Astrak Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Good or bad idea? Every 6 months or so I get the low AC refrigerant service AC soon message in the DIC. I am currently still using R-12 which is expensive as hell to recharge I was just wondering if you guys think it is better to get the conversion or if it will cause problems with the AC system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I would fix the leak and leave it with R-12. It will cost less and work better. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Texas Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I converted my car about 9yrs ago. I had to replace the compressor anyway so I went ahead with the complete conversion. It's always worked well. I agree with Jim, keep it an R12 system. Fix the leak. If you can do that yourself and can do the evacuating/recharge yourself, getting a license to purchase R12 is just a matter of taking an open-book test. GM Reman 4.1 engine Dec '08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I converted my '88 Lincoln Mark VII to 134a and it worked fine. I purchased the kit from PepBoys for about $40 and followed the instructions. The R12 leaked out and I tried leak detector and leak fix and it actually worked. I didn't replace the compressor or dryer. If your compressor is leaking or if you need to spend over $100 to seal the R12 leak I would suggest converting it to 134a, especially if you plan on keeping your Eldorado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I converted my 81 caprice, 84 suburban, and 92 silverado. All of them work perfect now. I just bought a kit for $40 from walmart. Didn't replace anything. They aren't quite as efficient, but they get the job done just fine. My 81 caprice had a leak, I put the kit in and it holds it now. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve6 Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 What do you have to do for a r134a conversion? We dont have that regulation here... Some states its mandatory I know that (you cant get r12 for cars anymore), so you must be in a state that its not mandatory to have to convert the system.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 R12 is very expensive and hard to get isn't it? I believe that with 134a you much add more than you do with R12 for it to cool efficiently... Kevin (KHE) has spoken to this conversion quite a bit, I am sure he will pop in here. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Texas Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 eBay sellers have plenty R12 for sale, amazingly enough. A MACS license is needed to legally purchase R12, but getting one is only a matter of reading a few pages of info and taking an open-book test. $15 Converting to 134 you install 85% of the R12 charge. A 134 manifold gauge set should be used, but apparently the 'kits' are safe for use. 134 runs at higher pressures than 12, so therefore the 85% requirement. GM Reman 4.1 engine Dec '08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 eBay sellers have plenty R12 for sale, amazingly enough. A MACS license is needed to legally purchase R12, but getting one is only a matter of reading a few pages of info and taking an open-book test. $15 Converting to 134 you install 85% of the R12 charge. A 134 manifold gauge set should be used, but apparently the 'kits' are safe for use. 134 runs at higher pressures than 12, so therefore the 85% requirement. I knew there was a difference but was not sure if it was more or less 134a, thanks for clarifying. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Converting to R-134a will not fix the leak... The best route is to fix the leak and evacuate/recharge with R-12. R-12 is still available but you need EPA-609 certification to legally purchase it thanks to flawed studies that bamboozled our politicians to create all kinds of laws and regulations... R-12 prices have stabilized over the past few years - the last new car to use R-12 was the 1993 model year and most people don't want to spend the money to repair the A/C on a car that old - present company excluded. There is no mandate that an R-12 system be converted to R-134a. Please do not use a "compressor killer" conversion from a chain store to convert your car. Just because one person has not had any problems with them, doesn't mean that they are reliable to use. I have personally repaired systems that were converted in that manner - the story is always the same, "It was leaking so I convrted to R-134a and a month later, my compressor failed" To properly convert an R-12 system to R-134a requires flushing out all the mineral oil, replacing the accumulator with one that is compatable with R-134a, draining the oil out of the compressor, o-ring replacement, installing R-134a charge fittings and sometimes replacement of the condenser to a parallel flow design. That is a lot more expense than fixing the leak and recharging with R-12 but some still prefer to go that route so they can top off their own system. Do not be tempted to install a "sealer" as they are rarely effective and they ruin the filter on the flush machine... Installing a lesser amount of R-134a than what is specified for R-12 is also incorrect - the lesser amount will constantly set the low refrigerant code and disable the compressor. The proper charge of R-134a is the same amount that was specified for R-12. In other words, if the system was spec'd for 2.0 lbs. of R-12, then the correct charge of R-134a is 2.0 lbs. This was confirmed by an HVAC engineer at GM Powertrain and relayed by the guru that used to frequent this board. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 My dad also converted is 82 John Deere 4640 tractor and has yet to have problems. My caprice and silverado were converted 5 years ago at the same time and they have not had any compressor troubles. I've heard of many people doing around here and not having any problems. The only problem they complain about is that it doesn't cool as well. The only reason I wouldn't put R-12 back in an old system is because for one thing, it's probably going to develop another leak soon. Secondly you can buy the same size can of R-134 for $8 when a can of R-12 is $40. There is also another alternative to R-12, however. It's called Freeze-12. Not sure if you can still get it, but my dad has a tank the size of a propane tank full of the stuff. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve6 Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I put Duracool in my car, worked great, it was already a r134 system, BUT it says it can be used in a r12 system as well I mentioned it before here, and someone jumped down my throat..... use at your own descression, its a very cheap alternative, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I don't know a thing about it, but here is a link to the FAQ's, I am curious what others think http://www.duracool.com/-faq.html Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Duracool is a very cheap alternative and it works great... I run it in my "originally R12" 1987 Olds 442. It was an easy way to keep a working A/C system and retain all original "R-12" looking parts... R12 is all but impossible to get in Canada. Duracool does a very good job of hiding what their product is... This refrigerant is about 2/3 Propane and 1/3 Butane... or 100% Kaboom! Before I put this stuff in my "quazi collector car" that my son and I use to terrorized Honda with I wanted to make sure it is safe... For all kinds of reasons you will never get a strait answer if this product is safe or not. And technically it is illegal to use in the States as a refrigerant. To determine if it is safe or not you are on your own to figure this out... I weighed all of the evidence and decided it was "safe enough" for my car... 2 years later and I'm still happy and I still have my eyebrows. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 I've heard that propane actually cools pretty well. Not sure if I'd like to try it out though...just think if you have a leak. Not like there is any open sparks though under the hood, but one of your spark plug wires could get frayed and cause a spark. I don't think I'd want to use that stuff. It would be a good way to get back at someone. You want freon, here you go! Safe as can be, honest! -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Very true, it is a trade off... But if you look under your hood there is lots of stuff that goes Kaboom... like Gasoline... And people run cars on Propane, natural gas etc. If you are worried about flammable stuff under your hood... you need to buy a bicycle! Propane is heavier then air and will dissipate quickly especially with all of the air and "wind" under hood. Not to mention that you are talking about a few ounces of "fuel" There is so little of it you almost have to try to set it on fire... I have seen one video of this... definitely staged and yes it burns just like a "Carb Fire" As I said, I weighed all of the benefits and risks and for me I feel comfortable with my system and decision... Having said that, it is important to know what you are buying... it is Propane/Butane and it is very flammable... But it works, works well and is very cheap... just know the risk. BTW This stuff is ILLEGAL to use in the US as a refrigerant in automotive systems BUT Propane is used in commercial refrigeration units world wide including the States... And you can count the number of times one went "Kaboom" on one hand. If you are worried about your car... avoid the Beer Fridge at your local 7/11 Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Very true, it is a trade off... But if you look under your hood there is lots of stuff that goes Kaboom... like Gasoline... And people run cars on Propane, natural gas etc. If you are worried about flammable stuff under your hood... you need to buy a bicycle! Very true! You have to remember, I live in North Dakota. The nearest 7/11 is probably 600 miles away or so. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 So in theory since its heavier than air, if you parked your car in your garage, and had a leak, the propane would settle on the floor? I wonder how damaging 2 pounds of propane would be laying on the floor of your garage with the garage door closed, entering the garage from within the house if there were a spark? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Well you could consider that a simple propane tank used for a grille is about 20 lbs and it lasts a very long time. I'm guessing it could make quite a bang. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 My dad also converted is 82 John Deere 4640 tractor and has yet to have problems. My caprice and silverado were converted 5 years ago at the same time and they have not had any compressor troubles. I've heard of many people doing around here and not having any problems. The only problem they complain about is that it doesn't cool as well. The only reason I wouldn't put R-12 back in an old system is because for one thing, it's probably going to develop another leak soon. Secondly you can buy the same size can of R-134 for $8 when a can of R-12 is $40. There is also another alternative to R-12, however. It's called Freeze-12. Not sure if you can still get it, but my dad has a tank the size of a propane tank full of the stuff. R-134a doesn't cool as well as R-12 in retrofits for a few reasons: 1) Often a lesser amount is installed as "correct", 2) Many times, the R-12 condenser is the old serpetine design and a parallel flow design is required. 3) If the old R-12 mineral oil is not removed, it reduces cooling capacity. 4) If the accumulator is not changed, the dessicant is saturated with R-12 oil which reduces cooling capacity. Freeze-12 is mostly R-134a with a portion of R-142b. The R-142b is the component that circulates the mineral oil. Any leak will disturb the refrigerant balance and poor/inadequate oil circulation and compressor damage may result. Personally, if I were going to retrofit a car, before I'd use Freeze-12, I'd just properly convert it to R-134a and be done with it. I used Autofrost (R-406a which is a blend of R-22 and two other refrigerants to mimic the properties of R-12) in my '86 Park Avenue for a few years without any problems. The only disadvantage with any refrigerant other than R-12 or R-134a is that most A/C shops won't touch the system. Those Walmart conversion kits is they make no mention of evacuating the system with a vacuum pump prior to charging. Not evacuating will leave air and moisture in the system which will reduce cooling capacity and corrode the system from the inside out. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Texas Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 RE: Post #10 by KHE........ I agree with everything you indicated except for: "Installing a lesser amount of R-134a than what is specified for R-12 is also incorrect - the lesser amount will constantly set the low refrigerant code and disable the compressor. The proper charge of R-134a is the same amount that was specified for R-12. In other words, if the system was spec'd for 2.0 lbs. of R-12, then the correct charge of R-134a is 2.0 lbs. This was confirmed by an HVAC engineer at GM Powertrain and relayed by the guru that used to frequent this board" This info is not the recommended procedure from any professional HVAC person. 85% is the recommended charge of R134A to an R12 system and then proceed from that threshold. Doing otherwise is an unsafe procedure. I've done a lot of systems and never has a low-refrigerant code been set, nor has the compressor been disabled by the low-pressure switch once the pressures are correct. GM Reman 4.1 engine Dec '08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrak Posted March 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 R-12 isn't that hard to get here in AZ, I just paid $168 to have it recharged and now it works great they did put tracer dye in so next time I go in or I guess I could check it also find where the leak is and fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 So in theory since its heavier than air, if you parked your car in your garage, and had a leak, the propane would settle on the floor? I wonder how damaging 2 pounds of propane would be laying on the floor of your garage with the garage door closed, entering the garage from within the house if there were a spark? Very true, except because propane is such a better refrigerant you only need 14oz to charge a 2 pound system... (its something like that, I'm going from memory) and yes even 14 oz of propane will make a "big" puddle but if you have slow leak it will take months to leak out a fraction of a oz... plus this stuff smells like... propane... Unless you have a really bad cold you are going to notice. Yes it is flammable, but there is a reason that in almost 15 years of use there has only been one documented fire... and that one looked more like insurance fraud to me then an accident. The real danger with this product is what happens in an crash. In this case you could get a sudden release of all 14oz (or so) of propane all at once. While the condenser isn't completely "unprotected" it is in the leading part of the car and it is likely to be punctured in a serious front end accident. This part freaked me out... So I just won't crash Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SevilleSLS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 It seems when a person doesnt' want something to happen...that's when it happens. -Dusty- - 02 Seville STS, white diamond - 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top - 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top - 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black - 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey - 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 You need to consider all of the power of positive thinking... If you think you are a safe driver it will.... Happen! Saw it last night on Larry King... It must be true Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.