No power/Bad gas mileage

[BodybyFisher]

I was thinking about this on the way to work and the more I think about it, the more I doubt it is a warped rotor. For the rotor to be warped enough to cause a drag, I would think you'd feel a vibration and braking would be somewhat akin to a jack hammer. I still suspect a dragging brake though.

That is true and I have had that hammering.. but it only occured on braking and went away once the brake was released. It is sounding like the caliper might be seized or seizing and not releasing.

[Ranger]

Yeah, that's my guess Mike.

[BodybyFisher]

I believe you are correct, plus I think from the excess heat, the rotor is shot also, I'd be surprised if there was any meat on the pads also. I would inspect the sliders carefully also, it could also be the sliders gummed up badly and the calipers are ok. I have had a couple of sliders that I needed to struggle badly to pull out.. That is why I am careful with the slider grease, I think these brakes produce a lot of heat and it cooks lower temp grease to create a gum.

[jking220]

As for free reving the engine in park or nuetral, I do believe there is a limiter for that. I know I have had my engine rev and it will hit somewhere around 3500 rpms and stop, then rev up and stop even though pedal is still depressed

Just wanted to add my 0.02 on this... 01 STS... tried reving in neutral while waiting for GF to get out of class tonight... went to 4K and cut itself till it fell to 2500 or 3000... was a rather violent experience... but I need a new front motor mount too... was a nerve racking experience... just wanted second caddypete's post.

[95SevilleSLS]

Cool! I'm glad you guys are thinking the same thing. Luckily it's going to be about freezing this weekend so I can work on it. Is it difficult to replace the rotor or just as easy as any other GM? If I replace one, I think I might as well replace both and the brake pads also.

I would while you are there why not. Don't forget to get the proper slider lube and clean and lube the sliders and bushings. Use either the LUBE from the dealer or equivalent, not the cheapo stuff on the parts counter in the little DUCK SAUCE packages....

If I went to the parts counter at the Cadillac dealer and asked for the grease for the sliders, would they know what I'm talking about?

When I'm braking, I kind of get a "lump, lump, lump" feeling. Almost like driving on a flat tire. It's not horribly noticable, but it is noticable.

Ed, I couldn't even stop smooth when I was completely stopped and then started to roll slightly and tried to stop again. It's not the first to second jerk that you're thinking of, thanks for the help though!

[95SevilleSLS]

So I decided to get the rotor turned instead of buying a new one and when I brought it to get it turned, they said it was so warped that it wouldn't work. He said that it would cut a whole bunch off and then it would cut nothing and then a whole bunch. He asked what the heck happened. I bought a new rotor and put it on. I went out for a test drive and I went on the highway and tested the brakes and I still felt a little vibration in the back. I came back and tested the temperature of the rear brakes. The side with the new rotor and brakes was about 85 degrees and the drivers side without the new one was 200 degrees! I'm guessing that one is still obviously dragging a little. I was only on the highway for 1/2 mile and that's how hot it got. I'm going to slap the other one on tomorrow and see what happens. I can already notice a drivability difference with the other side new.

Oh and I can spin the wheel and it keeps spinning now instead of stopping right away.

Oh and another thing, BBF, remember when you said it would slide if a brake would be dragging? Well, it is now because it's only the driver's side dragging. I took a corner and it was like the drivers side wanted to stay put the passenger side wanted to go.

[BodybyFisher]

Glad you are nailing it down. How were the sliders? How were the pads? Do your rear calipers use the 'cube' to screw in the calipers?

[95SevilleSLS]

Glad you are nailing it down. How were the sliders? How were the pads? Do your rear calipers use the 'cube' to screw in the calipers?

The bolt on the bottom of the caliper you could tell had gotten hot and there was absolutely no lube on it. The top one seemed fine. The bads were done to nothing and you could tell they had gotten REALLY hot.

When I changed the brakes on my 95 seville in the back I spent 2 days trying to figure out those dang pistons. I broke a tool just trying to get it back in and then I finally asked someone and they said you need a cube but that it's usually the newer vehicles that use it. So I decided to buy it and it magically turned right in! The 02 obviously had the same thing. The piston seemed to turn in a little easier then the 95 did though. I'm not complaining though, just stating.

[BodybyFisher]

Glad you are nailing it down. How were the sliders? How were the pads? Do your rear calipers use the 'cube' to screw in the calipers?

The bolt on the bottom of the caliper you could tell had gotten hot and there was absolutely no lube on it. The top one seemed fine. The bads were done to nothing and you could tell they had gotten REALLY hot.

When I changed the brakes on my 95 seville in the back I spent 2 days trying to figure out those dang pistons. I broke a tool just trying to get it back in and then I finally asked someone and they said you need a cube but that it's usually the newer vehicles that use it. So I decided to buy it and it magically turned right in! The 02 obviously had the same thing. The piston seemed to turn in a little easier then the 95 did though. I'm not complaining though, just stating.

Cool glad to hear it. I had the same problem the first time I crossed paths with the screw in caliper piston on my 91, don't feel bad, I think that is a common hurdle for us ole timers...

[Ranger]

Yeah, add me to that club. First time I ran across one I had to break down and call the dealer. I think you could have seen the light bulb go on above my head. Boy did I feel stupid.

[winterset]

I believe there is a special lube for the Emergency brake cable & a scheduled lubeing interval.

Just in case you don't know this, or it wasn't done yet, make sure you change your brake fluid - especially that it has overheated. It most likely boiled, and that introduces air/moisture into the system - leading to inbalanced braking / pulsing etc.

If it's not the Emergency brake cable (& it's ruled out), It can be a (because of heet) damaged caliper.

Again, never keep previously boiled brake fluid in your system. Change it to verify the system, but if it boiles - change it again.

Brake fluid is the most important but most neglected fluid in a car. - And your brake lines will thank you too.

[Topcat9pet]

Just for info. I have ahad a ton of vehicles, of all types, over the years but I never had on where the flex brake line deteriorated on the inside causing fluid pressure to be trapped in the line thus causing the brake to drag until a couple of months ago. I thought that it was probably the caliper, put a new one on, no joy. Called a real mechanic and he said ," I'ts probably the flex line". It was.

[JohnnyG]

Oh Yeah! I remember now, had the same diagnosis on my old 86 Merkur. Never could tell if it was exactly correct or not, but I never had a "stuck caliper" on that wheel again! They changed the brake line, the rubber part, which they said had collapsed inside, causing pressure to be held on the caliper.

Oddly enough, only one other instance of that happened in my lifetime, where a hose was under extreme SUCTION and the inner wall collapsed preventing product to be sucked out of a gasoline barge. Different circumstances to be sure, but maybe more similarities than we think.

Sucks to get old.

[Texas Jim]

Sucks to get old.

yeah... but look at all we have done and the wonderful experience we have gained.

These young guys have all that to look forward to.

[95SevilleSLS]

Well...now I'm confused.

I replaced the rotors and brakes and all that solved was now it doesn't vibrate when I'm braking. It still doesn't stop smooth, but I found out that is my front brakes and it's my fault from last year when I replaced the brakes. My mileage has not changed and my power has not changed either. I got a whoppin 20 MPG on the highway going 69 MPH. I'm guessing the torque converter not locking up is why my highway MPG is a few MPGs less then it should be, but why would my power be so crappy? My in town mileage is about 13-14 driving very carefully which I'm not TOO upset about, but I do think it's not that great.

What else can I check?

Plugs have been changed, fuel filter was changed, FPR was checked, air filter replaced, and so on.

My girlfriend called the tranny shop that I usually go to because I was at work and they didn't really give her a straight answer. I told her to ask if they can check if it's the actual torque converter that's bad or the TCC solenoid. They told her that if that code comes on that they just replace a bunch of stuff and it costs $1800. It kind of pissed me off. I'm going to call around again next week.

That may solve me mileage problem, but what about my power situation?

I hope somebody has more ideas then I do!

[BodybyFisher]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

[95SevilleSLS]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

[BodybyFisher]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

Then it is not going into OD/4th, that would explain your high speed MPG disappointment as the engine is running at a higher RPM that it would be if it was in OD.

I don't know if there is a way to easily diagnose whether its the the converter or the solenoid, I think that can be determined using a TECH 2.

[95SevilleSLS]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

Then it is not going into OD/4th, that would explain your high speed MPG disappointment as the engine is running at a higher RPM that it would be if it was in OD.

I don't know if there is a way to easily diagnose whether its the the converter or the solenoid, I think that can be determined using a TECH 2.

I thought we were testing if the torque converter is locking up or not. I didn't think we were trying to see if I have 4th. Technically If I was testing to see if I had 4th, couldn't I put it into third and go 60 and if it runs the same RPM and such wouldn't that also tell me if it's not going into OD/4th?

Either was I can't really test it today with the 40 MPH wind, I don't think that would be a good test. I did go 60 though for a while against the wind and it was 2200 RPM.

[BodybyFisher]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

Then it is not going into OD/4th, that would explain your high speed MPG disappointment as the engine is running at a higher RPM that it would be if it was in OD.

I don't know if there is a way to easily diagnose whether its the the converter or the solenoid, I think that can be determined using a TECH 2.

I thought we were testing if the torque converter is locking up or not. I didn't think we were trying to see if I have 4th. Technically If I was testing to see if I had 4th, couldn't I put it into third and go 60 and if it runs the same RPM and such wouldn't that also tell me if it's not going into OD/4th?

Either was I can't really test it today with the 40 MPH wind, I don't think that would be a good test. I did go 60 though for a while against the wind and it was 2200 RPM.

I often refer to OD as the 4th gear probably erroneously.

THAT SAID, lets NOT play with semantics here, you are sounding testy toward me for some reason and I have been with you from the beginning with this.

THE POINT IS, IF you tap the brake over 41 and you DON'T GET a RISE IN RPM, you are NOT going into OD or LOCKUP. The code you get TCC STUCK OFF tells me that, are you still getting that CODE?

[JimD]

On my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS I've been having crappy mileage since I bought it and everyone has been telling me that it's about normal, but then I bought a 2000 DTS and I got about 3-5 more miles to the gallon....

Above is from the first post in the thread. The powertrains in these two cars are virtually identical.

I would not expect a failure of torque converter lockup - OD - 4th gear operation to result in a 3-5 MPG penalty.

And torque converter lockup - OD - 4th gear are all terms used to describe the exact same mechanical operation. The terminology depends on who is writing the script; engineering or design or advertising or ?

Something else, or a combination of several something elses, is going on here.

[95SevilleSLS]

THere is a test to see if you the TCC is engaging. Drive 60 on the highway, look at the TACH, you should be around 1900 RPM + without lifting your right foot, with your left foot tap the brake, you should see the RPM jump about 200 RPM.

If it doesn't, will it be the torque converter or the TCC solenoid? Or can we tell at that point?

Then it is not going into OD/4th, that would explain your high speed MPG disappointment as the engine is running at a higher RPM that it would be if it was in OD.

I don't know if there is a way to easily diagnose whether its the the converter or the solenoid, I think that can be determined using a TECH 2.

I thought we were testing if the torque converter is locking up or not. I didn't think we were trying to see if I have 4th. Technically If I was testing to see if I had 4th, couldn't I put it into third and go 60 and if it runs the same RPM and such wouldn't that also tell me if it's not going into OD/4th?

Either was I can't really test it today with the 40 MPH wind, I don't think that would be a good test. I did go 60 though for a while against the wind and it was 2200 RPM.

I often refer to OD as the 4th gear probably erroneously.

THAT SAID, lets NOT play with semantics here, you are sounding testy toward me for some reason and I have been with you from the beginning with this.

THE POINT IS, IF you tap the brake over 41 and you DON'T GET a RISE IN RPM, you are NOT going into OD or LOCKUP. The code you get TCC STUCK OFF tells me that, are you still getting that CODE?

I'm really not quite sure how you took that as me being "testy" when all I was doing was asking questions. I was not at all being cranky or mean in anyway. I was just simply stating that I thought 4th gear and lockup were two totally different things. I always thought there were 4 gears and then in 3rd or 4th gear you can have torque converter lock up. That's how I've always heard it anyway.

I just got this from a different forum and this is how I've actually always heard it said:

OD is not torque converter lock up. its 4th gear.

To clear up some confusion.

1= 1st gear

2= 2nd gear

3= 3rd gear

D= 4th gear

If you have the other column markings then it goes like this.

1= 1st gear

2= 2nd gear

D= 3rd gear

OD= 4th gear.

Torqure converter lock up happens in 3rd and 4th gears.

So that's why there was confusion because I thought you were completely jumping off the torque converter problem and I was simply asking why you did. I thought you were going on another lead or something. That's all that was.

And yes I do still have the P0741 code and that's the only code I get. Besides my shock code of course.

[Ranger]

I was just simply stating that I thought 4th gear and lockup were two totally different things.

Correct.

[95SevilleSLS]

I was just simply stating that I thought 4th gear and lockup were two totally different things.

Correct.

That's what I thought. That's why I was so confused. If 4th gear was torque converter lock-up, wouldn't that just be a 3 speed tranny with torque converter lock-up? I just spent half an hour looking all over the internet and everywhere it says that in a 4 speed transmission with torque converter lock-up there are 4 gears and there is torque converter lock-up in 3rd and 4th gear. And come to think of it, my future father-in-law who was a GM mechanic for a long time was telling me a while ago how some tranny in the 80's had 4th gear on the outside of the transmission and that it was an actual extra gear. And lock-up is exclusively in the torque converter, obviously.

BBF, that's why I was asking those questions because I thought you were jumping off the lock-up issue and going towards an actual transmission issue. Way to get me confused!

[BodybyFisher]

On my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS I've been having crappy mileage since I bought it and everyone has been telling me that it's about normal, but then I bought a 2000 DTS and I got about 3-5 more miles to the gallon....

And torque converter lockup - OD - 4th gear are all terms used to describe the exact same mechanical operation. The terminology depends on who is writing the script; engineering or design or advertising or ?

That is what I thought also Jim, that OD was 4th gear, and I made that statement once here, and someone disputed me, stating that TCC engagement was a 1:1 lockup and it could engage in either 3rd OR 4th gear. I confirmed that statement in the rebuilding manual I have also, I will scan and post the paragraph.

I would like to know IF TC lockup is in fact the 4th gear. Is that what you think also?