, with the rings never seating to the sides of the ring-grooves due to lack of load as the engine was babied around forever. Even engines with rings stuck in the ring-grooves due to carbon build up can eventually be freed up with enough high RPM operation.

WOTs warm up the engine thoroughly and clean out the exhaust due to temperature in the exhaust and high flow rates blasting particles, rust and such out of the system.

Frequent WOT operation will not hurt the engine or the transmission. They're designed for that. The healthiest engines that I have seen at high miles are always the ones that are run the hardest. Rings are free on the pistons and sealing; no carbon buildup.

The exercise that I think works best for many things is to select manual 2nd gear on an isolated stretch of expressway. This takes the transmission shifting out of the question if you are worried about hurting it. Start at 55 MPH or so and go to WOT in 2nd gear and hold it until the RPM reaches near the normal shift point - i.e. 6500 for an L37 and 6000 for an LD8. Hold the throttle wide open until the engine reaches, say, 6200 for an STS and then just let completely off the throttle. Leave the transmission in 2nd so that the engine brakes the car and creates some pretty heavy over-run conditions at high vacuum levels. Let it slow until it is about 55 or so and then go to WOT again and repeat. This exercise really loads the rings, allows variable RPM operation at WOT for several seconds continuously, creates heavy over-run which tends to unload the rings and make them move and thus exercise them in the ring grooves and it will blow-out carbon and the exhaust - all without creating a spectical of yourself and attracting the attention of cops. You can do it on most any freeway and stay within the 70-75 MPH range allowable. Once a week like this will keep the engine cleaned out and healthy and is DEFINITELY recommended for the Northstar in particular.

The Northstar engine was designed/developed/validated to be run hard. It was expected that people would use the performance of the engine - which few people seem to do. The biggest single problem that many issues stem from is lack of use at full throttle by the owners. It just doesn't like to be babied around. The rings are low-tension by design for good high RPM operating characteristics and low friction/good power. They work best if "used" and kept free.

In every conversation with owners I have had, once the owner started doing the WOTs and using the power of the engine they report no more carbon rap, better oil economy, no "smoke" when they do light it up (keep the exhaust cleaned out. If you notice a "cloud" at WOT then you are not doing enough WOTs...) etc... A bit of judicious use of the other end of the throttle travel is a GOOD thing...

[BodybyFisher]

Your vehicle has an OIL LIFE MONITOR, it monitors a bunch of inputs and determines when the OIL should be changed. Your obsessive oil changing is not only unnecessary but its a waste of money.

Read this, it was written by a GM Powertrain Engineer that helped design the Northstar

One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUALS driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly. No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.

There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

[lothos]

If you have a northstar engine, it takes 7.5 quarts of oil for an oil and filter change. That might account for your 2.5 quart loss.

[Texas Jim]

Purchased a 2002 caddilac deville 62,000 miles march 1st of 08 drove it off the lot. I drive about 150 miles a week. I have been rather anal about oil changes. I have had 4 so far not for any reason but i just want to take care of this beautiful piece of machinery. 2 and half months ago i was 2 and half quarts low which scared the hell out of me. Nice mechanic let me get under the carriage no leaks he checked all of my gaskets checked my coolant and he just chalked it up to 150 miles a week back and forth to work give or take anther 10 miles to walmart per week. And i usually stay under 80 mph. I just went two weeks ago to change it again becuuse it felt like the car was driving rough like it needed an oil change. NO OIL ON MY DIPSTICK. But still no leaks no black smoke no smell. I use the factory oil it states in the book and i recently since the 1st oil change i started to use the super unleaded.

I am not fussing at you or criticizing you but... thats almost one oil change a month... and from your mileage figures... about 1000 miles or less between changes.

There is also the possibility that the mechanic DON'T KNOW that it takes 7.5 quarts of oil for that engine.

Not 5 quarts like most cars.

If that is the case... (and he put in 5 quarts instead of 7.5) that would explain why you were 2.5 quarts low at one of the oil changes and why no oil was on the stick at one of the other oil change.

You can usually go SEVERAL THOUSAND miles between changes.

Not just 1000 or 1500 miles. That is not necessary at all.

Like you, for the last 40 years I have been obsessed with changing the oil.

I am now a recovering OIL CHANGE AHOLIC.

There is no telling how much money and oil I have wasted down thru the years. I am now trying to mend my ways.

If you are worried that you are not changing it enough... you can send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs. They will do an oil analysis for $22.50 and mail you a report.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

[Logan]

Could be...good catch. Maybe only 5 quarts are being put in.

Thanks Fisher for a review on the oil issue. Mine runs about 1 quart per 1k.

I have been using the OLM. Adding quarts when the IPC displays 'check oil level.'

It appears, I need to flog it more often. The mentioned 'if you see a cloud' your not doing it enough. I get a cloud everytime. I always wonder what the people behind me think of this cloud....axxhole..

[Texas Jim]

It appears, I need to flog it more often. The mentioned 'if you see a cloud' your not doing it enough.

I get a cloud everytime.

I always wonder what the people behind me think of this cloud....axxhole..

As the old TV commercial used to say.... JUST DO IT.

Then people will stop calling you names.

[mradams12189]

It appears, I need to flog it more often. The mentioned 'if you see a cloud' your not doing it enough.

I get a cloud everytime.

I always wonder what the people behind me think of this cloud....axxhole..

As the old TV commercial used to say.... JUST DO IT.

Then people will stop calling you names.

You gentlemen are great. Thank you for all the advice and direction. I do have one last question. I have a keyless entry that is no longer functioning i changed the battery and still nothing. might have thrown my keys on the table to many times. so went to ebay and purchsed two additional keyless entry devices for my model. now the question. Caddilac dealership wants $50.00 per to program. I only have 2 main caddilac dealerships near my home and one of them is about 45 minutes away and they want $45.00 per key. Is this something that I can do? or is there a book I can purchase. I did read somewhere that I need a tech II scanner??

[BodybyFisher]

Take a look at this link for RKE programming

http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/cad98rke.html