woody Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Forum, Woody here. I just got a call from the dealer and they tested the car and their pressure tool that I guess turns color when pressure is built up is not showing a problem. I told them that when I did drive it up to the local shop the heat was cold at idle and then I did get heat while driving. They are going to drive it for a bit and do a couple of more tests and call me back. Any ideas? Now I am really at a loss for dianosis. Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 A lot of things can cause overheating, everything from leaves in the radiator to a slipping water pump belt. A sticky thermostat or clogging in the radiator are common. Sometimes a radiator hose will get crimped or collapse. If you don't like what you hear from the dealer, of if he's stumped, get a second opinion. Take it to a radiator shop when you get it back and have the coolant tested for combustion products and for life if the anti-freeze. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I did have the fluid changed about 6 months ago when I had the waterpump and crossover manifold changed. It can't hurt I guess to have a radiator shop check it out. Would these possible problems allow false readings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Probably not. Did they change the water pump belt and tensioner when they changed the water pump? -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I changes the the tension belt my selfwith a freind. Is there seperate belt for the water pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I changes the the tension belt my selfwith a freind. Is there seperate belt for the water pump? Yes there is a small water pump belt and tensioner at the drivers side front of the engine, you will see a pulley turning off the cam Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Are these hard to replace? How do you tell if the tensioner is bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Are these hard to replace? How do you tell if the tensioner is bad? I was going to type a detailed reply but it's much easier to post the link to my water pump belt thread. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13596 Keep in mind that this is for a 94 and you have a 97. Shouldn't be all that different though. Others may want to edit my info to comply with your 97. You'll know if the tensioner is bad. The belt will start flapping and shaking like it's going to take off (the new belt). "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Thanks Ranger I will read through it. Can't wait to see what the dealer has to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Thanks Ranger I will read through it. Can't wait to see what the dealer has to say Ranger.....Regis....close enough. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Just got the call from the dealership they ran the car and the pressure check is failing. So the the entire head gasket repair including rear main, pan gasket, case half, time cert, and torque converter seal is $4400 Now I need to call the other guy I know. Need some serious help on this one. Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Ok I just got off the phone with the guy I am going to have repair the car and tell the dealer thanks but no thanks. This guy Mark owned his own shop for 6 years and has worked for his Dad at his shop since he was 10. Here repairs antique motors also and has done 6 Northstar head gaskets. He has access to a GM discount since he works there now and writes manuals for engines. He assured me the job will be done right and stated he would take a huge bite off the dealer price. Looks like Thursday the car goes to his shop. I will post updates. Maybe there is good out there. Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I would specifically ask and make sure that he is going to Timesert the head bolts. Not thread inserts, not Helicoils...TIMESERTS. That, along with the proper repair procedures, will almost guarantee an engine that will last "forever". Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 I would venture that the dealer is repeating a smörgåsbord of all known problems for your model year from the tech. One of the problems with dealer engine work on older cars is that the GM warranty requires that all work on the engine be done by free, and the tech doesn't get paid for come-backs. So, if they work on it under those conditions, they will simply overhaul the engine. You might need only a water pump belt. Let your mechanic look at it with an open mind. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Jim, Thanks for the tip. I will have my new guy check it out and not suddenly assume head gasket alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Jim, Thanks for the tip. I will have my new guy check it out and not suddenly assume head gasket alone. I don't believe that is what the dealer is doing. It seems to have failed some test, but in my humble opinion the testing is not extensive enough or has not been described by you well (not a criticism but conjecture on my part). You asked them to do other work because of us, which made sense while the engine is out, including case half seals, torque converter seal and rear seal. IF, your case half is NOT leaking, you probably can drop that procedure and cut your price, I do not believe that the rear seal and torque converter seal are adding that much, but it would be good to know how much they attribute to each procedure that you have asked them to perform. Do me a favor visit the dealer and get a specific answer from them about the test that you said was failing. Your statement "Just got the call from the dealership they ran the car and the pressure check is failing", is somewhat vague. What does "the pressure check is failing", what pressure check?, ask them to specifically tell you what failed, what test, what component, what. Tell them you are about to spend a lot of money and you need details. My guess is that they did a cooling system pressure test(1) and it leaked down. DON'T lead them, let them tell you! If your engine failed the cooling system pressurization test, ask them if they did a 1) compression test on each cylinder and 2) ask them if they tested the coolant for hydrocarbons. Before you spend the money, you need to know this. Ask them to provide you with the data for each cylinder's compression PSI. There is one thing that bothers me about what they told you, the cooling system pressure test is done with the engine COOL and the engine OFF..that does not jive with this statement you made "they ran the car and the pressure check is failing". Try to act dumb but with smart questions (like Columbo) armed with the info you are learning here and let them talk, flatter the service manager, with "I need to pick your brain since you see this stuff all the time so I can make a good decision", take notes when he talks. Tell them you have a friend, you want to discuss it with before you go for your lungs. Ask to speak to the service manager NOT the service writer. Make a list of questions, something doesnt sound right to me, but it could be because something is being lost in the translation. (1)What I never understood is where does the coolant go when they do this test?, if it seeps into the cylinder under this pressure test due to a bad head gasket, there is a danger of hydrolocking the piston (something to think about). Happy New Year, Mike Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Mike, All great info. I am heading over to the dealer at lunch today and post what I find out. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Ok I talked to the service Mgr. They did the coolant pressure test cold after looking at the car on the hoist and did not see any leaks. After that they drove it for 8 miles to let it heat up and did the test again and it showed color change in the hydorcarbons. They did NOT check each cylinder. I asked why and he stated from experience knowing when you pull each plug you can find the leak. I asked if the coolant was leaking down into the cylinder what would happen. He stated it would leak into the piston and get burned out the exhaust. There was no mention of hydolocking the piston. So here is the list of what is included from the dealer: (2) Head gaskets and bolts (2) Valve cover gaskets Intake gaskets Front cover seal & gasket Oil filter Oil Oil manifold Oil pan gasket Anirobic Sealer (2) Coolant Time certs R134 & oil Power steering fluid Torque converter seal Trans fluid Sealing tabs Oil drain plug Thermostat & gasket Permatex sealer Coolant nipple Dowel pins Thread locker (4) Crossover gaskets Waterpump cover gasket The warrenty is 12 months 12,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 So now what are you thinking? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Mike, I am thinking I want a quote from the this other guy Mark. He told me he would do the job. He has all the credentials. What's your thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Mike, I am thinking I want a quote from the this other guy Mark. He told me he would do the job. He has all the credentials. What's your thought? Well there is no question he will be cheaper the only thing that worries me is what happens if something goes wrong and you have the problem again in 6 months, will he honor a warranty? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 That is the million dollar question and I need to address that when I talk to him tonight. I think he will. From talking to him he mentioned his shop was across the street from the company I work for and he use to repair all the owners cars and there was also a guy I knew that worked at my company that had classic and antique cars he also worked on. I am hoping a warranty is in order. I am shooting for the same as the dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 All, Well I thought it over and I have decide to let Mark fix my car and keep the dealer from putting an addition on their new show room with my money. The worst case price is $3400 compared to the dealer cost of $4600 and I know the dealer did not include the timing chains on the quote. They would probably give me a call back once the car was apart and tell me I needed them. I save at least $1200 maybe more. Mark stated he would look the repair over and see if some things are good we may not need to change out parts just because. The bill from the dealer is $89 to release the car. Looks like he is going to start working on it tonight. Thanks again for all the feedback and advise. I will post updates. Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I remember the guru saying that the timing chain is not a wear item on these engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 As Ed stated there is NO reason to replace the timing chains they are good for the life of the engine. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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