Well done, Connecticut voters!

[JimD]

If the exit polls are accurate tonight, kuddos to the voters of Connecticut for sending Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate as an independent.

And shame on the DNC and their unbalanced chairman for trying to push Lieberman out of office for thinking and speaking common sense.

[BodybyFisher]

Ditto

[Rickster]

OK OK. Remember no politics.

We have are problems here. You have your problems there. Don't get me started on local politics.

Lets leave it at that.

[BodybyFisher]

While its never pleasant to discuss religion or politics, I just reviewed the TOS and don't see any prohibition of it. This is the 19th Hole and the topic is "A quiet, elegant Clubhouse with nice fireplace and easy chairs, where you can chat about other things besides Cadillacs".

If you are worried about controversial topics lets not discuss oil, tires, the cause of head gasket problems or injector cleaner either, we might upset some of the membership.

Personally the Women who own Cadillac's thread was offensive to me and potentially to our women members

[Bruce Nunnally]

I agree with both sides of the discussion. This forum is intended for anything not related to Cadillacs that otherwise fits in the terms of usage. However, I appreciate Rickster's desire to stray away from noncadillac topics that we KNOW would be controversial, such as politics.

My only advice is to try to avoid arguments, as those topics will be closed. My personal take on politics is, as I believe Will Rogers said, "Thank goodness we don't get all the government we pay for".

[Regis]

Hi Bruce and everyone,

My question is: Where do we (you) draw the line? Personally I don't get over passionate about politics but I do stay somewhat informed. I believe it's our personal duty as American citizens. Isn't this really about restraint or the lack of? Everyday you and I hear something we don't personally care for. Does that mean we should get all worked up and throw a hissy fit? Of course not because it's about exercising personal control and keeping one's composure. The way I see it is that this topic is only a problem if people make it so. If politics bother you (anyone) then why would you even bother reading this thread??? Come on already. We're all adults here. If you don't like reading something then Stop Reading It! It's the same thing as your television set. If you don't like a particular program then what do you do? You change the channel. Problem solved. Stop blaming others for your lack of self control.

It really bothers me that Bruce even has to monitor this kind of discussion like a mother does to a child. And it's very Big Brotherish. He shouldn't have to. And I think there is nothing wrong with this topic. It's located in the 19th Hole where it should be. If politics enrages you then do everyone a favor and "change the channel" and stop stepping on everyone else's rights.

Some of you may not know this but I'm of Asian descent. And how often do we see the word "Ricer" come up in discussion? That's right, a whole lot! It's obviously a negative word used to reference something made in Asia. Boy I should throw a major smurf* fit. But why don't I? Because I understand where it comes from and why it's said. So I exercise Tolerance. Heck I've even said it a time or two myself. Tolerance......a very good word.

[The Fred]

Not to be debating but I don't like either party.

(#(@ them both

The federal reserve is privately owned and not by us

That's all I am saying

[epricedright]

Did anyone see "Hacking Democracy" on HBO?

Negative Votes?

Executable Vote Changing Cards?

Is Diebold on the take?

Poll tapes missing?

Very interesting!

[Bruce Nunnally]

and through the magic of google video, Hacking Democracy is available in its 1 hr 21 min entirety here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...ed&hl=en-CA

although it is important to realize / recognize that documentaries are not required to be objective or offer a balanced view.

[epricedright]

My question is: Where do we (you) draw the line? Personally I don't get over passionate about politics but I do stay somewhat informed. I believe it's our personal duty as American citizens. Isn't this really about restraint or the lack of? Everyday you and I hear something we don't personally care for. Does that mean we should get all worked up and throw a hissy fit? Of course not because it's about exercising personal control and keeping one's composure. The way I see it is that this topic is only a problem if people make it so. If politics bother you (anyone) then why would you even bother reading this thread??? Come on already. We're all adults here. If you don't like reading something then Stop Reading It! It's the same thing as your television set. If you don't like a particular program then what do you do? You change the channel. Problem solved. Stop blaming others for your lack of self control.

It really bothers me that Bruce even has to monitor this kind of discussion like a mother does to a child. And it's very Big Brotherish. He shouldn't have to. And I think there is nothing wrong with this topic. It's located in the 19th Hole where it should be. If politics enrages you then do everyone a favor and "change the channel" and stop stepping on everyone else's rights.

Some of you may not know this but I'm of Asian descent. And how often do we see the word "Ricer" come up in discussion? That's right, a whole lot! It's obviously a negative word used to reference something made in Asia. Boy I should throw a major smurf* fit. But why don't I? Because I understand where it comes from and why it's said. So I exercise Tolerance. Heck I've even said it a time or two myself. Tolerance......a very good word.

Hi Regis, Bruce and everyone else,

I too am of Asian descent. My mother is Japanese. How often do we see the word "Jap" and "Jap car" come up? A Lot! And usually with a negative overtone. Historically, the word "Jap" has a derogatory, racists overtone here in the U.S.. Does it bother me when I see it here? Well hell yes! But do you see me complaining...no...not yet! I've learned to be tolerant of other people's ignorance.

Definition of Jap straight from wikipedia: Jap (variants: Japo, Japse) is a term denoting anything Japanese. In most English-speaking countries, it is accepted that it is a derogatory racial slur similar to the "N" word when referring to dark skinned people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

I don't see the other derogatory, ethnic, racial slurs that I won't list, ever on this board...why is that I wonder??? So yes, where do we draw the line?

[BodybyFisher]

I'm getting a feeling we are going to lose the 19th hole if this continues. This thread seems to have struck a cord. There is a word in the prior post that needs to be smurfed.

Epriced, honestly, I don't think the term is meant to be personally derogatory, I think it is directed at the strong competition that the Japanese fuel efficient cars were for the US auto industry in the 70's and 80's. It took the US market 25 years to recover. If it were not for those fuel efficient cars we would still be driving cars that sucked fuel like my 74 500 cu in Eldorado did.. Competition was good for fuel consumption and emissions in the long run. Its not personal at all...

I don't think most people give thought to the root of words that become more or less jargon, but in discussing like this, people can understand how insensitive it can be and become more aware and informed.

[Regis]

I'm getting a feeling we are going to lose the 19th hole if this continues. This thread seems to have struck a cord. There is a word in the prior post that needs to be smurfed. Honestly, I don't think the term is meant to be personally derogatory, I think it is directed at the strong competition that the Japanese fuel efficient cars were for the US auto industry in the 70's and 80's. It took the US market 25 years to recover. If it were not for those fuel efficient cars we would still be driving cars that sucked fuel like my 74 500 cu in Eldorado did.. I don't think its personal at all...

I feel pretty much the same as BBF. At the same time I understand epricedright's ("Ed" LOL) point and passion behind it. But I think the point has been made about the "right" of this thread to exist and all efforts should be made to steer this ship back on course. I would be dissappointed if this thread were yanked and the original point I was making, in defense of this thread, lost. Full speed ahead Captain.

[epricedright]

I'm getting a feeling we are going to lose the 19th hole if this continues. This thread seems to have struck a cord. There is a word in the prior post that needs to be smurfed.

Epriced, honestly, I don't think the term is meant to be personally derogatory, I think it is directed at the strong competition that the Japanese fuel efficient cars were for the US auto industry in the 70's and 80's. It took the US market 25 years to recover. If it were not for those fuel efficient cars we would still be driving cars that sucked fuel like my 74 500 cu in Eldorado did.. Competition was good for fuel consumption and emissions in the long run. Its not personal at all...

I don't think most people give thought to the root of words that become more or less jargon, but in discussing like this, people can understand how insensitive it can be and become more aware and informed.

I edited the above post to say the "N" word. I was only quoting wikipedia, as I personally never use the word. But if we're going to smurf the "N" word, then we need to smurf the "J" word and "R" word as well. Let's not be bigots. "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander". Think about it Mike! All 3 are derogatory racial slurs, personal or not. I could give lame justifications for other ethnic/racial derogatory slurs as you did, but won't.

Maybe the "J" and "R" words are still in today's "jargon", because not enough people who find those words offensive have spoken up.

[BodybyFisher]

And that was the point with my LAME excuse, to discuss it and make people aware that the words they use are hurting.

I will tell you this however. My Dad fought in WW2 in the south pacific and never had derogatory things to say about the people of Japan ever.

I will say this however, when Japanese cars showed up in the US in the 60's (Toyota), my Dad thought they were a joke. From his perspective, bigger/heavier/more powerful was better. They even had the name TOY on them and next to our 59-65 Cadillacs they were cute TOYS, that was not hard to see. With gas at less than 30 cents a gallon what was the point? The owner of one was making a statement by driving one in my humble opinion. Not only that, in the beginning they did not have the quality, they were hard to get parts for and they rusted badly. We basically laughed at them and also at VW BUGS... as cheap death traps. My Dad saw two serviceman die in a VW when it was in a headon collison and the front mounted gas tank exploded killing them. He even said they should re-name these cars HOOVERS as we BLEW by them. So from my humble experience and while it may be LAME, the comments are directed at the CARS not the PEOPLE. Then came the Datsun 240Z and everything changed.

That said, there is no excuse for using words that are hurtful and derogatory, but now we all know that.

[stsjoe]

My ONLY Political post:

Thank the Lord the Election is over

Term limits

No campaining till 30 days before the Election

And when its over you have 24hrs to get your signs!

Joe

[JimD]

Our two year cycle dooms us to near constant electioneering.

The Governor of Iowa today announced as a candidate for the White House; 729 days to go! We should be able to come up with some appropriate comments before November 4, 2008.

Not my last (political) post.

[BodybyFisher]

My ONLY Political post:

Thank the Lord the Election is over

Term limits

No campaining till 30 days before the Election

And when its over you have 24hrs to get your signs!

Joe

Amen!

[stsjoe]

Okay lasts Political post, I was embarrassed when a Danish exchange student informed me that the United States has the oldest continuously running Democracy on the Planet. I never thought about it

Go Figure, Joe

[tjtjwdad]

Are we a Democracy? I always thought we were a Republic.

Jim

[MAC]

I don't remember any time where the word "jap" (which, from my brief search has been said rarely in 89,429 posts thus far) was used in a derogatory way towards people of Japanese decent. Rather, the word was used in the spirit of U.S./Japan auto competition.

This forum is about the most civil and well-mannered that I have seen. However, sometimes people may comment in the course of a conversation and not fully appreciate the possibility that others may be offended even though there was no intent to offend.

[epricedright]

I don't remember any time where the word "jap" (which, from my brief search has been said rarely in 89,429 posts thus far) was used in a derogatory way towards people of Japanese decent. Rather, the word was used in the spirit of U.S./Japan auto competition.

This forum is about the most civil and well-mannered that I have seen. However, sometimes people may comment in the course of a conversation and not fully appreciate the possibility that others may be offended even though there was no intent to offend.

Hello Mac, Bruce and fellow board members.

Hmmm...you say "said rarely". Among the many other times it has been used, ironically, the word "Jap" was used right after I made my initial post here in this thread on November 9th, later on that afternoon by Astrak in post #15:

"The reason you don't see many old Jap cars on the road is because the body just doesn't last they rust horribly."

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11642

The word "Jap" itself is an offensive and derogatory racial slur, regardless of it's intent to offend someone personally or not, and regardless of the context of it's meaning. Please try to understand that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/j/j0016400.html

To make my point, it would be like me saying:

"That Chink food last night was really good"

"The Raghead cuisine is very spicy"

"Those Kraut cars are very fast"

"I loved the Kike food at their wedding"

"I had a wop car in high school"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Do we see any of those words used here? No. Thank goodness! I apologize if I offended anyone. My point is even though those words were not used derogatorily towards those people themselves, they are still derogatory and racists, written in ANY context.

The words "Jap" and "Ricer" are derogatory, racial, disparaging, offensive and hurtful to people of Asian descent, just like the above words are to their respective nationalities and races. If you could have walked in my shoes when I was younger, you would understand. I don't know how many times I was approached by someone saying "Hey Jap!", and how many fights then ensued. But that was when I was young and immature. It takes a lot more than words to get me rowled up nowadays. But when I was called that, they weren't trying to be nice and polite, they were only trying to be mean and hurtful.

I feel some think it's ok to use those words here given the Japanese are a major competitor to the Americans when it comes to cars. And in the spirit of competition, the Japanese are often looked at in a derogatory manner, with a hint of anti-Japanese sentiment, and hence those words flow more freely. Of course there was WWII, let's never forget that. And then there are others who have no clue.

I agree this board is as civil as they get, and no one has attacked me personally, but we could do without those words being used as freely as they are. But do I expect EVERYONE here to read this thread and understand those words are racial and hurtful - and stop using them?...No. Will there be those who don't care?....Probably. And will I lose any sleep over it?...again, No.

Bruce, I think it would be a good idea to add those words to the smurf list. Maybe that would help enlighten those who are unaware.

I just found this:

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/vote/212/all

Ignorance galore!

[stsjoe]

Unfortunately its impossible not to offend, I had the driveway paved (why do you call where you park your car the driveway and where you drive it the parkway?) and the guy ask my neighbor if he wanted his done, his wife was cooking dinner and the guy commented on how much he liked Japanese food.....their Chinese and fled China during the Invasion of Nan king, yes their in their late 80's and I thought I was going to see a gunfight, He just didn't know. I'll endeavour to be more thoughtful and educated in what I say and how it is said.

Peace Joe

[Regis]

I can't emphasize enough how much I did not want this thread to go in the direction it did. It takes away from the original poster's intentions. And I feel partly responsible because I allowed the door to be open for a discussion that should be seperate from this one. Since the "damage" is done I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify my position. First I'll give you my vague background. I'm a 100% Korean, born, bred, and moved to the States at 5. I grew up getting called many names and having obvious things pointed out constantly. "Hey you have slanty eyes!" "Well no smurf* Sherlock!" As a kid looking different was painful and some of you can probably relate yourselves. As an adult looking different was to my advantage. It makes me stand out and easily identifiable. And life is good.

I was once Korean but that was a long time ago. As a kid I took an oath and pledged my allegiance to the United States of America. From that moment on I was no longer a Korean but an American. And who makes up America? Every nationality and creed under the sun. Yes Korea was my birth place and, although, I will take my visual reminder with me to the grave, I am and always will be an American.

Epricedright got a bit passionate and I can't speak for him but we clearly have different views when it comes to this subject. And there's nothing wrong with that. I've been called a lot of names like kimchee (good stuff by the way), rice eater (love it), slant eyes (helps keep dust out), and a host of other goodies. But honestly they never really bother me because it's all on how they're used and the intent behind the words. If someone has malicious intent then sure it would sting. But most times inappropriate names and words are used without bad intent and to me that makes all the difference. I had someone say to me that "Those darn Asians are going to take over the world!" And I just chuckled and said, "Yeah but have you had Asian food? It wouldn't be all bad now would it?" And he laughed and we talked on. Now I've used the would Jap and ricer, etc. and to me Jap encompasses many things in one single word. To me it conveys my irritation on the automotive success they have, yet my admiration. Perhaps a little jealousy? And now that the Koreans are flooding the market with Hyndais........ even I find myself saying "Those darn Koreans!" "They're killing us!" And people around me find it funny when I'm slamming the Koreans. That's because I'm Korean on the outside but American on the inside (Twinky). Now if you really want to get a unified beating from the entire Asian populous then just use the C word. Unless you're armour suit has a chink in it. LOL

[BodybyFisher]

Kim, well said, my good friend. I have used the term rice burner a couple of times (never Jap) and its the intent. When I used it or hear it I think; coffee can exhaust, letters across the top of the windshield, baseball cap, high RPMs, gradient colored tints, wings, aftermarket rear light assemblies and booming stereo.. As Jim says, are you doing 70 in a phone booth? I will refrain from using the term rice burner in the future now that I have become more edumacated. But, please provide me with a word that I can use that captures all of those attributes that rice burner does! :lol: How about this, I stomped on a tricked out (or pimped out?) Honda/Nissan/Toyota? Or maybe not commenting on them at all, considering that I could eat them for breakfast with my Northstar (with the exception of a Mazda rotary which is scary fast and with turbos they are rockets ). I have to laugh when I hear someone say, yea, I kicked an Accord's butt with my STS.... uhh... and that is surprising, why?

My son's claim to be Italian. I am 50% Irish and 50% German, their mom is 100% Italian. We have an IRISH last name, but they claim to be Italian... In New York City, to them I guess it's cooler to be Italian. Yo Adrian! I tell them you are AMERICAN!

I go to the Bronx and Brooklyn and you see Dominican, Puerto Rican, Nicaraguan flags and businesses, I guess being an American isn't cool. Push 1 for ENGLISH, why isn't it PUSH 1 for Spanish, with English as the DEFAULT? I have given more than ONE operator a piece of my mind for that.. Ahh the PC crowd...

Go Figure, I'm just a drunk Irishman, what do I know America is dying from within and its scary. Don't get me started..

[epricedright]

Unfortunately its impossible not to offend, I had the driveway paved (why do you call where you park your car the driveway and where you drive it the parkway?) and the guy ask my neighbor if he wanted his done, his wife was cooking dinner and the guy commented on how much he liked Japanese food.....their Chinese and fled China during the Invasion of Nan king, yes their in their late 80's and I thought I was going to see a gunfight, He just didn't know. I'll endeavour to be more thoughtful and educated in what I say and how it is said.

Peace Joe

It's not impossible, if you use a little forethought. Your driveway guy could of done better by saying he liked oriental food or Asian food, instead of assuming they were Japanese. Typically, Asians can't stand to be mistaken for another nationality, and take great offense to it, more so than other nationalities it seems. I'm sure your driveway guy had no clue that was the case. I bet he won't do that again. It's kind of like saying to an over weight woman "when are you due?" Believe it or not, I did that once when I was young. Won't do that EVER again!

"Lessons learned are like bridges burned, you only need to cross them but once."