vicadams22 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Purchased my used SRX with 44,000 miles on it a year ago. For most of the past year, I have dealt with the check engine light. 3 out of 4 times, it was the catalytic converter (been replaced 3 times). Other time was low oil (oil indicator was fine by the way)... Check engine light came back on the day AFTER my last service visit (in September). Assumed it was yet another cat issue - so wasn't in a hurry to bring it in (as dealer told me no damage done). BTW, all cat visits were covered under basic emissions warranty. Finally took it in today -- they tell me the code is not cc this time, 2 codes coming up: P0446 & P0496. Rep basically told me that it's a purging issue - fuel vapors are supposed to be trapped by the canister. It's not purging anymore. Need to replace the vent valve and re-calibrate. Here's my question. He said I'm looking at least $950 for this work (which includes my 30% employee discount -- which he gives me because he feels sorry for the amount of time my car spends there)... Does this sound right? I'm no mechanic, and I'm bummed this is not related to the cc issue (because that didn't cost me anything but time and irritation). Also, on that note, when I fill my car up -- about 50% of the time it turns over but won't start. I have to turn the key again and then FLOOR it to get gas to it. I guess that likely supports what's wrong. Should I pay $950+ for this? I'm sick to my stomach. There goes my kid's Christmas. Should have kept my old '95 4-runner and put a new transmission in it. My service record file for this SRX is already twice the size of my 14 year old Toyota 4-runner. That said, this is obviously a nicer ride. Any advice you veterans can give this distressed, clueless Mom in San Diego would be great. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Check http://www.rockauto.com for the vent valve. I think the "vent valve" is a "vapor canister solenoid", except it doesn't cost anywhere near what is quoted. Do you have another local Cadillac dealer you can go to? My SI is down; have not re-installed after my hdd crash. Can someone do a search on those trouble codes and look at likely diagnostic? Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 P0446 - EVAP Vent Solenoid Valve Control System P0496 - Evaporative Emission (EVAP) System Flow During Non-Purge That's as far as I can go as I do not have an SRX Service Manual. My knee jerk thought is this Service Engine message has been miss-diagnosed from day one. Three catalytic converters?? Defies logic. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I agree with JimD about the misdiagnoses. I don't see any way it would POSSIBLY need 3 Cat converters in only one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Sounds like a bad EVAP solenoid. I can't imagine $1000 to replace it. You should be able to do that yourself. The part is only $18.48 at Rockauto. ACDELCO Part # 2142230 {replaces 214-1917 #15788844, 2141917, 25932573} VALVE,Evaporative Emission Canister VENT SOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicadams22 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi guys, I created an excel chart for my service visits over the past year. Just want to make sure you smart guys have the complete picture so you're not wasting your time in trying to help me. I know you've got better things to do with your time -- but if you could take a look and give me your input, surely good karma will come your way. My service rep seems like a good guy -- or else I'm incredibly naive. The codes were coming up as bad catalytic converter - and it's not costing me any $. But, when you pair it with the other issues (like oil consumption)-- I just wonder if they're related and there's some way I could justify this repair not coming out of my pocket. I researched this problem on the internet, and the consensus seems to be that this is in fact an expensive repair, one that a knowledgeable dealer needs to handle. Hope I'm wrong. You guys are the experts Thanks again. Cad_service_history_chart_pdf.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Where did you get the text that you wrote, are those your words or the dealers? How long after the low oil light did you stop and be told it was 4 quarts low? The oil light typically comes on when its 2 quarts low, give us the detail of when it came on etc Did you drive the car after the oil light came on?, or did you stop and put oil in? What was their explanation as to why you would be needing CATs? The last entry says that the oil light came on but the oil was not low?, is that what I read? Please find out exactly what they are going to do to repair that code, what are they going to replace. They gave you a price, so they know what you need, have them detail it. We might be able to help. Find out the parts, cost of parts and labor cost Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicadams22 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Where did you get the text that you wrote, are those your words or the dealers? How long after the low oil light did you stop and be told it was 4 quarts low? The oil light typically comes on when its 2 quarts low, give us the detail of when it came on etc Did you drive the car after the oil light came on?, or did you stop and put oil in? What was their explanation as to why you would be needing CATs? The last entry says that the oil light came on but the oil was not low?, is that what I read? Please find out exactly what they are going to do to repair that code, what are they going to replace. They gave you a price, so they know what you need, have them detail it. We might be able to help. Find out the parts, cost of parts and labor cost ----------------- The dealers words. I was in the middle of a road trip vaca w/my family with the low oil light DID come (actually, it was a message that came up on the DIC - about 4- 5 days after the SES light came). Got my car to an out of town dealer within 24 - 48 hours - so I DID drive the car (but very little). I was worried about whether I did damage -- but as you can see by the dealer's response -- he said no problem. Their explanation as to why I need cats -- they have no idea. They spoke with Cadillac directly -- and they also said it was some sort of "fluke" that they don't understand. The came cc has been replaced twice -- they said the second one was just a bad part. I had to have that problem fixed w/EVAP system. My car is getting harder and harder to start - and being a full time working mom with 2 young boys -- I don't have the time to research or $ to throw at trying to find out a cheaper way to do it. Best I could do is vent to you!! So -- they did it today and are delivering my car to me as I speak. Total cost was over $1,000. I'll let you know what parts they replaced, labor, etc. -- but it's probably now a mute point. Unless, there's something I can do after the fact to make them remedy the situation. At the very least -- I'll know I've been had and will have to find another place to go to from now on. THANKS for trying to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 My guess is something is wrong that is destroying the catalytic converters. Replacing a failed or plugged catalytic converter is only half a fix. The other half is to determine WHY the converter failed. If the engine has a stuck piston ring, and is passing oil through, the phosphorus in the oil can kill the cat. converter. That would explain the high oil use and the cat failures. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 My guess is something is wrong that is destroying the catalytic converters. Replacing a failed or plugged catalytic converter is only half a fix. The other half is to determine WHY the converter failed. If the engine has a stuck piston ring, and is passing oil through, the phosphorus in the oil can kill the cat. converter. That would explain the high oil use and the cat failures. You read my mind, I was thinking the same thing. The cause of the oil consumption must be found. Let me ask, was the car under warranty when the first CAT was replaced? Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjb981 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 My guess is something is wrong that is destroying the catalytic converters. Replacing a failed or plugged catalytic converter is only half a fix. The other half is to determine WHY the converter failed. If the engine has a stuck piston ring, and is passing oil through, the phosphorus in the oil can kill the cat. converter. That would explain the high oil use and the cat failures. You read my mind, I was thinking the same thing. The cause of the oil consumption must be found. Let me ask, was the car under warranty when the first CAT was replaced? I agree that it would be a good idea to find out what causes the CATs to fail. Do it before the warranty expires (to avoid ending up buying more CATs later). Since you have both an oil consumption issue and a CAT issue it seems plausible that there could be a connection. Maybe you could ask your dealer to check the spark plugs for you - if a lot of oil is going through some of the cylinders, it should be visible on the spark plugs of those cylinders after a while (the oil would cause deposits on the plugs). That way you could find out which cylinders use oil (if that is the case). It is important to keep track of which plug came from which cylinder - when I change my plugs, I make sure to number the old ones so that I can inspect them. I assume that your engine is not leaking oil - the dealer should have noticed that. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 to bad the evap vent solenoid is not part of the emissions system which might have been covered under the cars warranty. my friend had an early 80's car with carb that had a failed cat. the car was only 2yrs old and somehow the egr system was so fouled up it lead to a carb rebuild. the mechanic charged for the carb overhaul but the cat was free. seems to me a plugged cat might have caused the carb fouling issues. late 70's-early 80's emissions systems were rather crude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 The EVAP system IS part of the emissions system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicadams22 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 The EVAP system IS part of the emissions system. That was my FIRST question to the dealer upon hearing the bad news. I was promptly told that the EVAP system is NOT part of the emissions system, so it would NOT be covered under extended emissions warranty. Can I prove to them differently??? I just got the bill -- parts were nothing $87.95. Labor was $800! Also chg'd me $25 to ck the oil. From the beginning, I of course thought it odd about the cats. Looked on the internet -- and seemed to be a not uncommon issues with an 05 SRX. Then the oil ... also seemd to be "not an uncommon" issue with an '05 srx. And, I saw those 2 issues combined. Dealer has covered everthing (even though my 50K warranty is expired) up to now. Did this P0446 and P0496 problems occur BECAUSE of the faulty emissions system? Or, were all my other problems DUE to this problem? I just want to figure out whether I have any remedies about paying this $1000. Got rid of my old '95 trusty Toyota 4-Runner to get a newer car. Guess I picked the wrong one. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 This is all I could find at the moment for a 2005 emission warranty. Looks like to me, "ALL" of the work you just had done, should have been covered under warranty. California Emission Defect and Emission Performance Warranty Coverage For cars and trucks with light duty or medium duty emissions: • For 3 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first: − If your vehicle fails a smog check inspection, GM will make all necessary repairs and adjustments to ensure that your vehicle passes the inspection. This is your Emission Control System Performance Warranty. − If any emission related part on your vehicle is defective, GM will repair or replace it. This is your Short-term Emission Defects Warranty. • For 7 years or 70,000 miles, whichever comes first: − If an emission related part listed in this booklet specially noted with coverage for 7 years or 70,000 miles is defective, GM will repair or replace it. This is your Long-term Emission Control System Defects Warranty. • For 8 years or 80,000 miles, whichever comes first: − If the catalytic converter or vehicle (powertrain) control module is found to be defective, GM will repair or replace it under the Federal Emission Control System Warranty. • For heavy duty gasoline engine vehicles, the emission warranty period is 5 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. • For heavy duty diesel engine vehicles, the emission warranty period is 5 years, 100,000 miles, or 3,000 hours of operation, whichever comes first. Any authorized GM dealer will, as necessary under these warranties, replace, repair, or adjust to GM specifications any genuine GM parts that affect emissions. The applicable warranty period shall begin on the date the vehicle is delivered to the first retail purchaser or, if the vehicle is first placed in service as a demonstrator or company vehicle prior to sale at retail, on the date the vehicle is placed in such service. This is a partial list of parts covered under the "CALIFORNIA" 7 yr / 70,000 mile warranty. Evaporative Emission Control System (Gasoline Engines) Canister Canister Purge Solenoid Valve Canister Vent Solenoid Fuel Feed and Return Pipes and Hoses Fuel Filler Cap Fuel Limiter Vent Valve * Fuel Tank Filler Pipe (with restrictor) Fuel Tank(s) * Fuel Tank Vacuum or Pressure Sensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 On OBDII cars (1996 and later) ONLY an "emission" related code will lite the SES lamp and you will not pass an emissions test if it is illuminated. That solenoid would have illuminated the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) aka SES lamp and set the codes you had. Check you owners and warranty manual. Call a few other GM dealers and talk to the service manager and ask him if that is emission related and covered. It is most definitely an emission related item and should be covered if the car is under 7 yrs or 70,000 miles. I think they saw you coming and figured that you would not know any better. They get more money from a costumer than from GM for warranty work. Arm yourself with information and print outs and go back and speak to the service manager, general manager or owner. EDIT: OK, curiosity got the best of me. I went out and checked my warranty manual. It tells you what is covered and under "emissions" it specifically mentions the EVAP solenoid and purge valve as being covered for 7 yrs or 70,000 miles. That is mandated by the U.S. Government. Get your money back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicadams22 Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I'm going to email that info to my dealer today and let you know the outcome. THANK YOU!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I'm going to email that info to my dealer today and let you know the outcome. THANK YOU!!!!!!!! I would go down to the dealer in person and discuss the matter with the service manager and/or owner. Email is too easy to ignore or to come up with excuses. Who knows, while the dealer was charging you for the work that should have been under warranty, they could have been turning the warranty work into GM at the same time - double-dipping in effect.... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Good catch Ranger My friend has a 2009 CTS and the dealer double dipped her, charging GM while charging her... Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Good catch Ranger My friend has a 2009 CTS and the dealer double dipped her, charging GM while charging her... Time to turn that unscrupulous dealer in to GM... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I agree with KHE. Go speak to them in person. DEMAND a refund. If they refuse, THEN send an email. Save it and the response for evidence and file a complaint with the governing agency (EPA I think) and tell them in advance that you are going to do it. That may get some action. Don't overlook the BBB Auto Line 1-800-955-5100, GM Cadillac Customer Assistance Center 1-800-458-8006. These numbers are right from my owners warranty manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicadams22 Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I agree with KHE. Go speak to them in person. DEMAND a refund. If they refuse, THEN send an email. Save it and the response for evidence and file a complaint with the governing agency (EPA I think) and tell them in advance that you are going to do it. That may get some action. Don't overlook the BBB Auto Line 1-800-955-5100, GM Cadillac Customer Assistance Center 1-800-458-8006. These numbers are right from my owners warranty manual. Hey guys, My service rep provided me "the emission control system warranty per the US Clean Air Act and California Air resource board." Unfortunately, it shows that the parts they replaced (Canister Purge Solenoid Valve & Canister Vent Solenoid) fall under my 4 yr/50K warranty, NOT the 7 yr/70k warranty. My vehicle has 58k miles. Can I prove that the bad cc's (which were covered under emissions warranty) caused this new emissions-related problem to occur? I see your posts that something was definitely make those cc's go bad - but don't know how to prove a connection or where to go from here. Had my hopes up there for a minute, I'm in a rut.... thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Did you get a copy of the document they showed you and can you scan it in and post it? Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Look in your owners manual. There should be a much thinner warranty manual in the binder with it. It'll be in there. I'm not buying what they're selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 You are getting screwed and you are not even getting kissed. Emissions Warranties for 1995 and Newer Cars and Trucks EMISSION CONTROL PARTS 1. Exhaust Gas Conversion Systems: oxygen sensor, thermal reactor, catalytic converter, dual-walled exhaust pipe 2. Exhaust Gas Recirculation System: EGR valve, thermal vacuum switch, EGR solenoid, EGR spacer plate, EGR backpressure transducer, sensor and switches used to control EGR flow 3. Evaporative Emission Control System: purge valve, fuel filler cap, purge solenoid, vapor storage canister, and filter 4. Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) System: PCV valve, PCV solenoid 5. Air Injection System: Air pump diverter, bypass, or gulp valve, reed valve, anti-backfire or deceleration valve 6. Early Fuel Evaporative (EFE) System: EFE valve, thermal vacuum switch, heat riser valve 7. Fuel Metering System: electronic control module (unit) or EFI air flow meter, computer command module or mixture control unit, deceleration controls, electronic choke, fuel injectors, fuel injection units and fuel altitude compensator sensor, bars or rails for EFI or TBI systems, mixture settings on sealed fuel mixture control solenoid, diaphragm or other systems, fuel metering components that achieve closed/other feedback control sensors/loop operation switches and valves 8. Air Induction System: thermostatically controlled air cleaner, air box 9. Ignition Systems: electronic spark advance timing advance/retard systems, high energy electronic ignition 10. Miscellaneous Parts: hoses, gaskets, brackets, clamps, and other accessories used in the above systems This is all off the EPA'S site. They even tell you how to report and dispute it, but call the GM number I gave you first. http://www.epa.gov/obd/warranties.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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