More Rules for the unruly

[Bruce Nunnally]

I am considering clarifying our rules based on recent discussions/arguments. Please review & Comment:

Special Edit/Delete Rules:

Instances where posts may be deleted or edited immediately include but are not limited to the following:

1) Posts which are disruptive to a topic. If you don't like customizing your Cadillac, and you read a topic about customizing, simply move on to a topic you do like. Don't hijack a topic, don't post random mutterings, and simply put, don't be disruptive to a topic if you don't have anything constructive to add.

2) Posts where one member slanders a person’s reputation or threatens God’s judgment upon another member [We don't have that a lot but as a rule it makes me laugh] or invites another member to leave Caddyinfo.

.

[Cadillac Jim]

I like it. Perhaps the points could be made with better wording. The use policy says that this is likely, but we are trying to address a common problem with most forums and an occasional one here. My hack:

Posts may be moved to a new topic or a different forum such as 19th Hole at the discretion of any Moderator.

Situations in which this might occur are

• Posts that digress completely from the topic of the forum.
• Posts that address a growing sub-thread; the entire sub-thread may be moved to provide inegrity to both threads.
• Apparent splitting of the thread due to fundamentally different approaches to the issue at hand.

Posts may be edited or deleted at the discretion of any Moderator.

Situations in which this might occur include

• Posts that clearly criticze another member or post.
• Posts that take antagonistic or polarizing positions of taste or dicretion.
• Argumentative or inflammatory posts.
• Offensive posts.

[Regis]

Hmmm......well if you feel this board needs more governing then I guess there is nothing else to say. And like the government we already have multiple rules or laws for the same problem(s). Does it help? I feel it leans in the favor of the trouble makers. But then again I keep thinking about the old board and what made it so great. And that board wasn't nearly as fancy as this new one. What made the old board so popular was it's members. Lots of personality and a keen ability to self-regulate and discipline. Members didn't go whining (ugh that makes me sick) to Bruce. It was a different time and different members with a heck of a lot of moxie and knowledge.

I'll say this about the current enrollment. This group has a whole lot of political correctness. So much so that I'm not so sure that it's a good thing nor constructive in the end. The irony is that now I hardly ever see anyone say "Thank You" and "Your Welcome". But I did see a lot of that on the old board. Just a personal observation.

[Cadillac Jim]

I don't see any new rules here, at least not in what I suggested -- which I saw as a re-wording of what Bruce said. The idea is to make clearer what the Terms of Usage mean in satiations in which we sometimes find ourselves. Unless I'm mistaken, what Bruce wants to do is re-write the Terms of Usage in plainer English, not make more rules.

In point of fact, any forum operates under two rules, and only two:

1. Anyone with Moderator privileges may edit, delete, or move any post at any time at his/her sole discretion.
2. Anyone with Moderator privileges may lock out any user at any time at his/her sole discretion.

The point of the written Terms of Usage is a guideline for new members, and something to point to when you are trying to salvage a member, not lock him/her out.

[Bruce Nunnally]

I seldom get reports on poor participation; more often of obvious spam. I do feel that the whole point is that people should be able to post relevant topics about Cadillacs and not have them hijacked OR flamed.

I appreciate that I can moderate as I see fit; the point to my post was to invite discussion to hear what our community prefers. My preference is to miss no opportunity to not moderate.

When the discussion has moved away from Cadillacs and on to members bickering, it forces the issue. Unfortunately, muted moderation is what appears to bring on vigilante confrontations between poor behavers and established members in some cases. My draft/question [rewritten well by Jim] is do we really want to see more pruning, or just leave the members to argue it out?

[Regis]

Jim,

Don't spin your tires needlessly. My post wasn't directed at you. It was merely the notion of the topic. Which if you want to get technical, it was directed at Bruce. But Bruce has big shoulders and is the sort to mill and sort before posting a reaction.

Bruce,

Obviously you already know my answer. And this is for Jim's benefit as well when I say this. Having rules in a true democracy is one thing but this site is your site and in reality no amount of rules are going to take away the fact that in this monarchy or dictatorship (but you're a nice dictator LOL) your word is the final word. Rules or no rules. There isn't a real checks and balance here. So in essence the rules that some might desire will only be an illusion or a pretty facade to something that never existed in the first place. But then there are those that don't know the difference. Thanks for listening.

[BodybyFisher]

Rules, exactly Rules. This is VERY VERY simple. What is the topic the main board? Come on now people, What is the topic? An idiot knows that the topic is:

Cadillac Discussion: STS, CTS, SRX, DTS, XLR, Allante, Catera, Deville, Escalade, Eldorado, ETC, Fleetwood, Seville, V-Series and Other Models

PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Bruce even created a place where we could go and discuss anything that did not relate to Cadillac Discussion, the 19th Hole. The 19th hole's topic is:

A quiet, elegant Clubhouse with nice fireplace and easy chairs, where you can chat about other things besides Cadillacs

AGAIN, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

The importance of staying on topic was pointed out to the individual by me over and over and he was asked to stay on topic. There are NO excuses for the individual not adhering to topics other than the individual is a trouble maker that likes going against authority and he continues to post off topic stories that have nothing to do with the thread. Furthermore the individual has a history of trouble on other boards.

This has nothing to do with FREE SPEECH or an INDIVIDUAL's RIGHTS, it has to do with FOLLOWING THE EXISTING RULES. If you need me to go back and DETAIL how many times I alone asked this individual to FOLLOW the RULES I will. Regis brings up the old board, yes it was nice when we self regulated ourselves and these types of problems didn't exist.

The reason I end up in the middle of this is because NO one else steps up to the plate and by that I do not mean BRUCE, I mean other members, I have NEVER seen any other member besides me try to resolve this OBVIOUS irritating problem. As a matter of fact yesterdays mêlée began because a member PM'd me and complained to me about the individuals OFF TOPIC posting. It was quite frankly was becoming a distraction and the individual OBVIOUSLY does NOT care to FOLLOW THE RULES. Personally I think the individual is trying to create these problems and has been trying to pick fights on the board. I think it is by design. I hear complaints from members CONSTANTLY about this irritating individual. But still no one stepped up.

MORE RULES? we already have RULES that are NOT being followed!!! I am all for the NEXT time unrelated junk shows up that it gets wiped off the thread and the individual is put on notice. After a certain number of notices their account is suspended. That is FAR more lenient than what happened to this individual on the other board when they publically banned him. People today do not understand that RULES are to be adhered to and the only way to get their attention is to inflict some sort of penalty.

All I know is this, I am a firm believer in the adage, that a bad apple spoils the bunch. We have a good thing here and we are allowing it to be tainted by insipid distractions. As a result I for one do not enjoy coming here as much as I used to. If you look we are losing participation from many of the old timers. Things change I know, but they change less when rules are enforced. The reason I step up is because I don't want Bruce to have the burden of being a traffic cop or referee as it is time consuming. Plus I am here quite a bit, so its natural. In the past we as a group stepped up, ONE person can not do it without support from the group.

[Cadillac Jim]

We all play roles in dealing with problem threads and posters. Most often, BBF does come forward with plain speaking about sticking to the topic and staying with the rules. Others sometimes do this, of course. Bruce most often will delete SPAM, point to the Terms of Usage, edit *smurf* to read *smurf*, etc. I try to set examples when I am involved with a thread by ignoring everything except what the poster needs and how or why I am trying to help. All of us help in our own way.

Sometimes this isn't enough. We recently had a lot of criticism by several regulars about something a newbie needed help in doing: lowering a car. The newbie was oversensitive about remarks that this wasn't a good thing to do for whatever reason. Myself, I think a 1981 Deville with tires that don't reach the ground because the frame rails are resting on the pavement would be a nice idea if someone wants to have a car like that. Hey, I want a MOV file, with sound, of them trying to drive the car if someone sets up a car like that. The problem is that we had a lot more bickering about nothing than about helping the newbie on that thread. That's amazing on this board.

The good side is that we all learned something from that thread. I think Bruce wants to simplify the wording of part of the Terms of Usage. The real purpose of the Terms of Usage is to guide or warn users about what can get their posts edited or deleted, or get them banned -- so that they become constructive members and the Moderator doesn't have to take action.

Let me address another point -- this forum isn't public property. Those of us who support this forum through nominal donations don't get property rights for doing so, we get good will and perhaps a couple of extra permissions granted by the Moderator. This forum is the property of the Moderator, who pays for it and its infrastructure -- web hosting, software, and maintenance -- and who spends endless hours monitoring it when he could be out enjoying his CTS. We are all guests. We are here for the fellowship and the satisfaction of solving problems and for other positive reasons. I don't have enough problems of my own so I look for satisfaction in solving real-world problems of others. The smooth functioning of this forum makes that possible without significant distraction. I think this is true of just about everyone on the forum except newbies that are here for help and haven't gotten around to helping other yet. Bruce is trying to do an even better job of fostering that environment.

[JimD]

We have seen many different types of individuals come and go; some are looking for guidance with their cars and others are really seeking a forum of a different sort (psychological for one).

Sometimes I can help with the car part.

But I am not qualified to help with the other, so I ignore both the situation and the writer. And they usually go away after a short period of being denied a responsive audience. Rules or no rules.

[The Fred]

The reason I end up in the middle of this is because NO one else steps up to the plate and by that I do not mean BRUCE, I mean other members, I have NEVER seen any other member besides me try to resolve this OBVIOUS irritating problem. As a matter of fact yesterdays mêlée began because a member PM'd me and complained to me about the individuals OFF TOPIC posting. It was quite frankly was becoming a distraction and the individual OBVIOUSLY does NOT care to FOLLOW THE RULES. Personally I think the individual is trying to create these problems and has been trying to pick fights on the board. I think it is by design. I hear complaints from members CONSTANTLY about this irritating individual. But still no one stepped up.

You say no one steps up to the plate, but you don't include Bruce in that, because... ?

If you mean no one, which is what you said, say it.

You've said three times that "alot of members" send complaints about me to you.

What stops them from sending complaints TO ME.. ?

I didn't even know I was bothering any one... .

How am I supposed to know I am bothering them if they don't say so?

What kind of people hide behind some table captain type of big mouth?

You remind me of the guy who is ALWAYS at a poker table in the casino telling everyone how to bet, how to play, when to act, what to do, telling the dealer how to deal and etc.. you're down $700 for the hour but you still know everything and say so every four minutes.

You act like you OWN this forum OUTRIGHT, are you even a mod here?

Why haven't any of these people who complain to you about me spoken up as of yet... ???!

This board will run how Nunnaly wants it to run.. and I don't think he wants to see you acting like you're better than everyone else, I am sure he doesn't like to see bickering and what becomes a bad board atmosphere morale

I've admitted that I do get off topic sometimes and I will not be doing that in the future.. If I'd known it was a problem I would have worked on it sooner. As far as I knew, I was bothering one person, you,

if those geniuses YOU SAY complained to you about me would have complained to me instead of behind my back everything would have been fine just fine.

By the way your thinly veiled little threats don't bother me

I've dealt with scarier things than you at church over here pal

[Cadillac Jim]

I think The Fred has a good point -- if we have an issue with a member, we should PM him about it, not post public criticism or ask another member to deal with it.

I will add that when you PM anyone, you should observe the highest possible level of courtesy and consideration. I'm puzzled by PMs that ask one member to deal with another -- "let's you and him fight."

Another bit of advice about posting anything online anywhere -- a bit of advice I PM'ed a member after he posted a narrative about an innocent stoplight Grand Prix -- never put anything online that you wouldn't want produced at any time in the future, out of context. A PM can be forwarded or re-posed. Hiring companies and other entities routinely Google applicants, and I've had posts on Caddyinfo by myself and others come up on a Google. Examples of how a 10-year-old post or PM that seemed perfectly appropriate at the time can come back to haunt you:

• Job application or security clearance application or file.
• Visa application for a dry or very tightly controlled country like Saudi Arabia.
• Child custody hearing.
• Sentencing hearing for a speeding conviction in rural Mississippi.
• Visa application for a visit to a country that tightly screens visas like Switzerland or Japan for business.
• Dinner party where some friends roast you and your 6-year-old is present.
• Driver's license hearing or data file.
• DUI adjudication, appeal, or sentencing hearing.

You get the idea.

[BodybyFisher]

Stop sending me emails Fred I don't like your tone nor am I interested in speaking with you, you have heard what I have had to say.

See if its possible to drop this because you are continuing to escalate it. What do you plan to accomplish by escalating this?

If you can not see that you continually post off topic this is worse than I thought. After being ejected from the other board for ridiculous posts and threads (being referred to as a 'post whore') why do you come here and continue doing the same thing? I don't want to hear ANY excuses if you read the comments in the petition to ban thread, the MEMBERS didn't have any kind words for you. Why come over here an act a fool?

I will repeat this again, 1) stay on topic, 2) keep off topic threads in the 19th hole, and 3) if you don't have something relative to the discussion or related experience it is not necessary to post.

Do you REALLY need to be told to stay on topic on a Cadillac forum? Why is it necessary for you to know that members are upset to behave and comply? Why? Simply obey the rules. Main board = Cadillac Discussion, PERIOD

You started this post in the main section, I had it moved to the 19th hole:

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...;hl=This+thread

See my post #10. Your thread AGAIN began in the main section and was moved to the 19th hole. I made it clear what the two sections were for:

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...mp;hl=19th+hole

See my post #87, how much more do you need to understand that FOCUS is important and off topic is frowned upon?

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...l=gun&st=75

You sent me an email referring to what you call threats by me in the "inane vs irrelevant behavior" thread. Threats? What a laugh. There are no threats in there.

Fred the point of my discussion in "inane vs irrelevant behavior" that you are referring to as a threat is that if you continue escalating this or going head to head with me, I will drag out every asinine thing you have said, every off topic post you put in the main section and show it to you, you have NO leg to stand on. If you perceive that as a threat, so be it.

My body of work here speaks for itself over the seven years I have frequented this board. I have helped a lot of people all over the world and I give a lot of myself. Do you think that your body of work can stand up to scrutiny if I begin putting together all of your drunken and incoherent threads and posts and compile them in one location? You must be kidding! What a laugh. That was my point, YOU are making a BIG mistake escalating this, you have way too many off topic threads and posts to be playing games here.

Fred, if you didn't know NOT to post off topic in the main thread and that it upsets us, NOW you know!!!! Off topic posts in the main section are WRONG, please read the topic of the main section. Visit the 19th hole. All you need to do is comply with the boards rules its that simple. Now end this.

I think The Fred has a good point -- if we have an issue with a member, we should PM him about it, not post public criticism or ask another member to deal with it.

I will add that when you PM anyone, you should observe the highest possible level of courtesy and consideration. I'm puzzled by PMs that ask one member to deal with another -- "let's you and him fight."

Jim, we should PM a member about his off topic posts, I don't think so that can create more trouble. It should be brought to the off topic posters attention and the post should be wiped. His OFF TOPIC stuff HAS been brought to his attention.

In addtion NO one asked ME to deal with Fred, his OFF TOPIC post was brought to my attention. I simply had had it as I had asked Fred to stay on topic before and many of his off topic threads were MOVED. What must be done for this person to begin to adhearing to what is expected? Could you tell me that? Realize it or not I converse with many members on a daily basis, as you would expect many of Freds drunken rants come up, plain and simple. He needs to correct this. Lets not make excuses for him.

[Bruce Nunnally]

My conclusion is that I need to moderate more actively in order to get posts into the right forums, and to get posts out of topics they don't belong in. Then we won't have the resulting member vs member posts/arguments, or at least hold them to a minimum. Everone should keep in mind that you can IGNORE any member's posts automatically.

I think I understand Regis' thoughtful input(s), which is that more rules are not needed.

My other original point in this topic was that in some cases, replies which DISAGREE with the original poster can be considered off topic and removed as well in some cases. Posts which invite debate of course debate is appropriate. However, if the post is, "How can I lower my Cadillac?" or "how do I do lamborgini doors?" then responses like "please don't lower your Cadillac" or "yuck, I hate lamborgini doors" are off-topic.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Bruce. Ideally when members become knowledgable about the topics your input should be minimal.

As an example, I have seen new members come in and put a FOR SALE Caddy in the main board, not knowing about the For Sale section. I have seen you move these threads.

[Bruce Nunnally]

Can't see the last two posts [now invisible] added to the topic, so they are offline. We seem to have concensus for now, so here we go.

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Again

[1LowDeville]

boy i musta really lite a fire on here with my thread- ya i'm a tad over sensitive but hey when you have no one to help you on your point you have to bring out the big guns .. i understand that not everyone is not into customizing caddy's to what i do - for that i am sorry-

Now -about the frame on the ground not allowing the wheels to touch -- Hmm - maybe a class on air ride suspension is in order ..

air ride suspension 101

air ride suspension allows for a vehicle to raise or lower at a touch of a button . you can ride as low as you want or as high as you want - When you get in to drive - you "air " up the car and your off - . when you park - air it out - also a good way to prevent theft haha

Air ride consists of the following parts:

air tank

8 air valves

a compressor

air line

a switch box

and a set of gauages to see tank and bag presure.

4 Air bags

Sorry for going o/t here in this thread but had to answer:)

[Cadillac Jim]

1LowDevile: You lit no fire. I made a joke on people who object to lowering Caddys, not at people who want to lower their Caddys. Anyone who wants to lower their Caddy, I am happy to help and I have automotive experience back to the 1950's and can help more than most, and am VERY happy to do so.

On the other hand, if you do have pictures or MOV files of your Caddy, I and many other would very happy to see them on your main thread.

A lot of the references on this thread were internal (relevant to old-timers) and not pointed to you, and include a LOT of things that you should not have been subjected to. In point of fact, this thread exists because a lot of posts by others on your thread were less than helpful, not because of your question. You did NOT have to answer on this thread and you ABSOLUTELY have nothing to apologize for. Let it go. And, post with confidence that our replies will be helpful.

[Rickster]

1LowDevile: You lit no fire. I made a joke on people who object to lowering Caddys, not at people who want to lower their Caddys. Anyone who wants to lower their Caddy, I am happy to help and I have automotive experience back to the 1950's and can help more than most, and am VERY happy to do so.

On the other hand, if you do have pictures or MOV files of your Caddy, I and many other would very happy to see them on your main thread.

A lot of the references on this thread were internal (relevant to old-timers) and not pointed to you, and include a LOT of things that you should not have been subjected to. In point of fact, this thread exists because a lot of posts by others on your thread were less than helpful, not because of your question. You did NOT have to answer on this thread and you ABSOLUTELY have nothing to apologize for. Let it go. And, post with confidence that our replies will be helpful.

I concur. We are as enthusiatic as you. Do as you wish to your ride. Make us wish we have a ride like yours.