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Be Afraid, very Afraid


kdaddy

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As you may have heard GM is not laying down(like Ford) when it comes to be overtaken by Toyota. The link below claims that Toyota is fearing a backlash from the potential of becoming #1.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...ESS01/702130401

I only hope that GM fights hard and that people like you and I continue to spread the word about such great cars like Cadillac and other GM vehicles.

Kdaddy

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I hope GM can maintain as top automaker. I own 4 GM's and have always steered people to buy American. Remember the old saying. "Whats good for GM is good for the country" or something like that. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Same with me. I am all for GM. The have the mishaps at times, but who doesn't? I say that GM has less mishaps than anyone else. I think GM needs to advertise a little more. I rarely see any GM commericals around. I know that word of mouth is the best way to advertise, but that's not going to get you all the customers.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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yes GM builds some good vehicles, ford has a few nice ones and the chrysler are always setting trends. Trur the press hates anything from the big 3.

Yet I often wonder if their dealer's are not a big part of the problem anyone agree ??

I always hear stories of Sa's minimum RO paid, charges for diagnostic, petty nickle and diming.

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yes GM builds some good vehicles, ford has a few nice ones and the chrysler are always setting trends. Trur the press hates anything from the big 3.

Yet I often wonder if their dealer's are not a big part of the problem anyone agree ??

I always hear stories of Sa's minimum RO paid, charges for diagnostic, petty nickle and diming.

Yeah, I agree with that. A lot of the dealers are just plain old crooks.

-Dusty-

- 02 Seville STS, white diamond

- 93 Sixty Special, Tan with vinyl top

- 79 Coupe DeVille, Tan with Tan top

- 06 GMC Sierra Z71, Black

- 92 Silverado C1500, black and grey

- 83 Chevy K10 Silverado, Black and Grey

b80385550.jpg

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Yet I often wonder if their dealer's are not a big part of the problem anyone agree ??

I always hear stories of Sa's minimum RO paid, charges for diagnostic, petty nickle and diming.

Yeah, I agree with that. A lot of the dealers are just plain old crooks.

Dealership fraud likely reasults in a quarterly multi-million dollar loss for GM.

How many times have we come across this scenario: (Service Advisor) "Yep, headgaskets are blown, needs a new Engine, $7000, will that be cash,check,charge on trade in on a new Cadillac?

Or what about the time I was at the gas station and struck up a conversation with the guy owned a 96 Deville. I asked him if he had any problems with it, he responded "It's had a bad knock for a while now, dealership said it needs a new Engine (!!!!) going to be trading it in soon..) I asked him "well when does it knock" his response "um...only when it's....only when it’s… cold” (as if a light went on inside his head that I somehow knew why the knock was occurring)

I laughed and explained to him that cold carbon was likely to blame for the knock (and why the carbon built up in the first place..(babying it around town). Then I told him how to take care of the knock and where to go if he had any questions.

How many people, in the same position as this guy, have replaced their Engines due to fraudulent dealerships! Or what about replaced Tranny’s due to failed solenoids?

Just think about the following scenario: You don’t know a whole lot about cars, your whole life you’ve let someone else work on your and have trusted every word they say. Now you buy a brand-spankin new 95’ Eldorado, only to have it start knocking just after the warranty expired, at about 57,000 miles. You take it to the dealership and they tell you your screwed and need to spend $7000 on a new engine.

The majority of these people will never buy a GM product again, and more importantly they will go out of there way to bad-mouth GM ,due to there miserable and costly experience. The worst part!! It was all a LIE!!!

This happens day-in and day-out all across the country, dealerships are destroying GM, I mean look at the timesert issues! …One of the tech’s on the CO board even mentioned that GM had to rescind a service bulletin due to the flood of (fraudulent) Engine replacements claims that came in it’s wake…THIS HURTS THE CONSUMERS PERCEPTION OF QUALITY!

I would be really, really interested to see what kind of control Toyota has over it’s dealerships….There was a thread in the “Write Cadillac a Letter” forum on CO a while ago…Long story short: Someone had an issue with a dealership, and GM responded by saying “GM has no control over the procedures/practices of it’s dealerships..we are sorry for your situation but can do nothing to help”… IMO this is unacceptable, either you play by the rules or you can’t sell the product!! For example McDonald’s reserves the right (or used to) to yank any franchiee’s operating rights at the drop of a dime: they can’t afford to have some rouge franchisee ruin their reputation…GM should operate in the same manner!

A.J.

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Competition is good in business that is why our cars are not falling apart at 100,000 miles. It also keeps the prices in check. I say it is good for Toyota to take over the top for a while. That will make GM, Ford, and Chyrsler work that much harder to get back on top. The consumer should benefit. It is just like when hundai offered 10 years 100,000 miles warranty. Gm stepped up and raised their warranty and others followed suit. If you make a quality vehicle then you ought to stand by it.

I work in the engineering field and I see more and more projects where everybody is in a rush to get a project done that they just halfway engineer it. Then obvious problems arise and they spend more money in the long run because they did not take the time to engineer it out from the beginning. Cars are getting more and more complicated therefore time should be taken to build a quality product.

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  • 1 month later...

As you may have heard GM is not laying down(like Ford) when it comes to be overtaken by Toyota. The link below claims that Toyota is fearing a backlash from the potential of becoming #1.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...ESS01/702130401

I only hope that GM fights hard and that people like you and I continue to spread the word about such great cars like Cadillac and other GM vehicles.

Kdaddy

I love Cadillacs and Chevy pickup trucks. But I have forgone that buy American all all cost stuff many years ago. It's a free market society and the company's that offer the best products will always come out on top. Most of the Japanese cars are assembled here by American workers.True profits go back to Japan but jobs and paychecks stay here. When I met my wife she had a Nissan Maxima and after years of driving it and see how reliable it was I became a big fan of Nissan and just purchased a 06 Maxima with 11k miles on it last week. The fit and finish is top notch and that 3.5 motor has won awards 9 years in a row. I love my 01 STS and that's the car I drive everyday but if Toyota over takes GM so be it. It's the auto workers unions that refuse to give concessions when things are getting tough that will bring GM down.

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Blaming the unions is overly simplistic, Yes there are legacy costs that Americian manufactures must contend with BUT did the CEO/CFO et al fully fund the the programs OR did they afford them selves EXORBIDENT compensation, hard to tell a "team mate" to cut cost when your salarie extend into the 10 of millions of dollars...

I wonder how the compensation for the leaders of Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc compare to their "US" counterparts.....

Anyway why not out source the executive end of the picture if it such a GREAT idea....

MUCH BLAME to go around. But the Union's are not solely responsible.

No business has a union that does not desirve it.

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Blaming the unions is overly simplistic, Yes there are legacy costs that Americian manufactures must contend with BUT did the CEO/CFO et al fully fund the the programs OR did they afford them selves EXORBIDENT compensation, hard to tell a "team mate" to cut cost when your salarie extend into the 10 of millions of dollars...

I wonder how the compensation for the leaders of Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc compare to their "US" counterparts.....

Anyway why not out source the executive end of the picture if it such a GREAT idea....

MUCH BLAME to go around. But the Union's are not solely responsible.

No business has a union that does not desirve it.

I understand your point and I realize that there are many reasons that our American companies are in dire straits. As far as multi million dollar CEO pay goes It will take real executive talent to resurrect these companies and that kind of talent doesn't come cheap. When the unions require the man sweeping the floor to make 30 plus dollars and hour, hey they have to let these auto companies outsource the non skilled jobs it would help pay for their massive health care and pension obligations. As far as the person that says Toyota will never over take GM what papers and news stations are you watching they will over take GM and overall sales by the end of this year. People ain't to keen on buying 45 thousand dollar SUV with gas prices in the 3 dollar range.

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Great topic,

I have had many American cars over my 70 years on this planet. Unfortunately all of them gave me very serious problems costing many hundreds of dollars to fix. In 1975 I bought a Honda Civic from that "upstart" company. That car lasted me 13 years and I spent only $2,000 over that time keeping it running, with no major problems. The reliability and fit and finish was way above what I saw in all the American cars I've owned.

In 1990, I decided to "GO American" again. I bought a 1990 Merc. Sable GS. It looked good in the showroom, and performed well for the first 25,000 miles - two years of driving. At 28,000 miles little things at first started to go wrong. I won't bore you with the details, but as the next year came up I started seeing very serious problems happen costing me hundreds of dollars. AFter 3 years of owning the car I saw my check account drop $3,000 overall. At 5 years those costs rose to $6,000. (I keep my cars a long time, as you see with my Civic). I still own that old Merc, now with 121,000 miles on it. I've had to resort to fixing things myself, and I keep it well oiled. I've had it now for 17 years and the total cost is now over $8,000 to keep it fixed. Not bad if you amortize it over 17 years. But most of that repair cost happend during the first 3 years of ownership.

In 2000 I purchased a 2000 Cadillac DeVille with 28,000 miles on it, thinking it's a Cadillac and it should be the top of the line for GM. It was still under warranty, thank heaven. Cause at 32,000 miles, the dealer had to replace the engine. After the warranty went out, I started having many serious problems with it - now 5 years later, and $6,000 poorer, this Cadillac may be the death of me yet, if I don't give in to impulse and sell it. It has poor fit and finish for a Cad, yet it has, to me, a great look about it, being a metallic burgendy color.

I'm still keeping the car so I can amortize its cost like I've had to do with the other Ameriacan cars. That's the only way I can beat the game of reliability.

But my nex car, may not be American unless they improve the reliability like I've come to appreciate in the Toyotas and Hondas - Look at the latest Consumer Report to see.

If GM gets it right, and produces better fit and finish cars with high reliability, I think they will stay on top of the heap.

Reliability is a big issue with all American cars but it is improving, as seen by that same Recent Consumer Report.

So far Honda and Toyota has a big lead. If they, too, get cocky, they'll drop like a stone in sales also.

Tom

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Great topic,

I have had many American cars over my 70 years on this planet. Unfortunately all of them gave me very serious problems costing many hundreds of dollars to fix. In 1975 I bought a Honda Civic from that "upstart" company. That car lasted me 13 years and I spent only $2,000 over that time keeping it running, with no major problems. The reliability and fit and finish was way above what I saw in all the American cars I've owned.

In 1990, I decided to "GO American" again. I bought a 1990 Merc. Sable GS. It looked good in the showroom, and performed well for the first 25,000 miles - two years of driving. At 28,000 miles little things at first started to go wrong. I won't bore you with the details, but as the next year came up I started seeing very serious problems happen costing me hundreds of dollars. AFter 3 years of owning the car I saw my check account drop $3,000 overall. At 5 years those costs rose to $6,000. (I keep my cars a long time, as you see with my Civic). I still own that old Merc, now with 121,000 miles on it. I've had to resort to fixing things myself, and I keep it well oiled. I've had it now for 17 years and the total cost is now over $8,000 to keep it fixed. Not bad if you amortize it over 17 years. But most of that repair cost happend during the first 3 years of ownership.

In 2000 I purchased a 2000 Cadillac DeVille with 28,000 miles on it, thinking it's a Cadillac and it should be the top of the line for GM. It was still under warranty, thank heaven. Cause at 32,000 miles, the dealer had to replace the engine. After the warranty went out, I started having many serious problems with it - now 5 years later, and $6,000 poorer, this Cadillac may be the death of me yet, if I don't give in to impulse and sell it. It has poor fit and finish for a Cad, yet it has, to me, a great look about it, being a metallic burgendy color.

I'm still keeping the car so I can amortize its cost like I've had to do with the other Ameriacan cars. That's the only way I can beat the game of reliability.

But my nex car, may not be American unless they improve the reliability like I've come to appreciate in the Toyotas and Hondas - Look at the latest Consumer Report to see.

If GM gets it right, and produces better fit and finish cars with high reliability, I think they will stay on top of the heap.

Reliability is a big issue with all American cars but it is improving, as seen by that same Recent Consumer Report.

So far Honda and Toyota has a big lead. If they, too, get cocky, they'll drop like a stone in sales also.

Tom

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Great topic,

I have had many American cars over my 70 years on this planet. Unfortunately all of them gave me very serious problems costing many hundreds of dollars to fix. In 1975 I bought a Honda Civic from that "upstart" company. That car lasted me 13 years and I spent only $2,000 over that time keeping it running, with no major problems. The reliability and fit and finish was way above what I saw in all the American cars I've owned.

In 1990, I decided to "GO American" again. I bought a 1990 Merc. Sable GS. It looked good in the showroom, and performed well for the first 25,000 miles - two years of driving. At 28,000 miles little things at first started to go wrong. I won't bore you with the details, but as the next year came up I started seeing very serious problems happen costing me hundreds of dollars. AFter 3 years of owning the car I saw my check account drop $3,000 overall. At 5 years those costs rose to $6,000. (I keep my cars a long time, as you see with my Civic). I still own that old Merc, now with 121,000 miles on it. I've had to resort to fixing things myself, and I keep it well oiled. I've had it now for 17 years and the total cost is now over $8,000 to keep it fixed. Not bad if you amortize it over 17 years. But most of that repair cost happend during the first 3 years of ownership.

In 2000 I purchased a 2000 Cadillac DeVille with 28,000 miles on it, thinking it's a Cadillac and it should be the top of the line for GM. It was still under warranty, thank heaven. Cause at 32,000 miles, the dealer had to replace the engine. After the warranty went out, I started having many serious problems with it - now 5 years later, and $6,000 poorer, this Cadillac may be the death of me yet, if I don't give in to impulse and sell it. It has poor fit and finish for a Cad, yet it has, to me, a great look about it, being a metallic burgendy color.

I'm still keeping the car so I can amortize its cost like I've had to do with the other Ameriacan cars. That's the only way I can beat the game of reliability.

But my nex car, may not be American unless they improve the reliability like I've come to appreciate in the Toyotas and Hondas - Look at the latest Consumer Report to see.

If GM gets it right, and produces better fit and finish cars with high reliability, I think they will stay on top of the heap.

Reliability is a big issue with all American cars but it is improving, as seen by that same Recent Consumer Report.

So far Honda and Toyota has a big lead. If they, too, get cocky, they'll drop like a stone in sales also.

Tom

Hello tom I agree with you although I'm much younger I've had many of the same experiences as far as pouring dollars good after bad into both GM and Ford products. I was a buy American at all cost kind of person when I was younger. But that kind of thinking goes out the window quick after pouring money into fixing vehicles that only had 40 or 50 k on them all the big stuff go's just after the bumper to bumper expires. The foreign companies build quality products that far out last their American counter parts. I give credit where credit is due. I love my STS but a coulple of weeks ago when it came down to to spending 30 plus thousand on a new car me and my wife went right to the Nissan dealer and purchased a Maxima we traded in a 02 Maxima the only expense we put in the 02 was brakes and tires and oil changes thats it in 70,000 miles enough said.

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I think tires, brakes, blower motor, plugs & wires and an antenna cable where the only things I ever replaced in 107K on my '97 Deville. Even less in 125K on my '92. No complaints here.

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I think tires, brakes, blower motor, plugs & wires and an antenna cable where the only things I ever replaced in 107K on my '97 Deville. Even less in 125K on my '92. No complaints here.

That's great, so far on the STS when I purchased it there was 71k on it before I git to 72k I had to replace the crankshaft sensors. I just had to pay a hundred dollar deductible though. I also bought an extended warranty that covers all the big stuff until 100k with maximum 3500 dollar lifetime benefit.

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I know many people who purchased American cars who claim very few problems. But I also know far more who have had serious problems that cost hundreds of dollars for even fixing just one problem.

Unfortunately, those who have had few problems are in the minority. Consumer Reports shows this disparigy very well as I might have mentioned earlier.

Consumer Report, April 2007, shows the Cadillac DeVille to be have very poor reliability from the year 2000 to 2004. (My car is a 2000, wouldn't ya know). After 2004 you see a far better reliability record in all categories. My thinking is that Cadillac finally admitted to a poorly designed car somewhere in 2001 or 2002 and started designing into it better parts, improving workmanship, thus increasing reliability that finally showed up in the 2004 to 2006 model DeVilles.

So, it can be done by American manufactures. I think they can beat the foreign car manufactures at their own game if they focus on the real issues and not blame just the unions and assembly line workers. While they may be part of the problem, all you need do is compare, and I mean seriously compare without emotion, the fit and finish of those Toyotas, Hondas, Lexus, etc. cars to their American competitors and you will see it is the whole design criteria, from what materials get to be used, down to the specs to put them in that has been woefully inadequete all these years, that has cost the American manufactures their market share.

The reason why many car owners do not see serious problems is that they do not keep their cars for more than a few years. I think major problems show up after about 6 years of use doing normal driving. Milage may not be the only factor. Sometimes you can have 100k miles on a car that is only 1 year old ( a salesman's job for instance) and have normal wear and tear issues.

Sales type cars are driven continuously for many hours at a time during each day with few starts and stops and few turns when compared to those cars that have racked up 100k miles over 6 years that will have many starts and stops, more idle time, more turning the wheel etc.

Short local driving with few long distance driving INMO stresses the car far differently than every day long driving does. And if car manufactures do not account for this type driving in their design, they create inferior cars. I think the Japanese, among a couple of European car manufactures have designed in a much better balance of driving stresses.

There are some great looking American cars out there. But just looking good, or driving like a sports car does not translate into high Reliability, and by the way, safty. This is where the American car manufacure needs to improve upon - big time. Cadillacs after 2004 may just have got it right.

But you would think by now that since Cadillac (and this goes for other American car manufactures) must know they built inferior cars from 2000 to 2004 - therefore they would try to do some real PR to win back the many owners who experienced these unnecessarily high repair costs. Would you not think?

But no. After I had had several very serious problems with my car, I got in touch with their Customer Service devision and told them of the problems I was having. And, yes, it was after the warranty. Technically they dont have to do anything. Ethically they should do the right thing.

They wanted to know what I wanted them to do about it. I said I'd like to have you cover the cost of the repair, or meet me half way. It was going to cost me $700 to fix it, and it should never have broke in the first place. They bumped it up to the next level of management and finally came back with an offer. They would offer me $1500 off on the NEXT Cadillac I buy.

I was dumbfounded. In order to buy my next Cadillac, I'd have to sell this one first. Who would meet my price knowing they would have to fix a big problem with the car? I'd have to fix it first in order to get the best price I could, or I'd have to sell it "as is" and loose several thousand dollars. So, their offer of $1500 was a joke. And they knew it. That means they just blew me off with such a weak offer.

My experience with American Car manufacures in this way has been dissapointing. GM is not the only culprit. AS I said, reliability and their ethic in standing behind cars they knew are poorly designed and built would go a long way in winning back the Billions they lost in sales, and reputation.

The fix is easy. Its an Ethics issue. It begins with the HEART of the organization. Simply stated; "We are a profitable organization selling our product to customers we care about who expect the very best from us. We shall not fail them". A win win situation if you ask me.

Now, go beat the pants off those "foreign" guys.

Tom

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FWIW, in my case, the two previously mention Caddys were 8 yrs old. As far as Consumer Reports goes, I thing those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. I am not positive, but I think they get their figures from warranty work on a new car in the first year. So a return for warranty to fix a miss aimed headlight would count. I would be more interested in seeing figures on cars that are 5 yrs. old. Now THAT would tell us something.

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I think: Part of GM issue IS with mass producction...

So big. Too many cars remain from the 80-90's. Mid 80's cars with peeling paint....knocking rods.....etc. Still good cars..just so many remain...sets off negitive perception..

Too many cars.

That being said. There is a life cyle to vehicles. 10 years is a very long time.

GM built so many that it is now a issue..

It's a image issue. Its's easy to find a 1988 Pontiacs. Worn down but still going.....

No 1988 Toyotas to be found...nowhere to be found...think about it.. Hence the 'clean' feel..

We have all seen these GM cars. Beat...barely running, kid, worn, 200k cars. It sets up a negative image issue. Seeing that, "I dont want a GM car..."

"I want to try something new."

Customer impact issues.

Pontiac Azteck was a step in the wrong direction. The issue really started back in 1958...at GM.

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Most of the cars I've owned have been on CR's worst picks list, or whatever garbage they call it. Funny how I have totally different luck with cars from 'everyone one else', supposedly.

I've gotten those CR auto surveys (I subscribe to their website only, and only look at tire information). They're totally open-ended questions. And the surveys are only sent to subscribers, which is already a closed-minded and very slanted group to begin with. "Group think", that's all it is. A survey of perception.

They also hide behind their mantra that they serve only their readers, not advertisers, so they have no bias. Actually, pandering to your readership introduces a HUGE source of potential motive if you ask me.

Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond)

"When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?"

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As far as Consumer Report goes, I don't only look at them, I look at other places.

Having said that, I know that most, if not all, of the reports they get from car owners are legit. And they do get reports that go back 5 years and post them even in this latest 2007 report. Go to a Barns and Noble or other book store and read it.

Tom

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I would like to be able to see CR's detailed reports, to try to understand how many people responded on each vehicle, and what the exact issues they had were. It is disorienting when largely similar vehicles from the same factory parts & assembly lines get widely different ratings.

But more to the point, it might be useful to understand what does goes wrong. GM of course gets tons of dealer / warranty information on any issues that pop up on vehicles, but I think they get so much info that it is hard to segregate the signal from the noise.

I know the engineers have mentioned that many times items returned for failure analysis were working fine; one can also see the same thing in technical bulletins from time to time -- "please STOP replacing X unless you have run diagnostic Y and verified that it is not working". For whatever reason, the Dealer ends up removing/replacing parts that are perfectly fine.

Bruce

2016 Cadillac ATS-V gray/black

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Technically they dont have to do anything. Ethically they should do the right thing.

I hope this doesn't sound to harsh, BUT, we have seen this type of attitude before. So the car is OUT of warranty and YOU want them to repair it BECAUSE THEY ARE NICE GUYS? Really? What is the point of having a warranty then? GM should just fix your car forever? I am sure that will be great for their bottom line and their longevity. What Asian or European car maker repairs cars out of warranty? You might use that as support, like.... Hillary! Hillary LEXUS is repairing cars out of warranty, why doesn't GM do it? That will help your case...

Maybe you can send Hillary Clinton or Harry Reide an email and get them on your side, LIBS love going after and destroying big companies. Look how congress went NUTS over the JET BLUE problems last month... they jumped to attention.... you might have a chance, scream bloody murder.

How DARE them not repair your car OUT OF WARRANTY, what is this world coming to?!? What a laugh.

Then you make this statement:

"Consumer Report, April 2007, shows the Cadillac DeVille to be have very poor reliability from the year 2000 to 2004. (My car is a 2000, wouldn't ya know). After 2004 you see a far better reliability record in all categories. My thinking is that Cadillac finally admitted to a poorly designed car somewhere in 2001 or 2002 and started designing into it better parts, improving workmanship, thus increasing reliability that finally showed up in the 2004 to 2006 model DeVilles"

You think that CADILLAC/GM FINALLY ADMITTED TO A POORLY DESIGNED CAR and you think they snapped their fingers and STARTED building a better car? Personally, I don't think that anything changed, have the cars gotten better yep I am sure they have, but its NOT because they ADMITTED anything, they just worked on Quality Control more relative to the entire company not just Cadillac.. AGAIN, you are basing this on Consumer Reports, what do they say about the 1999 to 2002 Lexus may I ask any sludge issues?

By the way CR is BIASED garbage, I wouldn't wipe my A** with it...

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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As far as I can see it GM has been building crap since the early 80s The 4100 motor in the 80s caddys is all the prove I need bad engines out of the crates comeon now 468 ran good but never ran right unless you got it to work on all 8. But The best luck I had was the 1970s model caddys besides sucking gas and tires the dam things ran forever and were built like a dam caddy not with plastic fenders. The 90s caddys are not bad at all like the early deville and eldos then out came the early northstars leaking oil and blowing head gaskets. Not very good on GMs part for charging lets see my 96 sts almost with title and tax I paid $46,000 bucks. I cant say much on the 2000 models yet to soon to tell But so far so good lets hope. Bottom line GM needs a little wake up call.

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