Spurlee Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 The A/C cmpressor clutch finally went out on my '96 Eldorado ETC, and a month after that the "LOW REFRIGERANT" warning came on. I'm opting to get a new compressor probably from these guys - they seem reputable and reasonable ( http://stores.ebay.com/Car-Compressors ). Is it wise to replace the dryer/accumulator and the exchanger while I'm at it? I really don't think the compressor spit parts into the system, just the clutch went. But, I don't know for sure. I can get the entire system from these guys for about the same price as the compressor from the local parts place... Thanks. Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 If you are sure that it is only the clutch that went, then why replace everything else? You can do the clutch without venting the system. Kevin is the A/C expert here. See what he has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 The A/C cmpressor clutch finally went out on my '96 Eldorado ETC, and a month after that the "LOW REFRIGERANT" warning came on. I'm opting to get a new compressor probably from these guys - they seem reputable and reasonable ( http://stores.ebay.com/Car-Compressors ). Is it wise to replace the dryer/accumulator and the exchanger while I'm at it? I really don't think the compressor spit parts into the system, just the clutch went. But, I don't know for sure. I can get the entire system from these guys for about the same price as the compressor from the local parts place... Thanks. Why not just replace the clutch if that is what is bad??? Is the current clutch bad or just not kicking in when the A/C is requested? If you could provide some additional information, that would be helpful in diagnosing and repairing the problem. I looked at the compressors on that site...they look like China knockoffs to me. The ad states they are filled with PAG-100 oil and that iit is compatable with R-12 and R-134a...PAG-100 is the wrong viscosity oil for your application. You need high viscosity (PAG-150) oil so whatever crud is shipped in the compressor will need to be drained and flushed with PAG-150 oil. Just for the record, PAG oil is not compatable with R-12 in any way... If the case seals are not leaking, you might just need a new shaft seal. A shaft seal is $15 and takes an hour to R&R with the compressor on the vehicle. The trick is trying to find a good A/C shop that is willing to replace the seal. A lot of A/C shops these days are just compressor swappers and you pay the price... My advice is to stay away from chain store reman compressors - they are typically junk and will fail prematurely at the most inconvenient time. Many times the clutch gap is not set properly and the units chatter when the clutch is not engaged - I have reset a number of clutch gaps for friends who have purchased reman compressors at chain stores. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 I bought mine direct from Cadillac, it was made by Delphi (now in bankrupcy), I bought it about a year ago from www.gmotors.com for about $260.... Kevin and Ranger are right about changing the hub assembly and clutch coil if that is all that is wrong with it, on my 96, the pulley bearing self-destructed and overheated the clutch coil and shorted it out. So if you have a bad bearing, fix it fast before you do further damage. Besides hurting the coil you will damage the seal and lose refrigerant. If your coil overheats it blows the AC COMP fuse, that fuse controls the compressor clutch, COOLING FANS and horns... Here is what mine looked like after overheating. If you want to eliminate your compressor from the serpentine belt circuit, the part number is 6K739. That is what I did last winter, I used a shorter belt and by-passed the compressor. Notice in the photo that I have the compressor power plug detached, it got to the point where it was blowing fuses and taking out my cooling fans. Here is my thread from last year: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...c=2068&hl=6k739 I did my own compressor, condenser, accumulator, o-rings, orifice tube, a couple of sensors and total system flush, but I could not have done it without Kevin (KHE), he is our AC expert. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Thanks guys, I dind't expect such an great response. Here's some more information... For probably 2 years and 30,000 miles the clutch was rattling loudly when not engaged and silent when running. The A/C worked fine all that time. Last winter I noticed it quit rattling and I saw it wasn't kicking in at all. That was the situation until 6 months later when the LOW REF. light came on. Other than that there have been no codes or fuse problems. I don't think anytihing cooked. Ranger - What's the situation with just replacing the clutch? I had assumed that it was almost as cheap to replace the entire unit. I'm usually a DIY guy but this job looks daunting and what with needing to open the A/C system to remove the compressor I was going to take it to a shop. (yes, they're a plug-and-play swap place but they'll plug in the parts I provide). I understand I can just replace the clutch without cracking the system open. I'd like to learn more about that process. I'm wondering if the LOW REF. light was just a normal occurance with 120,000 and 10 years on the car or if I created a leak somehow by ignoring the clutch situation for a year. Thanks Greatly - this is a great site, much better than the others I go to for my other toys. Scott Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 I have never had the "pleasure" of R & R-ing a clutch but I know it can be done on the car without opening up the system. I do believe you need a special puller. I'll let Kevin give you more details. I think Scotty has done it also. After 120K and 10 yrs. it is not uncommon to need a top of. R12 molecules are very small and R134a are even smaller so they will seep from the smalles of places even in a good system over the coarse of 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Thanks. I'll check out where and how much a replacement clutch costs. Looks awuful tight, though... Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 the clutch was rattling loudly when not engaged and silent when running. The A/C worked fine all that time. Last winter I noticed it quit rattling and I saw it wasn't kicking in at all. That was the situation until 6 months later when the LOW REF. light came on. Other than that there have been no codes or fuse problems. I don't think anytihing cooked. I wouldn't run out and buy a clutch yet. The compressor is disabled to protect it due to the low refrigerant charge. Check the air gap between the outer clutch plate and the inner plate - it should be .020-.030". Too small of a gap will cause it to make noise when the A/C is not engaged. Too large of a gap will prevent it from engaging. If the air gap is OK, the pulley bearing may need replacing - this can be done with the compressor on the car and you do not need to mess with the refrigerant charge. The bearing can be purchased at a bearing supply house for less than $10. You can also buy the pulley with the bearing already installed but it's more money. Before replacing anything, check to make sure the body of the compressor is not all oily/greasy. That is indicitive of a case seal leak. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Check this thread there is some good information regarding the pulley and coil removal within it. Epricedright is doing the pulley hub and the coil as we speak, I sent him the R&R tool last week, Mike http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...ic=7642&hl=tool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Check this thread there is some good information regarding the pulley and coil removal within it. Epricedright is doing the pulley hub and the coil as we speak, I sent him the R&R tool last week, Mike http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...ic=7642&hl=tool Keep in mind that epricedright's car has a 4.9 by the way, the R&R concept is the same however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 the clutch was rattling loudly when not engaged and silent when running. The A/C worked fine all that time. Last winter I noticed it quit rattling and I saw it wasn't kicking in at all. That was the situation until 6 months later when the LOW REF. light came on. Other than that there have been no codes or fuse problems. I don't think anytihing cooked. I wouldn't run out and buy a clutch yet. The compressor is disabled to protect it due to the low refrigerant charge. Check the air gap between the outer clutch plate and the inner plate - it should be .020-.030". Too small of a gap will cause it to make noise when the A/C is not engaged. Too large of a gap will prevent it from engaging. If the air gap is OK, the pulley bearing may need replacing - this can be done with the compressor on the car and you do not need to mess with the refrigerant charge. The bearing can be purchased at a bearing supply house for less than $10. You can also buy the pulley with the bearing already installed but it's more money. Before replacing anything, check to make sure the body of the compressor is not all oily/greasy. That is indicitive of a case seal leak. I thought the clutch might be disabled - I tried to "jump" it by forcing a connection through the high side pressure switch (this works on my '93 Chevy truck w/350) but it wouldn't fire up. And, the LOW REF. warning came on quite some time after the clutch was disabled/broken. Though, a $12 can of freon fixed the truck just fine - maybe I should try it here. I just looked - the compressor clean and dry. Why are the lines so hot? It's been off for weeks? I'll look at the links for the process - I'm guessing a wheel and some plastic removal will give some access. Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 The compressor being clean and dry is a good sign - the case seals are probably OK. The system has disabled the A/C compressor to prevent it from damage due to the low refrigerant condition. Low refrigerant = low amount of oil circulating in the system = compressor damage. Hook up a can of R-134a to the system, burp the air from the charging hose, enter diannostics and clear the low refrigerant code, and then start the car - the refrigerant will be pulled in before the code sets and locks out the compressor. If clearing the code from while in diagnostics doesn't give you enougn time, just disconnect the negative battery lead for a few seconds instead of clearing the codes from diagnostic mode. Did you check the clutch plate air gap to make sure it was to spec? Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 The compressor being clean and dry is a good sign - the case seals are probably OK. The system has disabled the A/C compressor to prevent it from damage due to the low refrigerant condition. Low refrigerant = low amount of oil circulating in the system = compressor damage. Hook up a can of R-134a to the system, burp the air from the charging hose, enter diannostics and clear the low refrigerant code, and then start the car - the refrigerant will be pulled in before the code sets and locks out the compressor. If clearing the code from while in diagnostics doesn't give you enougn time, just disconnect the negative battery lead for a few seconds instead of clearing the codes from diagnostic mode. Did you check the clutch plate air gap to make sure it was to spec? I'm away from my tools during the week when I live away from home - I'll check the clearance over the weekend. And charge the system I always thought the pump needs to run to draw the freon into the system - true or not? Right now the pump won't come on at all - will the can pressure be enough to trip the pump on? Codes are clear. In fact, I didn't get a LOW REF signal when I tried to put it on. Just nothing. Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 I always thought the pump needs to run to draw the freon into the system - true or not? Right now the pump won't come on at all - will the can pressure be enough to trip the pump on? Codes are clear. In fact, I didn't get a LOW REF signal when I tried to put it on. Just nothing. Yes - the compressor must run to pull in the refrigerant - clearing the code and having the refrigerant hooked up will allow it to draw in the refrigerant. You should verify that the system has at least a partial charge before adding additional refrigerant. If the system is empty, you will need to find/repair the leak and then have the system evacuated with a vacuum pump to remove the air and moisture from the system. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Thanks Kevin - I'll have to do some checking this weekend. I'm suspicious that I can't jump the compressor on, makes me think the clutch is shot. I cleared the codes, if it won't come on I'll give up the charge-to-fix-it approach. Thanks again Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe you have to jump it at the low pressure switch (near the accumulator), not the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Thanks Kevin - I'll have to do some checking this weekend. I'm suspicious that I can't jump the compressor on, makes me think the clutch is shot. I cleared the codes, if it won't come on I'll give up the charge-to-fix-it approach. Thanks again Above you said you jumped the high side. You need to jump the low pressure switch see #13. This is from a 96 manual, it applies to your 96 Eldo also You can access the compressor through the wheel well and by taking the inspection covers off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurlee Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 My mistake, that's the one I was jumping...I'm going to look the whole issue over more closely this weekend, fuses, etc. The picture is great, thanks - This is a great resource. Scott Scott 1996 El Dorado 2006 STS 2000 Corvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 My mistake, that's the one I was jumping...I'm going to look the whole issue over more closely this weekend, fuses, etc. The picture is great, thanks - This is a great resource. Scott Have you checked to see if your AC is throwing any additional codes after you disconnect the battery? I had to replace two sensors after my system gave me a low refrigerant code for about 6 months, the low pressure switch was bad (you jumped it) and Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor, check for codes if you have not already.. Mike PS, here is the thread from my AC repair (good bedtime reading to put you to sleep) http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5846&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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