alwing17 Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 So far,after replacing the tie rod end and aligning the wheels,the vibration is signifantly reduced,but not eliminated. I was concerned about a couple of the Michelin MXV4's taking about 3 ozs. of weight ,so I contacted Sears and they gave me the # for Michelin customer relations,and they agreed to replace the tires that took that 3 ozs. of weight. I will try that first,and see.If not,I will try and see if they will upgrade me to the Pilot XGT H4's instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Nice, keep us posted. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Welcome to the group... Like premium gas... the vibration issue has been beaten to death...(sorry... bad pun) The consensus is that Road Force Balancing... with post balance numbers of less then 10 pounds... Solves the vibration problem that some of these cars have... A buddy of mine had his control arms replace by a dealership (under warranty) and it made no change. Others have postulated about brakes and rotors... some have proposed bent rims... Trust me... all of these can cause vibration... but for these cars the problem is the way the suspension system is tuned... That buttery soft ride that magically handles like she is on rails needs "perfect" tires to work... any slight tire issue will create a harmonic and will be felt at a specific speed range... on our cars 65-70 mph (most note it at 68 mph)... There are a few cars that do this... Corvettes and a lot of BMWs also shake. A "0" road force tire/wheel is way better then a tire that take 0 Oz. to balance... On my car I have one Michelin Pilot A/S that took 2.75 Oz to balance... But it road forced at only 2 pounds... best of my set... (2,5,7&8lbs) BTW the 8 pound tire was the easiest of the set to weight balance taking only 0.5 Oz.... But before the Road Force adjustment it was over 20 pounds of road force... You would have felt that tire on a Diesel Truck... My advice to anyone with a vibration problem... have the set road forced and refuse any tire/wheel combo with more than 10 pounds of force.... Watch the process and ask for a copy of the before and after report. Do this and your problem is soved. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Will the Road Force Balance need to be done every 3-5k miles, or will a common weight balance work from then on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 For the benefit of this thread, Al is a ASE and GM certified master tech for a Chevy dealer in the Cleveland area. It will be interesting to see how he tackles this problem. He has already focused on the tires, and is looking to get rid of them due to them requiring 3 ounces of weight feeling its excessive, which was confirmed by Michelin.. Al, could road force balancing offset the requirement that you are needing to add so much weight. My impression is that road force balance solves elipitical or tires that are out of balance causing the tire to sort of bounce on the road. What is your experience with this, can tires be too badly unbalanced or shaped that balancing will not correct the problem. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Will the Road Force Balance need to be done every 3-5k miles, or will a common weight balance work from then on? It is tempting to have them re-balanced, but not really needed. I won't touch mine as long as they are riding well. I still recommend rotating them, and sometimes that will cause one to be felt again due to the position change, but IF you do have them rebalanced, it should be a road force balance. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 For the benefit of this thread, Al is a ASE and GM certified master tech for a Chevy dealer in the Cleveland area. It will be interesting to see how he tackles this problem. He has already focused on the tires, and is looking to get rid of them due to them requiring 3 ounces of weight feeling its excessive, which was confirmed by Michelin.. Al, could road force balancing offset the requirement that you are needing to add so much weight. My impression is that road force balance solves elipitical or tires that are out of balance causing the tire to sort of bounce on the road. What is your experience with this, can tires be too badly unbalanced or shaped that balancing will not correct the problem. Yes, it will be interesting. Judging from the number of people reporting dissatisfaction with the ride of these cars over the years, it will be nice to see if an ASE certified mechanic can get GM to revise their acceptabe limit for road force to under 10#. As to your second point, I'd say it that there would be a chance that a road force balance of the same tire and rim combination MIGHT take less weight to balance, or MORE. In other words a random occurrance. Notice OxnySTS's statement: A "0" road force tire/wheel is way better then a tire that take 0 Oz. to balance... On my car I have one Michelin Pilot A/S that took 2.75 Oz to balance... But it road forced at only 2 pounds... best of my set... (2,5,7&8lbs) BTW the 8 pound tire was the easiest of the set to weight balance taking only 0.5 Oz.... But before the Road Force adjustment it was over 20 pounds of road force... You would have felt that tire on a Diesel Truck... The two "balances" are completely different, and most likely not related BUT one COULD affect the other if the HEAVY spot was different from the HIGH spot on a rotating combination. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Thanks Johnny, I understand, I was not sure I was being clear, but from your response I can see you understood what I was saying... Thanks Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Will the Road Force Balance need to be done every 3-5k miles, or will a common weight balance work from then on? Short answer No. Road Force Balance (RFB) attempts to match any high spot on the rim with the "softest" or squishiest (low spot) part of the tire... Or as the tire spins the amount of force that it exerts on the road is balanced. So unless the tire slips on the rim and changes it relative location... You will never need to repeat this procedure on a street car. Rims do slip sometimes on 8 second drag racers... But this never happens on a street car... Weight balancing attempts to even out the centrifugal force that a heavy or light part of the of the tire/wheel might have... Which can also impact the amount of force that a tire can exert on the road... On a RFB machine this step is done second. If you watch the process you will see that the RFB is done with a big drum that squashes the tire as it spins somewhat slowly... Normal weight balancing is done at quite a high speed. As a tire wears out sometime (but rarely) some heavier rubber can be worn away from one side of a time vs another... This could require a new weight balance... But again this is very rare... Re-balancing tires (either weight or RFB) is almost always not required and is offered by tire companies/dealerships as an attempt to "sell-up" and provide services that are not needed. Balancing a tire over and over does nothing to extend a tires life. Only re-balance if it is shaking. Or, If it ain't broke.... Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwing17 Posted August 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 GM's reccomendation of road force is 18# or less.readings of 12# or less are recommended for"sensitive" customers! Unquote! One of the biggest reasons that GM quit putting Eagle RS-A's on the Caddys,and went w/Michelin We had a BIG problem when the Silverado's came out in '99 w/the hydroformed frame and Good Year tires. Most of them shook so bad,they would vibrate your arm on the console! And this was on the new car prep drive. GM bought a LOT of those tires back,and I assume more so on the Cadillac's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Will the Road Force Balance need to be done every 3-5k miles, or will a common weight balance work from then on? Short answer No. Road Force Balance (RFB) attempts to match any high spot on the rim with the "softest" or squishiest (low spot) part of the tire... Or as the tire spins the amount of force that it exerts on the road is balanced. So unless the tire slips on the rim and changes it relative location... You will never need to repeat this procedure on a street car. Rims do slip sometimes on 8 second drag racers... But this never happens on a street car... Weight balancing attempts to even out the centrifugal force that a heavy or light part of the of the tire/wheel might have... Which can also impact the amount of force that a tire can exert on the road... On a RFB machine this step is done second. If you watch the process you will see that the RFB is done with a big drum that squashes the tire as it spins somewhat slowly... Normal weight balancing is done at quite a high speed. As a tire wears out sometime (but rarely) some heavier rubber can be worn away from one side of a time vs another... This could require a new weight balance... But again this is very rare... Re-balancing tires (either weight or RFB) is almost always not required and is offered by tire companies/dealerships as an attempt to "sell-up" and provide services that are not needed. Balancing a tire over and over does nothing to extend a tires life. Only re-balance if it is shaking. Or, If it ain't broke.... Costco rotates & balances my Michelins at no charge. The last 2 times I've taken it in for rotations, the tires were out of balance as well (shimmy at 65). I'm due for another rotation, and they are needing another balance (slight shimmy on the highway). They use taped weights (the chrome rims are too pretty for outside lead weights), and maybe they fall off, reason why they go out of balance, not sure. They stated tires have a tendency to go out of balance with normal wear. As long as they're doing it for free, and have my car ready when I'm done shopping, I'm happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I use Costco also, they put the weights on the inside of my wheels. I like the free rotate and balance service, it makes a big difference, last time I was there they sealed the bead and stopped a slow leak.... I love feeling that riding on glass ride I get with newly balanced tires.. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I use Costco also, they put the weights on the inside of my wheels. I like the free rotate and balance service, it makes a big difference, last time I was there they sealed the bead and stopped a slow leak.... I love feeling that riding on glass ride I get with newly balanced tires.. Do they use taped weights or lead? They put the tapes on the inside of my wheels as well. What if weight is needed on the outside of the wheel, but you don't want lead showing - I guess taped weights are the only option then? I believe they position some of my taped weights closer to the outside of the wheel, but still on the inside (but I could be mistaken). Mike, I agree, there's nothing like that "Caddy Smoothness"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I have instructed them to never put weights on the outside of the wheel as some idiot scratched my wheels once. So I dont see weights on the outside, and I requested the lead weights not the stick on. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 GM's reccomendation of road force is 18# or less.readings of 12# or less are recommended for"sensitive" customers! I'm glad that GM is FINALLY admiting that there was an issue with these tires... members of this forum have known this for over 4 years... It is interesting that GM recommends 18# WOW thats a lot... even the Hunter machine fails tires over 15#! If this is the case that would explain why some members have been unhappy with the RFB process... you are DEFINATELY going to feel a 18 pounder!!! you are PROBABLY going to feel a 12 pounder... I would add the just about every Seville owner is "sensitive". The car is so quiet and so smooth at city speeds you become instantly aware to any change. Add to that that this car is GM's Flagship model... If you pay a big price for a car you don't expect it to shake at normal highway speeds.. The next thing I like to have GM admit is that the life expectance of the 00, 01, 02 and some 03 Crank Sensor ain't what it should be and to bring all of those North*s back in for a free replacement... GM could go a long way to revercing their "percention" problem that Bob Lutz has started to focus on by recognizing their mistakes and fixing them. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I have instructed them to never put weights on the outside of the wheel as some idiot scratched my wheels once. So I dont see weights on the outside, and I requested the lead weights not the stick on. Aren't there times when you need weight on the outside of the wheel? I believe that's why they put taped weights on (they are on the inside of the wheel, and you can't see them, but are closer to the outside of the wheel). Or am I wrong here, and can they use lead weights, all crimped on the inside of the wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Aren't there times when you need weight on the outside of the wheel. I believe that's why they put taped weights on (they are on the inside of the wheel, and you can't see them, but are closer to the outside of the wheel). Or am I wrong here, and can they use lead weights, all on the inside of the wheel? Not really... On a weight balance you are just trying to make the wheel tire "equally" heavy all of the way around...and to some degree side to side. Most modern balance machines can balance a wheel /tire with weight only on the outside, only on the inside, only "stick on" in the middle... or any combination of the three... The advantage of weight on the rim is that the further out from the middle the weight goes, the greater effect it has and as a result the less you need... On some cars the clearance between the suspension/brakes bits and the wheel make the inside rim or stick on ones impossible... The outside ones are ugly and if they don't scratch they do hold dirt and moisture against the chrome/aluminum and will leave a "pitted" spot when the are removed... I actually like the stick on ones... I've never had one of these let go... unlike the rim ones centrifugal force actually helps holds these one... the rim ones (inside or outside) have to fight against this force. Having said all of that, the more restrictions you put on the machine the harder it is to balance a wheel and the more weight you will need... And lots of weight makes some customers "tense"... I have one wheel on my Olds 442 with 6 Oz! on it... But this was mounting "Scab" tires with only middle stick-on lead... My tire guy tried to talk me out of this... But the wheel/tire is smooth... No vibrations... Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epricedright Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 The outside ones are ugly and if they don't scratch they do hold dirt and moisture against the chrome/aluminum and will leave a "pitted" spot when the are removed... Exactly! That's why I demand no weights on the outside, especially on these pretty azz wheels! I guess I'll stick w/ the stick-ons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 As Onyx mentioned it doesn't matter whether they are on the inside or outside, they put them on both sides when they cant put enough weight on one side of the wheel.. I might ask for the stick on weights now, I didn't know they were that good... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 As with everything else there is a catch to sticky weights... The wheel needs to be clean on the inside... Many tire technicians don't take the time to clean the wheel..... If they don't they will come unstuck... Otherwise you will be fine. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwing17 Posted August 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 For the benefit of this thread, Al is a ASE and GM certified master tech for a Chevy dealer in the Cleveland area. It will be interesting to see how he tackles this problem. He has already focused on the tires, and is looking to get rid of them due to them requiring 3 ounces of weight feeling its excessive, which was confirmed by Michelin.. Al, could road force balancing offset the requirement that you are needing to add so much weight. My impression is that road force balance solves elipitical or tires that are out of balance causing the tire to sort of bounce on the road. What is your experience with this, can tires be too badly unbalanced or shaped that balancing will not correct the problem. The amount was nearly the same,spin and road force balancers.The problem lies in the construction of the tires. The Hunter machine will tell you if you need to match mark the tire to the rim,to eliminate any excessive runout,the biggest reason it costs more money. Once the tire is matched to the rim,then rebalance,if the road force is excessive,then the tire is junk.And even new tires can fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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