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No power/Bad gas mileage


95SevilleSLS

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On my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS I've been having crappy mileage since I bought it and everyone has been telling me that it's about normal, but then I bought a 2000 DTS and I got about 3-5 more miles to the gallon. I also noticed that on the DTS it took a lot less pressure on the gas pedal to get it going then it did on the STS. In other words the DTS felt more "snappy" and the STS feels like it's a job just to get up to speed.

I found out one day that my parking brake cable was dragging on the passenger side. I only took off that side and put it back where it was supposed to be. Could it be that both of them are still dragging a little bit causing the crappy mileage/sluggish take off?

Why I suspected this the other day is because I tried to get going on snow/ice and it was REALLY hard. It has brand new tires and it stops very easily, but it was almost impossible to get going. So that's why I'm thinking my back breaks are hanging up a bit holding me back.

I have high hopes that it's this and not something else, but I really am out of options/ideas on what else it could be. Can anyone else concur with me?? :)

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

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I am not too sure about this, if your back brakes were dragging you would be smoking, glowing red and very hot.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I am not too sure about this, if your back brakes were dragging you would be smoking, glowing red and very hot.

True, but if they were only dragging just a little they wouldn't do that. That's the only thing I can think of though. The other day I was cruising at 68 MPH and only got 20 MPG! The 93 deville that I just got get's over 25 MPG with the same driving habits.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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It might not be that noticeable.

I once bought a used Peugeot (77 504 diesel (please don't ban me from this forum :D )) and had the dealer install a cruise control. Everything was great ('cept for the power .. I tell my sons that I learned how to drive fast with slow cars ... which is actually true!).

So, there were a couple of occasions where driving down a country road that the car would slow down and stop, engine running, stomp on the loud pedal and no go! One other time in the snow going gently around a curve the rear just slid out and I did a 180 into someones front yard for no apparent reason (I had done many prior to that on purpose).

I eventually discovered that the cruise control device had a little clamp on the brake pedal shaft and it had slipped down and interfered with something else in such a way that the brake pedal never fully released. That caused a slight drag which caused the brakes to drag slightly and cause that spin out in the snow and if driven long enough it caused the brake fluid to heat up and expand enough to stop the car (ok, against a small amount of hp!).

There was no odor or evidence of anything that was too hot, etc.

Other that that is was a great car ... I drove a lot of dirt roads fast and that was a great suspension! And I mean four wheels off the ground fast ... when it landed it was like, no problem, what do you want me to do next? My father's Taurus would complain and bottom out at way lower speeds at the same spot.

So, I guess the point is that a little break drag can be more significant than you might expect, and do not underestimate an old Peugeot on a bad road.

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If your brakes were dragging at 68 mph to such an extent as to cause you a loss of 5 mpg, I expect you'd see a fire engine in your rear view mirror. Assuming of course, you could see through the smoke! I'm going to disregard that possibility for the moment. You'll understand.

You have all the symptoms of a plugged CAT. No codes? Are you certain? How many miles?

Regards,

Warren

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Also what pressure do you have in your tires?

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

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What size wheels are on that car also?, you are not running larger than stock are you?

Are you using 87 octane? That might not matter as I think your engine runs on 87, is that correct?

Why don't you jack the rear up and turn the wheels to see if you have drag.

Could the winter gas formula be causing this with ethanol?

What is the final drive ratio difference between all of the cars you are comparing. One of the drawbacks to the STS is a lower MPG spec due to the final drive ratio. The SLS is faster off the line compared to the STS.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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What size wheels are on that car also?, you are not running larger than stock are you?

Are you using 87 octane? That might not matter as I think your engine runs on 87, is that correct?

Why don't you jack the rear up and turn the wheels to see if you have drag.

Could the winter gas formula be causing this with ethanol?

What is the final drive ratio difference between all of the cars you are comparing. One of the drawbacks to the STS is a lower MPG spec due to the final drive ratio. The SLS is faster off the line compared to the STS.

DTS and STS have the exact same final drive ratio, so those two should be getting pretty close to exactly the same mileage or the STS should be getting slightly better, but it's getting much worse. Yes I am using 87 octance and yes it was designed to run on it. I'll jack it up this weekend if I have time. It can't be gas related or anything like that because the DTS was run on EXACTLY the same components as the STS is and it was driven EXACTLY the same also.

I have about 32 lbs of air in the tires, exactly the same as the DTS had. And yes the are stock 17" rims, same as the DTS was.

I replaced the cat with a different one and it did not make any difference.

I don't think I'm going to mess with the car anymore. It's been nothing but problems since I bought it. I think I'm just going to sell it and get an older one. I have a torque converter problem (P0741 code), stabilitrak issues, engine knocks at cold start-up, a $800 shock to replace, and this gas mileage/power problem. Oh and I can't STAND the magnaride, but that is something I could live with. I am short on money to begin with and this car is breaking me. I'm just getting fed up with all the problems. I figured it out how much it's going to cost me to fix the problems. $2300 for just the P0741 code and the shock and who knows what the other problems will cost. I think it's time to let it go.

Does anyone know how old of a Cadillac I can put the navigation into? Can I put it in a 98 or even older?

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

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That's too bad but I understand what you mean. Is the P0741 code stopping you from going into overdrive, or is it just slipping too much (the converter)? That would be a good reason for your gas mileage problems, Ill bet. Check your tranny fluid life remaining, I am curious if this torque convertor problem is creating any heat that the PCM has detected, and whether it has decreased the fluid's life at all..

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I'm not sure if it's slipping or if it's just no engaging at all, I think it's slipping. The P0741 code would not cause crappy mileage around town and the crappy power though. I'm going to jack it up this weekend and check the back wheels for kicks and giggles. The car is so darn cool looking I don't want to get rid of it!

Oh and the fluid life is 99% and I check it every month or so and it's not burnt and it doesn't smell. It still looks very red too.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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My daughters first car had a dragging brake. No smoke, no fire, but the same sluggish symptoms. Don't overlook the possibility.

I'm really hoping that's what's going on. I'm going to check that this weekend. 40 degrees on Saturday! Major heat wave!

Another reason why I think they are dragging is because the rear rotors are warped. It started vibrating quite a bit when I pushed on the brakes and you could tell it was the back. I might dress up warm and do it tonight if I get anxious.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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I let my future father-in-law drive in today and he went 130 miles all highway and I had already had 140 in town miles and I ended up with 16.5 MPG. k

Okay so I jacked it up and checked the passenger wheel first and it was somewhat difficult to turn the wheel and it did not continue to spin after I gave it a good spin. It just stopped as soon as I let go of it. I unhooked the parking brake cable and made sure that everything was loose and it still stopped after I let go. I thought whatever and just put the wheel back on. It doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Here are my symptoms, they may or may not be related:

Needs a lot more throttle to get the same accelration as the DTS had.

Very difficult to get going on snow and ice. Both 93 deville and DTS were better.

20-21 MPG on highway and 26-27 with DTS.

11-14 MPG in town and 16-17 with DTS.

Same driving habits (maybe worse with the DTS), same gas, and same tire pressure.

I guess you could say that the Seville feels really gutless unless you completely floor it.

I understand how the P0741 code could loose mileage on the highway, but that much? But It shouldn't affect mileage when you're driving under 40 MPH (in town), right?

I'm stuck, does anyone have any other ideas?

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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I think you are minimizing the impact of the P0741. If I put my tranny in 3, defeating OD, my MPG drops about 5 MPG and my RPM jumps up about 500 RPM...

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Is it possible that the torque convertor's stator is slipping internally and not multiplying the torque normally. That would impact your performance,

See this

TORQUE CONVERTER PROBLEMS

Now that you know a little more about how a torque converter works, let's look at some of the things that go wrong. One of the classic symptoms of a bad torque converter is a vehicle that is sluggish or lugs when starting out from a dead stop. The vehicle may feel as if it is in second or third gear rather than first gear. What's happening is the torque converter is failing to provide any torque multiplication because the one-way stator clutch is not holding, allowing the stator wheel to slip.

To test the torque converter, you need to perform a "stall test." A stall test will reveal the maximum engine rpm that converter can handle with the brakes applied. Before doing the test, make sure the engine and transmission are both at normal operating temperature (drive the vehicle, if necessary, to warm things up), and that the fluid level inside the transmission is between "full" and "add" on the dipstick. Look up the stall speed specifications for the vehicle being tested, then connect a tachometer or scan tool to the vehicle to monitor engine speed.

To perform a stall test:

1. Block the wheels. Do not allow anyone to stand in front of or behind the vehicle.

2. Start the engine and place the transmission in Drive.

3. While pressing firmly on the brake pedal with your left foot, use your right foot to press down on the accelerator pedal. Increase engine speed until engine rpm will go no higher. Then release the accelerator pedal and allow the engine to return to idle. Note the maximum stall speed rpm (typically 1,500 to 2,200 rpm) and compare to specs.

If the engine stall speed is higher than specifications, the transmission is slipping (probably a holding clutch or band).

If the engine stall speed is lower than specifications, the torque converter is defective (stator is slipping), or the engine is not producing normal power (engine problem).

Note: the duration of a stall speed test should not exceed five seconds. The churning of the fluid inside the converter during this test produces a lot of heat, so let things cool down for a few minutes before repeating the test if necessary. For this reason, some vehicle manufacturers do not recommend performing a stall test, so always follow the vehicle manufacturer's recommended service procedures.

Sometimes a stator wheel will hang up and remain locked at high speed. If this happens it will act like a speed brake, causing the torque converter to fight against itself. The car may start out and drive normally at low speed, but as speed starts to build the engine will strain harder and harder to overcome the resistance. If the engine won't rev much beyond 3,000 rpm in neutral, the stator is definitely hung up.

Another driveability problem which may be blamed on the torque converter is a driveline shudder. A shudder may occur if the torque converter lockup clutch has problems engaging, usually because of low apply pressure. In most causes, the low pressure is an internal transmission problem, not a bad torque converter.

If a vehicle experiences a vibration or rattling sensation while driving, the torque converter may be transmitting an engine misfire through the driveline. The problem here isn't a bad torque converter, but whatever is making the engine misfire.

If a vehicle's fuel economy suddenly drops three to four miles per gallon, but the engine seems to be running normally (no misfiring or loss of power), the problem may be a lockup torque converter that isn't locking up. If the torque converter clutch (TCC) fails to engage, the vehicle will still drive normally, but with increased slippage between the engine and transmission. The underlying cause is usually a bad TCC solenoid, but loss of the vehicle speed input signal to the computer may also prevent the computer from energizing the TCC solenoid.

One way to see if the computer is energizing the TCC solenoid is to connect a scan tool to the vehicle and take it for a test drive. The TCC on/off command should change as the vehicle speed changes. No change? Then check for a vehicle speed signal.

On many General Motors applications, a test light can also be used to check the TCC command signal. Connect one of the test light leads to ground, and insert the other into the "F" terminal in the diagnostic connector. When the computer sends an "on" command to the TCC solenoid, the test light should illuminate. If the light fails to come on or flickers, you've got a wiring or computer problem. But even if the light comes on normally, it doesn't tell you if the TCC solenoid is actually working or that the torque converter is locking up.

To test for proper lockup, connect a tachometer to the engine or use a scan tool to monitor engine rpm. Then take the vehicle for a test drive on a flat level road. At 50 mph, lightly apply the brake pedal - not enough to actually slow the vehicle, but just enough to momentarily disengage the torque converter clutch. You should see about a 150 to 250 rpm increase in engine speed if the TCC is working properly. The rpm should then drop the same amount when you take your foot off the brake and the clutch re-engages. No change in engine speed would tell you the converter isn't locking up.

Sometimes a torque converter clutch will fail to release. When this happens, it can stall the engine when the vehicle comes to a stop. The problem here is usually a defective TCC solenoid.

Credit to:

<a href="http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf90054.htm" target="_blank">http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf90054.htm</a>

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Okay so I jacked it up and checked the passenger wheel first and it was somewhat difficult to turn the wheel and it did not continue to spin after I gave it a good spin. It just stopped as soon as I let go of it. I unhooked the parking brake cable and made sure that everything was loose and it still stopped after I let go.

This does not sound normal. Maybe it is not parking brake related. Check the slide pins.

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Is it possible that the torque convertor's stator is slipping internally and not multiplying the torque normally. That would impact your performance,

See this

TORQUE CONVERTER PROBLEMS

Now that you know a little more about how a torque converter works, let's look at some of the things that go wrong. One of the classic symptoms of a bad torque converter is a vehicle that is sluggish or lugs when starting out from a dead stop. The vehicle may feel as if it is in second or third gear rather than first gear. What's happening is the torque converter is failing to provide any torque multiplication because the one-way stator clutch is not holding, allowing the stator wheel to slip.

To test the torque converter, you need to perform a "stall test." A stall test will reveal the maximum engine rpm that converter can handle with the brakes applied. Before doing the test, make sure the engine and transmission are both at normal operating temperature (drive the vehicle, if necessary, to warm things up), and that the fluid level inside the transmission is between "full" and "add" on the dipstick. Look up the stall speed specifications for the vehicle being tested, then connect a tachometer or scan tool to the vehicle to monitor engine speed.

To perform a stall test:

1. Block the wheels. Do not allow anyone to stand in front of or behind the vehicle.

2. Start the engine and place the transmission in Drive.

3. While pressing firmly on the brake pedal with your left foot, use your right foot to press down on the accelerator pedal. Increase engine speed until engine rpm will go no higher. Then release the accelerator pedal and allow the engine to return to idle. Note the maximum stall speed rpm (typically 1,500 to 2,200 rpm) and compare to specs.

If the engine stall speed is higher than specifications, the transmission is slipping (probably a holding clutch or band).

If the engine stall speed is lower than specifications, the torque converter is defective (stator is slipping), or the engine is not producing normal power (engine problem).

Note: the duration of a stall speed test should not exceed five seconds. The churning of the fluid inside the converter during this test produces a lot of heat, so let things cool down for a few minutes before repeating the test if necessary. For this reason, some vehicle manufacturers do not recommend performing a stall test, so always follow the vehicle manufacturer's recommended service procedures.

Sometimes a stator wheel will hang up and remain locked at high speed. If this happens it will act like a speed brake, causing the torque converter to fight against itself. The car may start out and drive normally at low speed, but as speed starts to build the engine will strain harder and harder to overcome the resistance. If the engine won't rev much beyond 3,000 rpm in neutral, the stator is definitely hung up.

Another driveability problem which may be blamed on the torque converter is a driveline shudder. A shudder may occur if the torque converter lockup clutch has problems engaging, usually because of low apply pressure. In most causes, the low pressure is an internal transmission problem, not a bad torque converter.

If a vehicle experiences a vibration or rattling sensation while driving, the torque converter may be transmitting an engine misfire through the driveline. The problem here isn't a bad torque converter, but whatever is making the engine misfire.

If a vehicle's fuel economy suddenly drops three to four miles per gallon, but the engine seems to be running normally (no misfiring or loss of power), the problem may be a lockup torque converter that isn't locking up. If the torque converter clutch (TCC) fails to engage, the vehicle will still drive normally, but with increased slippage between the engine and transmission. The underlying cause is usually a bad TCC solenoid, but loss of the vehicle speed input signal to the computer may also prevent the computer from energizing the TCC solenoid.

One way to see if the computer is energizing the TCC solenoid is to connect a scan tool to the vehicle and take it for a test drive. The TCC on/off command should change as the vehicle speed changes. No change? Then check for a vehicle speed signal.

On many General Motors applications, a test light can also be used to check the TCC command signal. Connect one of the test light leads to ground, and insert the other into the "F" terminal in the diagnostic connector. When the computer sends an "on" command to the TCC solenoid, the test light should illuminate. If the light fails to come on or flickers, you've got a wiring or computer problem. But even if the light comes on normally, it doesn't tell you if the TCC solenoid is actually working or that the torque converter is locking up.

To test for proper lockup, connect a tachometer to the engine or use a scan tool to monitor engine rpm. Then take the vehicle for a test drive on a flat level road. At 50 mph, lightly apply the brake pedal - not enough to actually slow the vehicle, but just enough to momentarily disengage the torque converter clutch. You should see about a 150 to 250 rpm increase in engine speed if the TCC is working properly. The rpm should then drop the same amount when you take your foot off the brake and the clutch re-engages. No change in engine speed would tell you the converter isn't locking up.

Sometimes a torque converter clutch will fail to release. When this happens, it can stall the engine when the vehicle comes to a stop. The problem here is usually a defective TCC solenoid.

Credit to:

<a href="http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf90054.htm" target="_blank">http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf90054.htm</a>

That was an awesome post! Thanks!

That sounds a lot like what's happening and it's not off the wall because I am having the P0741 code so it's obvious that I'm having a torque converter problem. I'm not sure if I'm happy that I may have a solution or pissed that it ends up being that because that will be EXPENSIVE to fix. I don't have the tools or space to fix it so I wouldn't be able to do it. I do have a tranny shop that may not charge too much. Maybe I should find a used tranny. But then I have to worry if that one has the same problem.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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Cool Dusty, I hope that helps, do check the rear brakes, but it certainly sounds like your converter is cooked.. Try the stall test and see what you find.. Mike

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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Cool Dusty, I hope that helps, do check the rear brakes, but it certainly sounds like your converter is cooked.. Try the stall test and see what you find.. Mike

I found a bunch of converters for cheap, but getting it in is the expensive part. I'll do a stall test and report back tomorrow.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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Wheel bearing beginning to seize, I think this would make a noticeable humming noise but maybe not.

That would make sense because earlier last year the parking brake cable got stuck and the rotor got red hot for about 2 months until I found out about it.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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You are talking a 4 mile per gallon drop on average, that is a 25% drop in MPG at 16 MPG. For that to happen the drag would need to be severe. If it was that severe you would be seeing symptoms. Your brakes would wear out, you would see smoke, smell burning, feel the car jerk when you stopped due to the grab and it might create dog tracking. A bearing that bad would self destruct from the heat and you would start getting ABS messages due to the coil being overheated.

As you said, with the P0741 code, the converter is suspect. I wish we could see a breakdown of the Cadillac torque convertor especially one that is bad. I am going to contact a torque convertor manufacturer/rebuilder to see what kinds of problems can be had.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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I found a terrific explanation of torque converters. This poster 'silverfox' knows his stuff. Make sure you read the section on Problems. There an an explantion of the stall test also. Good Stuff

http://www.clickclickracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3995

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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