No power/Bad gas mileage

[BodybyFisher]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

Then it is not going into OD/4th, that would explain your high speed MPG disappointment as the engine is running at a higher RPM that it would be if it was in OD.

I don't know if there is a way to easily diagnose whether its the the converter or the solenoid, I think that can be determined using a TECH 2.

I thought we were testing if the torque converter is locking up or not. I didn't think we were trying to see if I have 4th. Technically If I was testing to see if I had 4th, couldn't I put it into third and go 60 and if it runs the same RPM and such wouldn't that also tell me if it's not going into OD/4th?

Either was I can't really test it today with the 40 MPH wind, I don't think that would be a good test. I did go 60 though for a while against the wind and it was 2200 RPM.

I often refer to OD as the 4th gear probably erroneously.

THAT SAID, lets NOT play with semantics here, you are sounding testy toward me for some reason and I have been with you from the beginning with this.

THE POINT IS, IF you tap the brake over 41 and you DON'T GET a RISE IN RPM, you are NOT going into OD or LOCKUP. The code you get TCC STUCK OFF tells me that, are you still getting that CODE?

I'm really not quite sure how you took that as me being "testy" when all I was doing was asking questions. I was not at all being cranky or mean in anyway. I was just simply stating that I thought 4th gear and lockup were two totally different things. I always thought there were 4 gears and then in 3rd or 4th gear you can have torque converter lock up. That's how I've always heard it anyway.

I just got this from a different forum and this is how I've actually always heard it said:

OD is not torque converter lock up. its 4th gear.

To clear up some confusion.

1= 1st gear

2= 2nd gear

3= 3rd gear

D= 4th gear

If you have the other column markings then it goes like this.

1= 1st gear

2= 2nd gear

D= 3rd gear

OD= 4th gear.

Torqure converter lock up happens in 3rd and 4th gears.

So that's why there was confusion because I thought you were completely jumping off the torque converter problem and I was simply asking why you did. I thought you were going on another lead or something. That's all that was.

And yes I do still have the P0741 code and that's the only code I get. Besides my shock code of course.

Sorry for being sensitive, I am ready to disown my 28 yo son for his lack of respect. I think its your writing style it can be terse at times I have seen it before (and that is not a criticism, your frustration is probably coming through) sorry

[BodybyFisher]

I AM SO CONFUSED MY HEAD IS SPINNING. SOMEONE HELP.

Does OD meaning TCC engagement, equate to 4th gear, that chart above leads me to believe that it is. I think JimD said it does but I think Ranger is saying that it does not.

Then, does TCC engagement equate to LOCK UP of the TC?

[Texas Jim]

I AM SO CONFUSED MY HEAD IS SPINNING. SOMEONE HELP.

Does OD meaning TCC engagement, equate to 4th gear, that chart above leads me to believe that it is. I think JimD said it does but I think Ranger is saying that it does not.

Then, does TCC engagement equate to LOCK UP of the TC?

BBF... et al...

In my humble opinion and mu simple brain...

OD means 4th Gear or TOP GEAR or HIGH GEAR or however you want to phrase it... not TC LOCKUP.

TC LOCKUP has nothing to do with 4th gear. TC Lockup is a totally seperate operation that occurs after the vehicle reaches around 40 MPH under light acceleration.

The 40 MPH can be in 3rd gear or 4th gear. If you are not accelerating very much, THAT is when TC LOCKUP occurs.

My car has FOUR gears PLUS TC Lockup.

In easy driving...It takes off in 1st...changes to 2nd at 15mph or so... changes to 3rd at about 22 to 25... changes to 4th around 30 to 32mph.

Again... if I am driving EASY... the TC then LOCKS at about 38 to 40 mph.

Slight pressure on the gas at that slow speed... and it UNLOCKS.

[BodybyFisher]

Then this chart is correct, OD = 4th and the TCC lockup is separate and apart from 4th gear.

If you have the other column markings then it goes like this.

1= 1st gear with a ratio of 2.960

2= 2nd gear with a ratio of 1.636

D= 3rd gear with a ratio of 1.000

OD= 4th gear with a ratio of 0.681

Torqure converter lock up happens in 3rd and 4th gears. Now lock up stops TC slippage is that correct?, I see it account for about 200 RPM at 60 mph, this is what 02whiteSTS is having problems with the lockup of the TC, so he is running about 200 RPM higher as a result. JimD I tend to agree that 200 RPM is not responsible for a 4 to 5 MPH drop. But add to that, the dragging rear brakes that may or may not be fixed yet because as someone mentioned, the hoses could be responsible or even the parking brake cables, and the 10% methanol and it could all add up.

Here is an interesting description of TCC Apply. When the PCM determines that the vehicle is at the proper speed for the torque converter clutch to apply it sends a signal to the TCC solenoid. The TCC solenoid then routes line fluid from the pump to the converto apply passage of the torque converter. The fluid passes between the drive sprocket support and the turbine shaft to a feed hole in the drive sprocket support. Fluid passes through the feel hole in the support and into the torque converter on the apply side of the pressure plate assembly. Converter release fluid is exhausted out of the torque conveter between the turbine shaft and the pump shaft.

NO TCC apply is caused by

TCC solenoid valve assembly

Converter clutch control valve

Conveter clutch feed limit valve stuck or binding

TCC enable valve stuck or binding

Converter clutch regulator valve stuck or binding

Turbine shaft and or seals damaged or missing

Turbine shaft bushing worn or damaged

Pressure plate assembly friction material worn or damaged

[Texas Jim]

Then this chart is correct, OD = 4th and the TCC lockup is separate and apart from 4th gear.

If you have the other column markings then it goes like this.

1= 1st gear with a ratio of 2.960

2= 2nd gear with a ratio of 1.636

D= 3rd gear with a ratio of 1.000

OD= 4th gear with a ratio of 0.681

Torqure converter lock up happens in 3rd and 4th gears. Now lock up stops TC slippage is that correct?, I see it account for about 200 RPM at 60 mph, this is what 02whiteSTS is having problems with the lockup of the TC, so he is running about 200 RPM higher as a result.

You Got It.

TC Lockup STOPS all Torque Converter slippage and makes for a more efficient drivetrain. The 200 RPM reduction is proof of that.

Lower RPM equals better fuel mileage... all other things being equal of course.

[95SevilleSLS]

BBF,

You can see now why I was so confused why you started to mention 4th gear, right? It is SOOOO hard to display a mood when you are typing, you know what I mean? I could be in the best of moods and be just simply typing away, but not read it in a way that others could read it and it could make me look like a complete butt hole! I was actually not frustrated either at the point of the message, I was just very curious and was wondering about the 4th gear thing.

So anyway, back on topic...

I'm thinking I did that test last year and the RPM did not change. But When I'm going between 38-40, just like texas jim said, I feel it lock up...or is it shifting to 4th gear? If it was locking up it should only drop a couple hundred RPM, correct? I have to check now...hmmm. When the vehicle is cold (20 outside or colder) the TC will not lock up when I first start driving it if I didn't let it warm up, correct?

BBF, I remember earlier somewhere that if your TC is not locking up you should only lose 1-2 MPG, right?

I don't think my rear brakes are dragging any longer because they are staying cool and both parking brake cables are no longer connected. I decided to say "SCREW YOU!" to those. Hopefully I'll never have to use them...

When I took my front brakes apart last year I did not lube the pins and I think that is causing my rough stop. I wish I still had my DTS or had someone near by so I could compare a little better. I'm trying to go by memory for most of this.

I know that my in town mileage is not hurting because I am now getting 15 MPG which I am LOVING.

My last highway mileage test was on a very hilly road (outside temp of 30 or so), going 69 MPH, and I went 45 miles south with a NW wind at 22 MPH gusting to 25 MPH and I came back (same day, 50 minutes later) going north went 69 MPH with the same wind on the same hilly road and my average fuel economy was 20.2222 MPG. Same pump fill up too.

Tomorrow I will confirm the TC lock-up on the highway when the wind has calmed down a bit. I'll be back!

[JimD]

.....And torque converter lockup - OD - 4th gear are all terms used to describe the exact same mechanical operation....

Whoops.

That statement is incorrect! Wrong! Bad information.

And I have a double handfull of excuses prepared.

[Texas Jim]

BBF,

So anyway, back on topic...

I'm thinking I did that test last year and the RPM did not change. But When I'm going between 38-40, just like texas jim said, I feel it lock up...or is it shifting to 4th gear? If it was locking up it should only drop a couple hundred RPM, correct? I have to check now...hmmm. When the vehicle is cold (20 outside or colder) the TC will not lock up when I first start driving it if I didn't let it warm up, correct?

BBF, I remember earlier somewhere that if your TC is not locking up you should only lose 1-2 MPG, right?

I don't think my rear brakes are dragging any longer because they are staying cool and both parking brake cables are no longer connected. I decided to say "SCREW YOU!" to those. Hopefully I'll never have to use them...

When I took my front brakes apart last year I did not lube the pins and I think that is causing my rough stop. I wish I still had my DTS or had someone near by so I could compare a little better. I'm trying to go by memory for most of this.

I know that my in town mileage is not hurting because I am now getting 15 MPG which I am LOVING.

My last highway mileage test was on a very hilly road (outside temp of 30 or so), going 69 MPH, and I went 45 miles south with a NW wind at 22 MPH gusting to 25 MPH and I came back (same day, 50 minutes later) going north went 69 MPH with the same wind on the same hilly road and my average fuel economy was 20.2222 MPG. Same pump fill up too.

Tomorrow I will confirm the TC lock-up on the highway when the wind has calmed down a bit. I'll be back!

I don't think the TC will lock up if the engine is not at normal temp. I could be wrong on that.

It now seems like the back brakes are ok. We hope.

Since you are still having the rough stop.. we need to check the front ones. In an area away from traffic... going about 10 mph... put it in "N" and let it coast to a stop. It should just gradually stop with no feeling like you are applying the brakes. If it feels like the brakes are being applied... we need to trouble shoot the front ones.

If you are having to give it a fair amount of gas to get to 40... it may be shifting to 4th gear or it may be doing the TC lockup. Hard to say without being there in the car.

Try this... on a level area ... take off normally and go up to about 50 or so. You should feel it actually SHIFT GEARS, "THREE" times. That would put it in 4th gear.

Anything else that feels like a shift, AFTER you pass 40, or that makes the RPM drop a little, would be the TC lockup. On some cars the TC lockup is so smooth that it is hard to actually FEEL it. Just watch the tach for a slight RPM drop AFTER you pass 40.

Getting 15 in town and over 20 on the road with a bunch of hills and a stiff headwind.... is getting pretty close to normal. Especially if the TC is not locking up. My DTS would not do a whole lot better than that.

[BodybyFisher]

BBF,

You can see now why I was so confused why you started to mention 4th gear, right? It is SOOOO hard to display a mood when you are typing, you know what I mean? I could be in the best of moods and be just simply typing away, but not read it in a way that others could read it and it could make me look like a complete butt hole! I was actually not frustrated either at the point of the message, I was just very curious and was wondering about the 4th gear thing.

So anyway, back on topic...

I'm thinking I did that test last year and the RPM did not change. But When I'm going between 38-40, just like texas jim said, I feel it lock up...or is it shifting to 4th gear? If it was locking up it should only drop a couple hundred RPM, correct? I have to check now...hmmm. When the vehicle is cold (20 outside or colder) the TC will not lock up when I first start driving it if I didn't let it warm up, correct?

BBF, I remember earlier somewhere that if your TC is not locking up you should only lose 1-2 MPG, right?

I don't think my rear brakes are dragging any longer because they are staying cool and both parking brake cables are no longer connected. I decided to say "SCREW YOU!" to those. Hopefully I'll never have to use them...

When I took my front brakes apart last year I did not lube the pins and I think that is causing my rough stop. I wish I still had my DTS or had someone near by so I could compare a little better. I'm trying to go by memory for most of this.

I know that my in town mileage is not hurting because I am now getting 15 MPG which I am LOVING.

My last highway mileage test was on a very hilly road (outside temp of 30 or so), going 69 MPH, and I went 45 miles south with a NW wind at 22 MPH gusting to 25 MPH and I came back (same day, 50 minutes later) going north went 69 MPH with the same wind on the same hilly road and my average fuel economy was 20.2222 MPG. Same pump fill up too.

Tomorrow I will confirm the TC lock-up on the highway when the wind has calmed down a bit. I'll be back!

Yes, I do understand, and am sorry for being sensitive I am on edge.

I was under the mistaken opinion that LOCK-UP was 4th, but now I have the situation straight in my mind. This discussion and reading the rebuilding manual I bought clarified it for me.

I wonder how many torque convertors that are slipping have bad clutches. I want to find a torque converter rebuilder and see one gutted and what the pressure plate and clutch looks like. The sectional cut away photos and diagrams don't really do it for me, I need to see something as it actually is to complete the picture in my mind.

20 MPG seems a little low, to me. The next time you are on the highway doing 60, put your MPG on instant and see what you get doing a constant 60, on flat ground, I see 25 to 27 mpg. You should see less as you have an STS final drive gear ratio (someone confirm that to be the case).

[Ed Hall]

My 93 Allante has the same gear ratio and is about the same weight at your STS and I get about 25 mpg if I drive 60 mph. I just used up a tank of fuel and I got 25 mpg on the freeway driving about 65 mph.

[95SevilleSLS]

My 93 Allante has the same gear ratio and is about the same weight at your STS and I get about 25 mpg if I drive 60 mph. I just used up a tank of fuel and I got 25 mpg on the freeway driving about 65 mph.

Cripes! Your Allante weighs about 2 ton?! That's a heavy little car! A little off topic here, but how exactly did you get ahold of an Allante? I'd LOVE to have a 93 Allante. I know that I'd have to win the lottery just to afford one in decent shape. They go for around 15-20 grand here and there is no way I could buy that staight out and I know my bank wouldn't give me a loan.

Texas Jim, I will do those things you mentioned, probably tomorrow. I have to either print this or write it down. There are so many things to test! You know, I thought it was strange that you bold some of your words, but it actually really helps when I read it. You point out just the right things. Very good psychology.

BBF, you're right, you have the 3.11 final drive and I have the 3.71 final drive so I should be 1 or 2 MPGs lower.

It would be really fun to just get everyone together and drive my car so that we could diagnose it. Of course that would be impossible to do, but it still would be cool.

[Ed Hall]

Cripes! Your Allante weighs about 2 ton?! That's a heavy little car! A little off topic here, but how exactly did you get ahold of an Allante? I'd LOVE to have a 93 Allante. I know that I'd have to win the lottery just to afford one in decent shape. They go for around 15-20 grand here and there is no way I could buy that staight out and I know my bank wouldn't give me a loan.

The Allante is not a lightweight car. It was designed to perform very well as a convertible so a lot of beefing was done to make it tight and quiet without buffeting even with the top down. At 70 mph, you still can have a conversation with the other person.

I bought my low mileage Allante private party and paid one payment and that was it. I don't put things on credit like a lot of Americans. I save and when I have the money, I just go out and buy it.