Need schematic or diagram of Injection system 94 STS

[The Fred]

Lord knows they still do,

I've been over here working on my fathers PC for 5+++ hours

Just got done installing SP4 and now windows update is downloading 49 updates... and then it has to install them. *sigh*

And his DSL line is only 1.5Mbps *sigh*

[The Fred]

Well it is a good thing I wasn't using dialup or I'd still be there!

Of course I ended up over there for a year so I didn't get to work on the car tonight.

I'm going to try and get to the plates tomorrow and I'm sending the injectors in to that place you showed me.

Thanks !

[Cadillac Jim]

Put XP on the computer. W2K is fine but XP is mostly the same and will be supported by MS longer.

I would venture that your crusting-up has happened since the car hasn't been running well. If the injectors all work well, I would try to clear them by driving.

Jim, do you think that means that they stop putting out security patches for the operating system when they stop supporting it?

MS will continue putting up patches, security and otherwise, as long as a significant number of industrial users refuse to upgrade to XP. The home and individual users won't drive this equation and it's not MS's fault, it's reality: it takes a whole lot of people (read: $$$) to keep researching the data about operating systems and writing these patches, then testing them to ensure the reliability of the patched product. When that no longer makes sense, i.e. the negative cash flow begins to be a problem, the group is disbanded and the people reassigned.

W2K has been out there for seven years. The usual life of an OS release is more like 2-4 years, with support to 10 years life, with the amount of support tapering down. With that timeline, W2K would be in the twilight stage -- except that most industrial users refused to upgrade to XP until a few months after SP2. This slip in timeline adds two to five years to the life of W2K. However, they are no longer selling W2K at retail, so there is no money coming in to defray W2K support costs except licensing and support contracts with industrial uses.

Bottom line: W2K support will probably start tapering off soon, with patches limited to security fixes (not bug fixes or fixes for compatibiity with newer software). WXP will be supported about 5 years longer. Their next release, "Longhorn," is probably going to be out around the end of the year, and support people from W2K and WXP groups will likely be transferred to the WLH support group, and the rampdown of support for W2K will take hold in earnest.

[The Fred]

Looks like I got us off course.. sorry about that,

I'm aware of what you're saying about the Windows 2000 O/S and we're agreeing

Now then,

I took these rascals out the car today and it looks like on one end of the front one there is a complete blockage and a similar blockage on the other one but not totally blocked-

Also the underside gasket has a "cut" halfway through it coming from the outside in

Can I buy a gasket for it or will that RTV be good?

I'm going to try and hunt up a camera to show you how it looks-

There is that greasy slude buildup like all of a crazy - can I use a solvent?

[BodybyFisher]

The RTV that the GURU speaks about in the article that I posted will be fine. Of course I would replace them, but if you don't think you will leak and RTV will seal it do so. Do not over do the RTV. BE SURE that any RTV you use is O2 Sensor safe. Read the GURU article I posted.

Only clean the greasy buildup on the spacers no were else. Make sure the mouse holes and mating surfaces are clean. Use a shop vac to make sure you DON'T drop stuff down the intake ports.

[The Fred]

[The Fred]

I found another place where one of the gaskets was a little "twisted"

The mouse holes are they the 2 little round holes in each spacer?

Since I am only supposed to clean the spacers,

And I have them out on the bench,

I don't need to worry about a shop vac and all of that right?

Ah I see now

"The recessed slots in the head surface are also good to clean out and the mouse holes mentioned that are machined into the cylinder heads are very important to clean out. Those are the small machined notches at each intake port."

[BodybyFisher]

Please re-read my post #153 in THIS thread as I have said a few posts earlier. The issues you just asked about are explained there. I feel that I am wasting my time posting information and you ask questions that I have already posted information on.

The MOUSE holes are in the HEAD, see Post #153

UGH.... You need to USE the SHOP VAC when cleaning the MOUSE HOLES, the INTAKE PORTS and MATING SURFACE in the HEAD so it does NOT fall into the intake ports.

[PAUL T]

Fred, if your gaskets are as bad as you are saying I would buy new ones if possible. My gaskets were fine and I just added Black RTV for a little piece of mind. That seal is very important. It is probably the hissing sound you heard earlier like a bad vacuum hose. I kinda suspected you had a vacuum leak at the plates. As far as the sludge, I would just scrape it all off good as you can, as the Guru says, it will not be long and the will be carboned again. I would not use a solvent. Only by doing WOT can you keep it clean.

There are some holes in the plates make sure they are clean also.

When you get it back together it ought to run like a scalded dog!

[The Fred]

Please re-read my post #153 in THIS thread as I have said a few posts earlier. The issues you just asked about are explained there. I feel that I am wasting my time posting information and you ask questions that I have already posted information on.

The MOUSE holes are in the HEAD, see Post #153

UGH.... You need to USE the SHOP VAC when cleaning the MOUSE HOLES, the INTAKE PORTS and MATING SURFACE in the HEAD so it does NOT fall into the intake ports.

I already had read back to that post and figured that out.. read my post above yours there..

I don't know how someone did that with 2x2s under there don't you need some room to work and a way to see?

Fred, if your gaskets are as bad as you are saying I would buy new ones if possible. My gaskets were fine and I just added Black RTV for a little piece of mind. That seal is very important. It is probably the hissing sound you heard earlier like a bad vacuum hose. I kinda suspected you had a vacuum leak at the plates. As far as the sludge, I would just scrape it all off good as you can, as the Guru says, it will not be long and the will be carboned again. I would not use a solvent. Only by doing WOT can you keep it clean.

There are some holes in the plates make sure they are clean also.

When you get it back together it ought to run like a scalded dog!

Do you know of a way to get the parts house to figure out what I need?

What should I tell them it's called?

Also I thought that WOT wouldn't help the spacers.. did I read that wrong?

Thanks for all of your help guys you're great I tell you what good lord.

[KHE]

I would buy the gaskets at the Cadillac dealer or online from gmotors.com. Then you know you will get the proper gaskets.

[BodybyFisher]

I already had read back to that post and figured that out.. read my post above yours there..

I don't know how someone did that with 2x2s under there don't you need some room to work and a way to see?

You already had WHAT figured out?

YOUR POST #204, Also the underside gasket has a "cut" halfway through it coming from the outside in

Can I buy a gasket for it or will that RTV be good? NOTICE THE WORD CUT!!!!!

YOUR POST #207 The mouse holes are they the 2 little round holes in each spacer? IN EACH SPACER????????

YOUR POST #207 Since I am only supposed to clean the spacers,

And I have them out on the bench,

I don't need to worry about a shop vac and all of that right? OMG OMG, ONLY CLEAN THE SPACERS????? DON'T NEED SHOP VAC??????

YOUR POST #207 Those are the small machined notches at each intake port OMG

Please don't make me look like I am an idiot or not understanding you, with your "I already had read back to that post and figured that out.. read my post above yours there..". With the statements you made in Posts 204 and 207 your WORDS DO NOT say you have anything figured out. If you do, your words say you DO NOT. If you read my Post #153 written by the GURU, Paul's Post #196 and my post #205 you would NOT be asking such ridiculous questions. You are making us waste a lot of time here man FIX the car. REPLACE the gaskets if they are BAD as I would DO and as PAUL would do if they were TWISTED and DO NOT appear to be capable of stopping vacuum from leaking. It would NOT even be a second thought to me I'D REPLACE THEM IMMEDIATELY! You are looking for MAJOR VACUUM and ROUGHNESS problems here the GASKETS are GONE in my BOOK...

Honestly Fred, it was magnanomous that you gave away the MATS, but you need to spend the money on this car to get it running. That money should have been spent of buying new intake gaskets to eliminate that potential problem. Paul so smartly remembered you had a vacuum leak sound, THAT twist could be the problem! BUY NEW INTAKE SEALS/GASKETS. If you can afford Mats you can afford the gaskets.

If you have been reading you would have read this:

here is part of Post #153

There is no nead to clean out the manifold itself or even to take the cover off. Just remove the inner 4 bolts that are recessed into the cover and the entire manifold will lift up.

All the gaskets should be reusable. Have some RTV handy so if one of the gaskets is damaged or torn you can patch it locally with a dab of the RTV.

The phenolic plates are all that need to be cleaned. Just scrape the carbon out of the recessed passages with different size screwdrivers and such. Nothing fancy.

The recessed slots in the head surface are also good to clean out and the mouse holes mentioned that are machined into the cylinder heads are very important to clean out. Those are the small machined notches at each intake port.

There is also a hole in the cylinder head at each end that leads towards the rear of the engine that feeds the EGR into the phenolic plates that should be checked. It is usually pretty clean but it should be checked for carbon buildup.

Remember that the idea is to get the majority of the carbon out of the grooves in the phenolic spacer plates. It is going to get sooty again pretty soon so you don't need to be squeeky clean...just clean the majority of the crud out and let'er rip

Paul's post #196:

Do not forget to have the vacuum handy when you clean off the head surface. By the way, I used black RTV on the gaskets for an added assurance of a better seal

My Post #205:

The RTV that the GURU speaks about in the article that I posted will be fine. Of course I would replace them, but if you don't think you will leak and RTV will seal it do so. Do not over do the RTV. BE SURE that any RTV you use is O2 Sensor safe. Read the GURU article I posted.

Only clean the greasy buildup on the spacers no were else. Make sure the mouse holes and mating surfaces are clean. Use a shop vac to make sure you DON'T drop stuff down the intake ports.

But you CONTINUE to ask ridiculous questions in Posts 204 and 207. I'm done with this, we have given you more time, information and direction than is needed for this job BY FAR. You were banned from the other board for INANE statements and you had a THREAD that was 125 pages LONG over there. Your words tell me you DONT have ANYTHING figured out, unless you are talking to hear yourself talk! Say what you mean and mean what you say. This is NOT a personal attack get that right, ITS THE RESULT OF THIS in POST 207:

The mouse holes are they the 2 little round holes in each spacer? (WHAT?)

Since I am only supposed to clean the spacers, (WHAT?)

And I have them out on the bench,

I don't need to worry about a shop vac and all of that right? (WHAT?)

I have to say you are playing with us or you are NOT reading what we have POSTED OVER AND OVER AND OVER. WE CAN NOT HOLD YOUR HAND. BUT AT LEAST SHOW ME WE ARE NOT WASTING OUR TIME! If I TOOK JUST MY TIME HERE AND ADDED IT UP, AND CHARGED YOU ON A HOURLY BASIS DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THAT MIGHT COST? THIS IS NOT FREE FOR ME PERSONALLY! Don't post INANE statements that have been responded to already many times even by the GURU that designed the engine.

REPLACE THE GASKETS TO ELIMINATE A VACUUM LEAK SINCE YOU FOUND A TWIST AND BE DONE WITH IT. IF THE GASKETS DO NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM HAVE THE INJECTORS PROFESSIONALLY CLEANED.

PAUL has given you some terrific insight here and has given you the final puzzle pieces to finish this. The next thing that I want to hear from you is, its running incredible guys, its got a FOR SALE sign on it.

[PAUL T]

There are some holes in the plates make sure they are clean also.

Mike, there are holes in the Phenolic plates for EGR passage from the cylinder head. I think these are the mouse holes in the plates Fred is referring to.

Fred, the Phenolic plate is called a "spacer" under the intake manifold parts list. You need the upper and lower gaskets for the spacers. The dealer should be able to pull up a picture of the intake for a 94 Northstar.

It was not easy getting in there to clean the cylinder head ports with the 2X2's in place but it can be done. It lifts up a little more to get light to it.

Good Luck Fred, keep your fingers crossed.

[BodybyFisher]

I understand there are holes in spacers BUT, by now, we ALL know that they are NOT called mouse holes. The MOUSE holes are in the HEAD. The GURU's words on Post #159 make that clear 50 posts ago.

Glib replies like "I already had read back to that post and figured that out.." when that's not the case or "I'm not the IDIOT this time" create problems. I don't know this engine inside out nor have a seen one. I don't have it in front of me, but NOW, I know I can pull the spacers and clean them and the mouse holes.

The problem here is that I am an extreme detail person, and the answers coming back at me are broad, incomplete and repetitive, and that irks me. When you think you have reached a certain level of understanding and commitment, and, you are not even close, I feel time has been wasted, and that is a shame. Thanks Paul, I'm done with this, thanks for helping out here.

[The Fred]

I cleaned the mouse holes,

I fixed the gaskets,

Everything is cleaned and sealed real fine now..

Once I could see it everything made sense.

[The Fred]

I already had read back to that post and figured that out.. read my post above yours there..

I don't know how someone did that with 2x2s under there don't you need some room to work and a way to see?

You already had WHAT figured out?

YOUR POST #204, Also the underside gasket has a "cut" halfway through it coming from the outside in

Can I buy a gasket for it or will that RTV be good? NOTICE THE WORD CUT!!!!!

Right yes it looked like something sliced it... look at the picture

YOUR POST #207 The mouse holes are they the 2 little round holes in each spacer? IN EACH SPACER????????

Sorry about that I found the mouseholes

YOUR POST #207 Since I am only supposed to clean the spacers,

And I have them out on the bench,

I don't need to worry about a shop vac and all of that right? OMG OMG, ONLY CLEAN THE SPACERS????? DON'T NEED SHOP VAC??????

Somewhere I read something about only clean the spacers and nothing else..

YOUR POST #207 Those are the small machined notches at each intake port OMG

Please don't make me look like I am an idiot or not understanding you, with your "I already had read back to that post and figured that out.. read my post above yours there..". With the statements you made in Posts 204 and 207 your WORDS DO NOT say you have anything figured out. If you do, your words say you DO NOT. If you read my Post #153 written by the GURU, Paul's Post #196 and my post #205 you would NOT be asking such ridiculous questions. You are making us waste a lot of time here man FIX the car. REPLACE the gaskets if they are BAD as I would DO and as PAUL would do if they were TWISTED and DO NOT appear to be capable of stopping vacuum from leaking. It would NOT even be a second thought to me I'D REPLACE THEM IMMEDIATELY! You are looking for MAJOR VACUUM and ROUGHNESS problems here the GASKETS are GONE in my BOOK...

When I told you to read the post above yours I was referring to

"Ah I see now

"The recessed slots in the head surface are also good to clean out and the mouse holes mentioned that are machined into the cylinder heads are very important to clean out. Those are the small machined notches at each intake port.""

Honestly Fred, it was magnanomous that you gave away the MATS, but you need to spend the money on this car to get it running. That money should have been spent of buying new intake gaskets to eliminate that potential problem. Paul so smartly remembered you had a vacuum leak sound, THAT twist could be the problem! BUY NEW INTAKE SEALS/GASKETS. If you can afford Mats you can afford the gaskets.

Magnanamous, was it... I felt it was the least I could do as I know what a help you've all been and how much time you've spent helping me.. as far as being able to afford something pal I'm fresh out of cash but it didn't hurt me to do SOMETHING to give back a little.. I tried to find the gaskets they don't have them right now- I fixed the existing gaskets and I think they're well and fine.

If you have been reading you would have read this:

here is part of Post #153

There is no nead to clean out the manifold itself or even to take the cover off. Just remove the inner 4 bolts that are recessed into the cover and the entire manifold will lift up.

All the gaskets should be reusable. Have some RTV handy so if one of the gaskets is damaged or torn you can patch it locally with a dab of the RTV.

The phenolic plates are all that need to be cleaned. Just scrape the carbon out of the recessed passages with different size screwdrivers and such. Nothing fancy.

The recessed slots in the head surface are also good to clean out and the mouse holes mentioned that are machined into the cylinder heads are very important to clean out. Those are the small machined notches at each intake port.

There is also a hole in the cylinder head at each end that leads towards the rear of the engine that feeds the EGR into the phenolic plates that should be checked. It is usually pretty clean but it should be checked for carbon buildup.

Remember that the idea is to get the majority of the carbon out of the grooves in the phenolic spacer plates. It is going to get sooty again pretty soon so you don't need to be squeeky clean...just clean the majority of the crud out and let'er rip

Paul's post #196:

Do not forget to have the vacuum handy when you clean off the head surface. By the way, I used black RTV on the gaskets for an added assurance of a better seal

My Post #205:

The RTV that the GURU speaks about in the article that I posted will be fine. Of course I would replace them, but if you don't think you will leak and RTV will seal it do so. Do not over do the RTV. BE SURE that any RTV you use is O2 Sensor safe. Read the GURU article I posted.

I found some sensor safe RTV and it worked fairly well

Only clean the greasy buildup on the spacers no were else. Make sure the mouse holes and mating surfaces are clean. Use a shop vac to make sure you DON'T drop stuff down the intake ports.

But you CONTINUE to ask ridiculous questions in Posts 204 and 207. I'm done with this, we have given you more time, information and direction than is needed for this job BY FAR. You were banned from the other board for INANE statements and you had a THREAD that was 125 pages LONG over there. Your words tell me you DONT have ANYTHING figured out, unless you are talking to hear yourself talk! Say what you mean and mean what you say. This is NOT a personal attack get that right, ITS THE RESULT OF THIS in POST 207:

The mouse holes are they the 2 little round holes in each spacer? (WHAT?)

Since I am only supposed to clean the spacers, (WHAT?)

And I have them out on the bench,

I don't need to worry about a shop vac and all of that right? (WHAT?)

I had thought that most people cleaned the spacers without taking them out because I wasn't paying attention so I thought that was why they needed the shop vac once I could see everything it was obvious that I did need the shop vac and I used one... So I did ask a ridiculous question in 207 but I had corrected myself before you even posted-- what is ridiculous about 204?? ?

I have to say you are playing with us or you are NOT reading what we have POSTED OVER AND OVER AND OVER. WE CAN NOT HOLD YOUR HAND. BUT AT LEAST SHOW ME WE ARE NOT WASTING OUR TIME! If I TOOK JUST MY TIME HERE AND ADDED IT UP, AND CHARGED YOU ON A HOURLY BASIS DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THAT MIGHT COST? THIS IS NOT FREE FOR ME PERSONALLY! Don't post INANE statements that have been responded to already many times even by the GURU that designed the engine.

There is alot of information scattered through alot of posts in this thread some of it doesn't agree with the rest I got it all figured out once I got to work I understand that this is not free for you and I don't want to put you out

REPLACE THE GASKETS TO ELIMINATE A VACUUM LEAK SINCE YOU FOUND A TWIST AND BE DONE WITH IT. IF THE GASKETS DO NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM HAVE THE INJECTORS PROFESSIONALLY CLEANED.

PAUL has given you some terrific insight here and has given you the final puzzle pieces to finish this. The next thing that I want to hear from you is, its running incredible guys, its got a FOR SALE sign on it.

I'll get the gaskets next time I am in Wichita.. for now it's sealed up good there.

[rcirobin]

But....How does it RUN??????????

[The Fred]

But....How does it RUN??????????

Sorry someone stopped by as I was going to begin typing about that-

It runs the same

When I get paid on the 30th I'll send the injectors in for servicing

[The Fred]

The car had better hope that I don't catch up with the dollars before I catch up with the car