can we blame them???

[kensala313]

but you could we blame toyota??? toyota cannot control japan's weak yen, and their executives are just as smart as the U.S.'s, so of course they are going to be able to conduct business in a more profitable and consumer friendly way. toyota is the underdog and coming up fast, GM is the hunted and is tired and slow, i dont see GM staying at the top, Toyota has too much going for them, and they make a long lasting quality product, at a cheaper price.

[BodybyFisher]

Alrighty then...

I used to think that CONGRESS was suppose to LEVEL the playing field so that imports did not DUMP their cheaper products on the US market and KILL US products... Not the case anymore when you have BUSH (who I voted for) saying GM should make a better car on national TV...

Manufacturing won WW2... We are going to be in trouble one day...as a result of our limp wristed CONGRESS

[JohnnyG]

Sorry Body, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Not that I want to bring up politics, but I don't think it is Congress's job to level anything; especially something that they don't understand. They tried that in 1975 with gasoline prices and it got them exactly nowhere!

I rode in my sister's Avalon the other day..........Guess what, it has almost everything my STS has, and NO WIND NOISE over 50 mph! That spells quality and engineering to me, no matter what language you are speaking. The fact that it sold new in 2006 for thousands less than my '99 is just icing on the cake.

If GM wants to be the world leader in auto sales, then it has to make a product that will compete and satisfy customers in THEIR perception of quality, not some engineer's. To me that is still where GM misses the mark totally....they don't listen to customers. Not in the initial product quality and CERTAINLY not in service. Some of you may remember the post here when I took delivery of my 2004 Chevy Silverado. The tether on the gas cap was too short to reach the retaining hook on the filler door. Yes, it was a little thing, but if I'd have just forked over $27,000 for the thing, guess where I'd be looking NEXT time? Well, the next time is NOW.

[Breeza_Brown]

this is gonna cause more jobs to be sent overseas and more factory automation. Soon there will only be robot maint techs and engineers at GM factories. SO SAD

[abad95]

Alrighty then...

I used to think that CONGRESS was suppose to LEVEL the playing field so that imports did not DUMP their cheaper products on the US market and KILL US products... Not the case anymore when you have BUSH (who I voted for) saying GM should make a better car on national TV...

Manufacturing won WW2... We are going to be in trouble one day...as a result of our limp wristed CONGRESS

I totally agree with you.

I also voted for Bush.

Florin

[Cadillac Jim]

I have two friends with Avalons. They are very nice inside, ride well, etc. and the interior is quite nice on some of them, comparable to my ETC. but I haven't driven either of them. I have no desire to give up 300 hp or the handling of the Touring package, etc. The Avalon is a very nice car and I would recommend one to anybody who doesn't care about leather-wrapped steering, driver lateral support, etc., which is most people. But my next car will be a world class sedan, performance wise, like my 1997 ETC.

Look at JasonA's posts on his recent acquisition of a 2001 STS, then show me a link to a similar post about an Avalon. In fact, show me an active enthusiast board about Avalons, with many active participants driving well-loved cars up to fifteen years old.

[JasonA]

Frankly, I think the press is making too much of Toyota's move to #1 in the world. I mean c'mon...GM has been number 1 since when...forever? SOMEBODY has to be #1. And it's not like some huge take-over. Toyota's been there for a while and they just might squeak by this year.

MY question to the rest of them is...if Toyota is so much better, as we're all force-fed to believe, then why has it taken them so long?

[mikeheid]

I would have to agree.I think toyota does make some very quality autos.

But i'm an american and i will continue to buy american made cars.

Besides i love my recently purchase 96 seville sts.

Mike

[BodybyFisher]

I would have to agree.I think toyota does make some very quality autos.

But i'm an american and i will continue to buy american made cars.

Besides i love my recently purchase 96 seville sts.

Mike

And I want you to think about the fact that you LOVE a ten year old car as I do! Go buy a ten year old Toyota and tell me how excited you are about it..

[stsjoe]

That's part of the problem Mike, they need us to buy NEW cars not used. If I had the money I'd buy a new Caddy but that day is aways off

[Spurlee]

All are good coments.

In my view, if you look at cars as transportation appliances then Toyota 2-box designs are great. Most who buy them are not auto enthusiasts, just folks that need a ride from place to place. It's like me with electronics - it's just stuff I need but I'm not really interested in any of it. All I want is reliability and cheap cost and I don't really care who makes it or who is #1 or where it's made - Dell or Toshiba, Motorola or Samsung, Bluetooth or Blackjack, Cingular or Verizon it's all just noise to me. I don't need a $6,000 computer or a $10,000 H-D TV just as some people don't need a $60,000 car. Interest and priorities, you see.

If you are an auto enthusiast, though, most of the econo-box stuff is boring and plain gray background noise. (Are there Avalon web sites?) There are a certainly a few interesting models from Japan but offerings from BMW, Audi, M-B, Jaguar, Cadillac, etc. are typically much more engaging to enthusiasts.

It's a fluid world, various forms of hybrid technology will evolve to meet different market demands in different areas. Places without infrastructure might go direct to hydrogen, places with legacy infrastructure might go with dual-fuel systems. Is one company going to make the majority of all types - probably not. But for now, what most people worldwide (and here in the US, too) want and need are appliance type vehicles, that will drive the market. Hence the rise of companies concentrating on that sector...

Just my 2 cents...

[BodybyFisher]

Good Point.... enthusiasts don't drive the market for the most part. I think this is why Cadillac has introduced a V6 and V8.... to compete with the cheap fuel efficient stuff...

Oh the word I was thinking of before was TARIFFS, congress use to put tariffs on imports to level the playing field...

[stsjoe]

Mike, now they just build them here and get around the tariff, but the majority of parts are coming in without a tariff. No tariff on the parts just a assembled vehicle, nice work around

[kdaddy]

OK, so many of you have brought up great points regarding this issue. That being said I think a multi-dimensional approach would be best to solve this issue. Here it is:

Government - Tariffs required on ALL import vehicles.

- Govt. subsidies to US automakers like they have in Korea

Labor - Unions must become "less" focused on getting Democrats elected and "more" focused truly on the product.

GM - Must continue to invest heavily into R&D with the focus on technology, quality, and marketing.

Consumers - Consumers need to recognize they are hanging themselves in the long run. If we lose our auto sector the ripple effect will be catastrophic on our economy. In my opinion I think their is a hate America strain running through many of our own people. This strain effects everything in their lives including what they purchase (autos).

[abad95]

OK, so many of you have brought up great points regarding this issue. That being said I think a multi-dimensional approach would be best to solve this issue. Here it is:

Government - Tariffs required on ALL import vehicles.

- Govt. subsidies to US automakers like they have in Korea

Labor - Unions must become "less" focused on getting Democrats elected and "more" focused truly on the product.

GM - Must continue to invest heavily into R&D with the focus on technology, quality, and marketing.

Consumers - Consumers need to recognize they are hanging themselves in the long run. If we lose our auto sector the ripple effect will be catastrophic on our economy. In my opinion I think their is a hate America strain running through many of our own people. This strain effects everything in their lives including what they purchase (autos).

I totally agree with you KDADDY

Florin

[PAUL T]

I fail to see how the consumer hangs themselves. Take a look at a GM or a Ford, I doubt very seriously that all the components are made in the US. My 88 F150 has a Mazda Transmission. GM and Ford have moved to Mexico and overseas to build their parts cheaper. So what is the differance. I live relatively close to the Toyota plant here in West Virginia. They have become a vital part of our states economy investing billions in the area. Their salaries and benefits are top notch in a state that the biggest employer is Walmart. Half the cars Toyota sells here are made in the U.S. now. NKG spark plugs are made here and KS of West Virginia makes wireing harnesses here. Both are Japanese owned companies brought here by our Senator Jay Rockefeller. West Virginia even has an office in Japan to draw business here.

[kensala313]

on the note that there are no toyota avalon web sites, or toyota enthusists web sites is because the automoblie is not part of japan's heritige. for americans, detroit is where it all started, detroit is something we can have pride in and claim as part of our heritage. the automobile for japan is simply an economy boosting export, not a hobby, passion, or way of life, like big block chevy's are for americans. also too, Japan and toyota have never changed the face of the aoutomoblie industry by introducing new trends in the auto. (like the muscle car era, or the SUV craze, or luxury sedans etc.) toyota has only had to keep up with U.S. trends and styles, and they have done well. when toyota and japan get to the top, could they start a new trend or era in the auto industry? (hybrid, hydrogen engine, solar power etc.) it will be intersting to see what they come up with.

[JasonA]

All I want is reliability and cheap cost and I don't really care who makes it or who is #1 or where it's made - Dell or Toshiba, Motorola or Samsung, Bluetooth or Blackjack, Cingular or Verizon it's all just noise to me. I don't need a $6,000 computer or a $10,000 H-D TV just as some people don't need a $60,000 car. Interest and priorities, you see.

That's a great comment.

[JohnnyG]

I have two friends with Avalons. They are very nice inside, ride well, etc. and the interior is quite nice on some of them, comparable to my ETC. but I haven't driven either of them. I have no desire to give up 300 hp or the handling of the Touring package, etc. The Avalon is a very nice car and I would recommend one to anybody who doesn't care about leather-wrapped steering, driver lateral support, etc., which is most people. But my next car will be a world class sedan, performance wise, like my 1997 ETC.

Look at JasonA's posts on his recent acquisition of a 2001 STS, then show me a link to a similar post about an Avalon. In fact, show me an active enthusiast board about Avalons, with many active participants driving well-loved cars up to fifteen years old.

Jim, you missed my point. I OWN a Cadillac, I like my Caddy, and will probably buy another when the time comes. I also congratulated Jason on his new car, and I'm sure he is going to be happy with it for a long time.

GM cannot become #1 by selling Caddys alone. Hence the reference to the Silverado. I was making the point that all of the fantastic engineering that went into the Caddy is forgotten when somebody gets into a car that costs $20,000 less, and FEELS like it's better made....WHETHER IT IS OR NOT.

I'm not quite ready to agree with KDADDY either, more in agreement with PAULT. we are moving to a world economy, and buying "foreign" cars isn't going to change a thing.

We've all heard this before, and I'm seeing it on TV quite a bit lately. This isn't even about car quality....it's about price and affordability. How much of the price of a new GM/FORD/CHRYSLER car goes to pay for union negotiated retirement benefits? Something like $3000.00 each if I remember correctly. This is about getting rid of unions, and the waste that they impose on the US economy. Plain and simple.

[BodybyFisher]

toyota has only had to keep up with U.S. trends and styles, and they have done well.

They have done WHAT well? Whose opinion is that? The point of the following is to point out that its the perception that Toyota makes a better car but to me that is not true. Visit some of these issues that were done so "well" and that you won't hear from the liberal press:

Is Toyota's Quality Slipping?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006...ta_quality.html

Plagued by engine and transmission problems

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_tacoma.html

Toyota Tacoma Engine Problems

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/...oma_engine.html

Toyota Tacoma Transmission

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/...coma_trans.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/..._interlock.html

Since you are in San Francisco you will especially like this statement:

This was on January 16,2004. Yesterday, the service manager called me to inform me that they were unable to fix the truck due to the fact this is an inherent trait of all 4-door Tacoma's from 2001 on, and that this problem would only be a problem if "I lived in San Francisco". I assume that this means that Tacomas are not sold in San Francisco since it would be dangerous to own one there! Very FUNNY.....

Misc. Problems

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/...acoma_misc.html

Facing Massive Recalls

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006...calls_reax.html

Toyota Recalls Near 800,000 for July

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006...ta_recalls.html

Engine Problems

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Here is the wonderful Avalon

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_avalon.html

Toyota Tundra

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_tundra.html

Toyota Recalls 533,000 Trucks for Failed Ball Joints

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007...all_joints.html

NHTSA Probes 600,000 Toyota Trucks and Vans

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/2...ota_trucks.html

Toyota Tundra - Brakes

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/...dra_brakes.html

Toyota Will Cover Sludge Problems

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/toyota_sludge.html

Lexus

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html

[Bruce Nunnally]

Toyota makes cars and trucks. They concentrate very very hard on constant improvement. No, harder than that. Harder in the sense that their approach, The Toyota Way, takes constant focus to follow, and perhaps is never mastered. They are not perfect; they tend to be very conservative in their planning. They have benefitted from closed markets at home, inexpensive labor, and beneficial pricing.

I don't hate Toyota, or love Toyota. I have driven the Lexus LS series, but I did not find it to be better than a Deville in back to back tests, although it costs more. I have concluded tht one can enjoy driving GM products and Cadillacs without hoping ToyoLexus has issues, or Lincoln, or whoever.

I am thrilled that GM sells a ton of cars, as that allows and fuels development costs for new cars, and provides a good number of jobs besides. I still wish the current DTS had the new 6speed automatic, that Cadillac offerred a hybrid CTS convertible, and that the 08 CTS was coming in the spring instead of the fall. But I am heartened by my experience with my last two new CTS purchases, in that neither needed to be back at the Dealer, both have been excellent cars, and the next model promises to be better.

[kensala313]

thats my opinion body by fisher. and i mean that toyota has kept up with american auto makers and american auto trends, perhaps you didnt read the entire passage. and i never once said that toyota makes a better car than any american maker. the toyota sequioa keeps up with any american SUV, and tows a large boat very well. ive driven a tundra towing an enclosed trailer with 2 dune buggies and a quad in the back up a mountain pass and it was a champ. ive also driven a V6 camary up a mountain pass and accelerated at 80 miles an hour, going up hill. every auto maker has engineering flaws, even cadillac. i remeber when my 97 STS got recalled for the fuel line rail, it was squirting gas out on top of the engine like crazy. what about when ford recalled 13,000,000 explorers in 1999?? is that "well" enginering??? check this link to see cadillac's recalls:

http://www.automallusa.net/01/cadillac/recalls.html

i think we need to set our biased american opinions to the side here and look at the facts.

[Cadillac Jim]

I hear JohnnyG and he has a very good point. Cadillac isn't GM's problem. Cadillac is doing quite well. But, as a Car & Driver editorial said a couple of years ago, they must have a world class line from Chevrolet or the corporation is in trouble, long-term.

The recent WSJ article said that the US carmakers need to change the way that they make cars: deciding a year or more in advance what the factories will make and using incentives and marketing in lieu of market agility to move the cars. I thought that it was just GM that has the problem of telling the consumer what he wants, but the WSJ example was a big Dodge truck with a V6, built in anticipation of high gas prices and a shift away from V8's. That has happened, but not in 5,000 pound trucks.

Chevrolet has some fine cars now, and the marketing on TV, at least, has improved. They need to look at the culture at the Chevrolet showrooms, though. The last six times I tried to buy a new Chevrolet I gave up and bought two Fords, three Pontiacs, and a Cadillac. When someone comes into a showroom and wants to see some option sheets and prices, but gives up in frustration, anger, or disgust and buys another make, then, Detroit, we have a problem.

[kdaddy]

To Paul T,

You are only partly right. First of all it DOES matter that you purchase an American car because the dollars go back into AMERICA regardless of where THE PARTS are made. Only a portion of our dollars go to the foriegn companies that produce individual parts for our cars. If you buy a Toyota, Honda, and soon the Chery (China) all our dollars FLOW into those countries and THEY hang on to our currency. Right now the world is awash in US dollars because of this. Although having overseas parts produced is not the best in terms of keeping jobs it is the most efficient. As long as the end product though is completed in the U.S. the sales go back to the American company. I stand by the four factors I stated earlier in the post.

Kdaddy

P.S. God help us all next year when China dumps thier vehicles on our shores in 08.

[BodybyFisher]

i think we need to set our biased american opinions to the side here and look at the facts.

Explorer should have never been built with the solid rear suspension, Ford has major problems considering they knew the car was unstable but developed it and sold it anyway. But we are not talking about Ford here are we? They have already been passed by Toyota haven't they? So what is the point of that... Nothing in your post impresses me, fuel rail? Oh that's a biggie, mine was replaced free in one hour. The problem was most likely caused the use of ethanol that it wasn't designed for, its not likely that the problem was intentional or that the material used in the original fuel rail wasnt extensively tested.

But after you make the statement below you imply that I have a biased American opinion?:

when toyota and japan get to the top, could they start a new trend or era in the auto industry? (hybrid, hydrogen engine, solar power etc.) it will be intersting to see what they come up with

You make that obviously biased statement as if GM is not developing alternative power powerplants! What does getting to the top have to do with starting a trend in the auto industry? And you say it will be interesting to see what they come up with! What "THEY come up with" sounds anti-American to me. Why won't it be interesting to see what GM and BMW come up with? I guess with your anti-American bias missed this article FOUR years ago!:

USA: April 10, 2003

DETROIT - General Motors Corp. (GM.N) and BMW AG (BMWG.DE) have agreed to work jointly on developing refueling devices for liquid hydrogen vehicles, which could replace gasoline or diesel-burning cars and trucks in the future, a GM official said

I guess you missed that or its possible there is media blackout in SF regarding positive things GM and US corporations do given SF's hate of the US.

I don't want this to appear to be a personal attack because its not, its facts, but the city you are located in is the most liberal in the country and its possible your bias comes from that. Some of the things that come out of SF are shocking including refusing a WW2 destroyer exhibit, Pelosi, barring ROTC, the 9th circus court and just last night I heard about this indoctrination anti-war anti-bush anti-corporation book being used in SF schools that to me IS treason:

2/16/07 -- School District Fight - An anti-war comic book in the classroom ignites a firestorm in San Francisco please watch this video:

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.htm...p;&&new

I have heard that SF is a beautiful city and always wanted to visit, but after the garbage I hear coming out of it, I'd visit Bayonne, NJ first. Try to get your news from a source outside of your city, you might be surprised to find out what's going on out here ..