Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 OK- I don't know how else to describe this. If I didn't know anything about this car, and I heard it try to start, I would say it has jumped time or some plug wires are switched. BUT- I drove the car every day. The day I parked it where it sits, it was running fine. (Insert water pump scene here) I tried tightening hose clamps and things like that- cranked it up a few more times to check for leaks... Then after the water pump comedy- it won't start. I installed the new FPR, and still does the same thing (see my post "FPR Question") When I hit the starter, it backfires then nothing. Not one of those "muffler exploding backfires", but a "blackcat firecracker in the intake manifold backfire". Then the tricky part- After the smoke clears, while I'm cranking on it, the car says, "You suuuuck, you suuuuck, you suuuuck, you suuuuck, you suuuuck, you suuuuck!" You know how one does when you get a plug wire out of order... BUT two days ago, it said "you suck" then it fired up and ran for appoximately 6.247 seconds, and faded away. If it was out of time, how could it have run like that? How can it be out of time when it has just sat there? How can it jump time, by removing a radiator hose?? I can try to start this thing for about 10 or 15 secs and it will nearly drain my battery. Every time I describe this to someone in person, they all say that it sounds like it's out of time. I would say the same thing if I hadn't heard it run the other day. WHAT IS THIS?? Thanks again- Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Northstars don't go out of time. The cams are run by chains and there is no physical distributor. There are a lot of things it could be, from wet plug wires to bad crankshaft position sensors to connector problems, or even a bad engine control module. Based on your description, I would say that coolant on the coils or plug wires has brought out a problem with the plug wires. The codes will tell the tale. Do you know how to get the codes? Check for current and history codes and post them here. You can read how to get your on-board diagnostic (OBD) codes on this CaddyInfo page: http://www.caddyinfo.com/readingcodes.html -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Whew! That's a relief!! Thanks Jim. I do know how to get the codes and I'll dang sure do it. I tell you what- I'd be lost without this group. You're the best! Thank You- Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 While it's theoretically possible that the cams have gone out of time (jumped chain), I've never heard of that problem. Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and check for moisture. It should be DRY. If it's wet, you are getting fuel past the regulator diaphram and it's flooding the engine. Have you tried starting it with the accelerator to the floor? That will help clear the fuel and may get it running. Just let off if/when the engine fires. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I just put a new regulator on it yesterday. I did try it with the pedal to the floor, but it's turning over so slow and irregular that it probably wouldn't fire off anyway. Jim mentioned the coil getting wet- what do I do if that's the case? Is the coil ruined? It's right there on the front of the block so you would think rain would do that! Can it be dried out? I won't be able to get the codes until tonight. If it's a moisture thing- what do I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 If it's wet coils, remove them one by one. Make note of where the plug wires go. Blow out the contacts on the bottom as well as the plug tower on top with compressed air, then give them a shot of WD40. You said that it turns over very slowly. Check the battery voltage on the DIC. Perhaps it is just a battery with a dead cell. And as Jim said, pull the DTC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I would try the simple solution first -- hose it off with a nozzle on high-pressure stream, then let it dry with the hood up for an hour or two, perhaps with a little help from a hair dryer. That will get the anti-freeze out of it. If it still does it, take the coils off and clean them like Ranger says. I would have new plug wires handy if I had the coils off. A problem wouldn't be happening because of water if the plug wires don't have cracks or leaks at the connectors. That's just me though; I change throw-away parts whenever I see them. Let's see the codes. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I guess the anti-freeze leaves such a residue that even if it's dry, it's not going to work right. So I need to get that out of there and then get the straight water dried out. Right? I remember when I took the cover off of the water pump how all that stuff ran down in that area, so this sounds like you've got it pegged. I sure hope that's it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 If water does cause a problem, then the plug wires need to be changed. It shouldn't happen. Remeber what RangerA said. I'm just recommending a quick check and/or temporary fix until you get a set of plug wires. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 If the vehicle is turning over slowly, double and triple check the battery connections. A loose battery connection can cause a hard to start condition that emulates other problems. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonie77 Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 When you try to start it again give it a shot of starting spray. See if it starts up. You may have a fuel pressure problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 The Northstar intake has a blow off valve. It is there to protect the intake during backfires. That being said, I think there have been some damaged valves after a backfire, that can also cause this problem. They either do not reseat correctly, or get damaged. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.logandieselusa.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Every time it pops like that, it blows the orange seal off the valve door. I take the PS pump off, re-seat the seal, replace the pump, kit the key and POP! lather rinse repeat...That's getting old. I took my battery in last night (3 yr free replacement) and got a new one, so maybe we can start figuring out something. What happens when the gasket on the pop off valve is not seated right? Anything? The valve seems to be working fine... Jeff WAIT A MINUTE... when you say the coil, you are talking about where the plug wires go back near the firewall on the passenger side? I was thinking right in the middle of the front side of the block, below the valve cover- between the block and the radiator... what is that?? No plug wires there. That's what I was thinking may have gotten wet. I don't see how any of the plug wires got wet... what about a hard rain with the hood not closed all the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 You hit the key and the valve pops open immediately if not sooner? Is that what you are saying? I would look into the possibility of fuel vapor in the intake manifold that is being sparked off by the starter motor and solenoid contacts. The sparks are normal but the fuel vapor is not. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Yes Sir, that's exactly it. I mean it pops off before you ever hear the motor turn over. I would say sooner than immediately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Locate the source of fuel and there are only 9 possibilities. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 nine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Eight fuel injectors plus one fuel pressure regulator. Nine O rings. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I got ya. Dumb me... So if an injector is leaking, is it a bad o-ring? If it's a bad o-ring, is that all I have to replace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 If you find an injector is leaking, replace the injector; do not waste your time trying to remove whatever build up is causing the injector to not seal closed. You will have to lift the intake manifold while leaving all the fuel plumbing connected. Turn the key ON but DO NOT go to START. The pump will pressurize the fuel rail and you can inspect each injector for dripping fuel. But first, I would start with your fuel pressure regulator. You said you replaced yours but I would double check that regulator and installation before lifting the intake manifold. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Well, I have the codes, and NOW my fuel pump does not work!! When I cranked on it yesterday the pump "buzzed" when I turned the key AND there was obviously fuel at the engine or it wouldn' backfire like did!! I took the battery off last night- swapped it in on a new one- put the new battery on TODAY and the fuel pump quit. I put a pressure gauge on the rail to check the pressure and never heard it buzz and never moved the hand on the gauge!!!!!!!!!! So here are the codes: All history of course... P0603 B1552 B1340 B1348 C1255 B2115 B2118 B2119 NOW HOW DO I GET TO THE PUMP- PLEASE TELL ME IT'S THROUGH THE TRUNK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Nope, not on the '97 I don't think. Several years later, they put an access panel in the trunk, but I think the '97 has to have the tank dropped, but check first. If it has an access panel, it will be in back on the passenger side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 P0603 B1552 B1340 B1348 C1255 B2115 B2118 B2119 NOW HOW DO I GET TO THE PUMP- PLEASE TELL ME IT'S THROUGH THE TRUNK. P0603 - Control Module Long Term Memory Reset B1552 - Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error B1340 - Air Mix Door One Movement Fault B1348 - Very Low A/C Refrigerant Pressure C1255 - EBCM Internal Malfunction B2115 - Recline Sensor Failed B2118 - Front Vertical Sensor Failed B2119 - Lumbar Forward/Aft Sensor Failed Most apparently are a result of the battery change. You are low on Freon. You may have a problem with the power seat, or you may have simply moved the seat against the stops. Factory maual page 6-264 shows the fuel pump circuit. There is a fuel pump relay in the egine compartment fule/relay center. Ther eis a 20A fuel pump fuse.Check the white wire at termina A1 on the relay for voltage. It becomes a gray wire in the harness when it gets to the fuel pump. The ground goes through connector C415 to ground S420. There is a Fuel Cut-Off Mode. I don't know how it's invoked but it's got to be an engine cut-off mode. The only one I knew of was the rev limiter. The governor wouldn't do that because it would damage the engine. If it's invoked, it could account for many of your symptoms. You have to drop the tank to get at the fuel sending unit and the fuel pump. The fact that you don't have any active codes is interesting. I would turn on the ignition, click the starter, and check the codes again while the key is still on. Give the three-letter prefix before the codes, too, if you are getting that. The one-letter prefixes are: "B" Body Codes -- B0001 - B4000 "C" Chassis Codes -- C0000 - C1800 "P" Powertrain Codes -- P0016 - P2800 "U" Network Codes -- U0001 - U2200 Reference: http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/dtcobd2.html -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Thanks fellas- I'll go to work and get back witcha... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 i know when my fuel pump failed, the engine cranked fine. no erratic cranking or anything that made it seem to be out of time. i pulled the pump and had corrosion on the wire harness. that was annoying to drop the tank and find i had a good pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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