95SevilleSLS Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Hey everybody, I have a question. My 2000 DTS does not knock or tick at all when I first start it when it's cold, but when I start the 02 seville when it's cold it knocks or ticks pretty loud. Is there something they changed in 02 or should I be worried? I know that my 6.0 in my 01 suburban used to make the same noise when it was cold. But since my DTS isn't doing it and it appears to be the same engine, it is starting to worry me a little. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Are you using the same oil in each? Mine has lots of knocking till it warms also but mine is a 96, once its warm all is fine.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Cold carbon rap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yep, identical oil and filter in each. I was thinking it may be the carbon build up, but don't you think the deville would be doing it too since it has more miles? -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Different engines, try doing the WOT procedure to see if it goes away... You through me off when you said TICK, its a RAP not a TICK By the way what oil are you using??? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Cold carbon rap? That would be my guess. Time to flog it... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 What's the difference between a rap and a tick? Would it be easier to maybe record it on the video camera and load it on youtube? I am using Shaeffer oil. Expensive, but well worth it. What's different about the engines? The only difference I could notice was the deville has a electronic EGR and the Seville has a vacuum EGR. Yeah, I was planning on a WOT. I haven't done that in awhile. I'll see if it helps. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 What's the difference between a rap and a tick? Would it be easier to maybe record it on the video camera and load it on youtube? I am using Shaeffer oil. Expensive, but well worth it. What's different about the engines? The only difference I could notice was the deville has a electronic EGR and the Seville has a vacuum EGR. Yeah, I was planning on a WOT. I haven't done that in awhile. I'll see if it helps. A tick can be valve train related, an exhaust leak, a knock is the piston hitting the head due to build up of carbon Let me be more clear, what viscosity of oil 5W, 10W? Synthetic? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 What's the difference between a rap and a tick? It's in the ear of the beholder. When I first experienced cold carbon rap on my '97, it sounded exactly like collapsed lifters (tick) to me. Turned out it was cold carbon "rap". Your 2000 & 2002 have the same EGR valves (electronic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Also they both have direct acting roller CAMS. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You should have asked for the viscosity if you wanted it! It's 5-30 partial synthetic. The EGR valves on the two look completely different. The one on the deville looks like a normal electronic EGR while the EGR on the 02 has a vacuum hose coming out of it and it looks completely different. It looks more like the EGR on my 92 chevy. No wires coming to or from the one on the 02. I would think that it's safe to assume that it's non-electronic. BBF, you had said earlier that the engines were different, I thought they weren't. I thought it 2000 they recieved a few minor modifications such as the roller cams and the different bolt pattern for the heads, but I didn't think they had changed anything in the engine for 02 unless I am mistaken. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 the EGR on the 02 has a vacuum hose coming out of it and it looks completely different. I think you are looking at the AIR pump check valve. The EGR valves should be the same and in the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Huh...I'll have to check again. I'm probably completly wrong. Did the 2000 have that check vavle in the same spot as the 02? -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Not 100% sure, but I think so. I believe there are also variants (1, 2 or no air pumps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthstarAJ Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Subject: Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Replace Pistons) #03-06-01-025 - (09/02/2003) Models: 2000-2002 Cadillac Eldorado 2000-2003 Cadillac DeVille, Seville with 4.6L Engine (VINs Y, 9 -- RPOs LD8, L37) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Built Prior to the Following VIN Breakpoints: Model VIN Breakpoint DeVille 3U213641 Seville 3U215818 12.58 second Northstar with a GM/Cadillac PCM Cadillac Technician @ Crest Cadillac Brookfield WI Hometown Washougal WA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 I read somewhere that the wrist pins can make noise (to be described as a light ticking noise) that can be heard from outside of the vehicle. Mine makes a light ticking/tapping noise at idle also, regardless of oil type, temperature, etc. What I read said that it was considered a normal condition, with no repair necessary. I'm trying to dig up that piece of information now. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 If I were in the business of making money on car repairs/service then I would certainly suggest the route of parts replacement. From the stand point of any dealer it just makes sense. Less time, effort, and more money... simple logic. And while I was in there replacing parts I would certainly scrape away any carbon build up... just in case (wink wink). From a liability stand point it would be ridiculous to expect any dealer to recommend doing WOTs. Can you imagine 80 year drivers performing WOTs on their caddys??? Just imagine that.... scary. I'm anxious to see if Jason finds that little tidbit that he posted about. Sounds interesting. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Only thing I've come across so far is this: A cold piston knock which disappears in 1.5 minutes should be considered acceptable. A cold engine knock usually disappears when the specific cylinder's secondary ignition circuit is grounded out during diagnosis. I know I've read about a wrist pin knock, though. I will keep looking. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 I don't recall ever hearing about a wrist pin knock. CCR occurs when the piston hits the carbon build up on the head and then rocks on the wrist pin, causing the skirt to slap the cylinder wall. Could that be what you are thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 No, I distinctly remember reading about a tap/tick noise related to the wrist pin. The bulletin even said that the noise can sometimes be heard from outside the engine compartment, standing next to the car (as mine is). It's inaudible inside the cabin. It said the issue is with the wrist pins and that it's considered a normal noise. I'm still looking to try and track that down. I swore I read it in the electronic service manual, but I wasn't able to come up with it searching at home this weekend. I shall forge forward and continue to look. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 I would think it would be more likely to be in a TSB rather than the FSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Not FSM -- I have the CD version of GM SPO, all the service information, bulletins, etc. I read about it a while ago. I referenced said bulletin back in August here, but didn't record the number: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/north...tml#post1179049 It's frustrating looking for something you KNOW you've seen. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthstarAJ Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Not FSM -- I have the CD version of GM SPO, all the service information, bulletins, etc. I read about it a while ago. I referenced said bulletin back in August here, but didn't record the number: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/north...tml#post1179049 It's frustrating looking for something you KNOW you've seen. The piston have been redesigned. Subject: Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Replace Pistons) #03-06-01-025 - (09/02/2003) Condition Some customers may comment about a tick/knock noise, sometimes described as an upper engine ticking noise or a deep low knock that sounds similar to a main bearing knock. This noise is more often heard during engine start up after a long cold soak condition and may or may not diminish as the engine reaches normal operating temperature. The knock may appear to be the loudest at the exhaust manifolds on either side or both. This noise does not change when disconnecting spark plug wires, or individually disabling the fuel injectors. As a general rule, the source of this noise cannot be determined. Cause The source of this noise may be carbon deposits in the engine combustion chambers. . . . The carbon builds up on the piston top. This causes the piston to snap over in the dwell time. This is not a loose slapping piston, but a binding piston. The piston skirt then becomes crushed. This also excessive wear on the trust area of the cylinder wall. This is light carbon. This piston is no good. It was run for a long time with carbon build up. This had a Piston Ring carbon treatment. The ring were free when I pulled the pistons. Old piston and new beefier piston Worn skirt vs new coated skirt. New top vs old top Height and dome 12.58 second Northstar with a GM/Cadillac PCM Cadillac Technician @ Crest Cadillac Brookfield WI Hometown Washougal WA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 The pistons were replaced early on in my car's life, due to either this or the oil consumption issue. The engine was eventually replaced. However, I don't think any pistons were replaced in my replacement engine. My car is now out of GM's warranty, but it makes the noise that sounds eerily similar to the carbon knock. I suppose I'm out of luck for any piston replacement work, huh? Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthstarAJ Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 The pistons were replaced early on in my car's life, due to either this or the oil consumption issue. The engine was eventually replaced. However, I don't think any pistons were replaced in my replacement engine. My car is now out of GM's warranty, but it makes the noise that sounds eerily similar to the carbon knock. I suppose I'm out of luck for any piston replacement work, huh? 01 Hmmmmmm We had an engine dropped off today that was built in 03. I am not sure what it fits, but it is old. I know it is an 00+ L39. The last 03 engine I installed had paper work to get an VCI program for the PCM if you use it in an older car. This was the first time I had seen the instruction. 12.58 second Northstar with a GM/Cadillac PCM Cadillac Technician @ Crest Cadillac Brookfield WI Hometown Washougal WA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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